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#76 17-05-07 22:53:25

ijmoore
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Who? smile


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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6



#77 12-08-07 13:45:46

hilary
Verified Member
Registered: 08-02-07
Posts: 6

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Taken on face value, this would seem to be a reasonable argument.
However, as the check test can only reflect an individual's performance over one brief, hour long period, i do not agree that it is a good way of evaluating performance on it's own.

This was the primary reason for change that lead to the abandonment of the Ordinary level school examination in the late 1980's, to the GCSE system that is in place today. A candidate may not perform so well in an examination environment as they may do on a day to day basis in the 'real world'. The GCSE examination for 16 year old students reflects this situation - a change was introduced so that students who may not perform so well 'on the day', would be more able to demonstrate their skills through course work over a much longer period, which leads to a vastly fairer assessment of an individual's skills.

We all know this can be true of our own pupils -
you know they have worked very hard,
you know they have the ability,
you know they have the relevant skills,

........ but they don't always pass.

I'm sure you will be the first to agree that this doesn't necessarily mean you are a bad instructor?!

The point is, if you base everything on one performance, on one day, you cannot possibly get an accurate assessment of an individual's ability, whether it be an ADI, a school teacher, or even the Prime Minister!

So, i'm not saying that someone who isn't a Grade 6 WILL be a good teacher of ADI's, but it doesn't mean that they WON'T be.

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#78 12-08-07 13:54:47

hilary
Verified Member
Registered: 08-02-07
Posts: 6

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

I find it amusing to read that hector agrees with the grade 6 idea on post 2, and then further along in the thread, changes his mind (which i agree with).
There's always more than one way to look at something.

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#79 12-08-07 16:23:31

Wacky
Verified Member
From: Edenbridge, Kent
Registered: 17-06-07
Posts: 47

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Hiya.... Im new on here... Ive loved reading this:dead interesting.

Since eventually passing my Part 3 over 8 years ago Ive always felt there must have been a better way to train to be an ADI. I had been an advanced driver and a qualified teacher and initially had thought that I would sail through the process!!! Haha!! I joined the BSM machine and although Parts 1 and 2 were passed easily enough, despite a lot of hard work the Part 3 process was mush to me.... Trainers taking huge delight in showboating and making clients look like idiots!! It wasnt for me and not the way I was taught to teach outside this industry!! Despite all that..... and with some privately paid for additional training I eventually made the grade, so to speak!!

During the next 5 years I tried to be the best ADI I could be.... Rospa Gold, Check Test Grade 4 then two 6's, DIA Special Test, Fleet Registered.

Just over 2 years ago I did the AA Driving Instructor Trainer course which gave me a flavour (and not much more) of what this part of the job held in store for me and the opportunity to get my foot in the door. I was lucky enough to meet a trainer there who saw the whole process in much the same way I did and it was simply inspirational.... a real lightbulb moment!!! Ive had a steady stream of trainees since and done a huge amount of research and additional training. This is now the biggest part of my business and I love it!!! The ORDIT check is in the very near future.

Going back to the original question....... I think, as others have said before, that other qualifications are more important than a Check Test Grading because its just a 'snapshot' but I do think ADI's should have at least a couple of years experience of the job, perfecting their own skills before attempting to mould others!!

Sorry to have gone on!!!!

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#80 12-08-07 17:29:59

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Hilary
I have always had the same opinion on this grade six is the least important.
(But desirable)
For example a grade six fleet instructor with zero experience of training learners could be an instructor trainer.
Other qualifications and experience count for far more.
As someone says earlier in this thread a grade 6 with a learner is very easy to achieve if you know how to deliver a grade six lesson. But thats the key knowing how to do it!


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#81 12-08-07 20:27:56

Dimmy
Guest

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

As someone says earlier in this thread a grade 6 with a learner is very easy to achieve if you know how to deliver a grade six lesson. But thats the key knowing how to do it!

So, what is there to know, and is this a big secret?  why don't so many instructors know? Who is to blame, individual Instructors or  the Instructor Trainers?

If it is so easy why so few are grade 6? More importantly , why so many being graded 4?
Yet more concerning, why so many not even reaching a 4?

Perhaps some of the answers  are because so many instructors go to check test without any further training since passing part 3.
Perhaps they do get further training but the trainers themselves can core comp learners but not instructors.
Perhaps some instructors that passed part 3 did so by being taught how to pass part 3 but have lower abilities when presented with real pupils.
Perhaps check test grading requires a certain type of lesson performance that doesn't quite match normal lesson performance.
Perhaps DSA have stats to maintain and so limit the number of 6's they award.

Perhaps I need a wider vocabulary than simply starting each sentence with "Perhaps".

Is the check test really any different to extending part 3 over a longer period of time and only 1 pupil type rather than 2?

But if any trainers out there that can claim to have a grade 6 pass rate for 80% or more of their instructors could PERHAPS enlighten us mere mortals of what warrants a Grade 6 over a grade 5 then I'm sure many of the readers would appreciate it  :evil:

Just out of interest, anyone on here get a grade 6 for their 1st check test?


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#82 12-08-07 20:51:50

Disky
Verified Member
From: Central Scotland
Registered: 10-03-05
Posts: 1,333
Website

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

can see where your coming from Dimmy, have to agree with you....

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#83 11-11-07 08:33:36

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Sorry, only just joined this thread, and felt I wanted to make a comment when I was only on page 2 so it may seem out of place now the thread has moved on a bit!

....
i am in the same boat as Marconi as my check test is a fleet check test which i think is daft i think we should have 2 check tests one for fleet and one for learners i would welcome that

Totally agree, I have thought this for ages, there are many trainers out there that ONLY teach fleet and openly admit they would struggle to teach a learner!

geebee wrote:

the other problem is they are two many different styles of training

Problem?  Surely it is a good thing there are many different styles of teaching!

geebee wrote:

they should be one national training school where the Adi trainers are employed by the government

regards  geebee

Heaven forbid!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#84 11-11-07 08:52:52

Dimmy
Guest

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Seeing as Nigel has woken this old chestnut thread, I notice no one was able to answer as yet the 2 questions I put to Trainers.

But if any trainers out there that can claim to have a grade 6 pass rate for 80% or more of their instructors could PERHAPS enlighten us mere mortals of what warrants a Grade 6 over a grade 5 then I'm sure many of the readers would appreciate it  :evil:

Just out of interest, anyone on here get a grade 6 for their 1st check test?

So perhaps I aimed too high, how about 60% or more of their instructors gaining Grade 6?  I'd settle for some nuggets of wisdom as to the "secrets" of gaining a grade 6 over a grade 5.

#85 11-11-07 08:57:27

ijmoore
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
Website

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Interesting points Dimmy (as always!)

The first is interesting, why are so many CT been graded at grade 4 or lower?! Scary I think, I haven't had a check test yet, but its due soon!  Even so, I intend to get some training first!

Its quite scary how many poor instructor trainers their are and how few excellent ones their are....its just like the whole industry! Thing is as said before there are good and poor grade 4s and their are good and poor grade 6s! 

Brilliant comment re: instructors been taught to pass part 3 and not to deal with real pupils.....this is often the case, but this comes down to good training and experience!

So if the training is inconsistant, its not suprising that the drivers are so inconsistant on the road! Not that we should all be taught the SAME word for word parrot fashion....but that there should be some common standards!  ORDIT is great, but not the be all and end all.....should be some mimimum standard system though!


Fleet Training
Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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#86 11-11-07 09:48:43

whodareswins
Verified Member
From: S.E.England
Registered: 12-04-06
Posts: 550

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Just out of interest, anyone on here get a grade 6 for their 1st check test?

Yes - ME!!

Percy


Grade 6 ADI/Fleet Trainer, SAFED Registered Trainer, Qualified BTEC Assessor

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#87 11-11-07 11:41:11

Lily-Anne
Verified Member
From: Northampton
Registered: 21-05-07
Posts: 606
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

I'm not sure check testing is a good way to analise performance.  I know of two people who picked up a grade six using their partner after rehersing what mistakes they would make and the rectification of it.

I hate c/t situations, although you do forget the SE is in the back, I do wonder if it is a true reflection of my teaching skills.  Or who you have marking you and what they are looking for.


http://www.centraladitraining.co.uk
BA, Dip Di, Cardington 'A', NLP Practitioner using coaching as a life skill.
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#88 11-11-07 14:19:48

Lily-Anne
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From: Northampton
Registered: 21-05-07
Posts: 606
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

I agree with that, but you only have to gauge the reaction of the introduction of hpt to see the battle to keep a standard.

I am currently doing the Cardington drive, and taking my fleet badge because I don't just want to be good I want to be the best, but motivation comes from within, and not all people are self-motivated.  Complacency is a bad thing.

I have a good pass rate with trainees and pupils, but I hate test situations myself, my nerves when a pdi or learner go to test are second to none, even though I am a confident person.


http://www.centraladitraining.co.uk
BA, Dip Di, Cardington 'A', NLP Practitioner using coaching as a life skill.
http://www.aicoachingsolutions.com

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#89 09-01-08 22:56:18

billrhoades
Verified Member
From: Northampton
Registered: 28-11-07
Posts: 184

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

C/T !!!!!!!!! I feel cheated. Was told well in advanced by other ADIs what my grade would be. Three and half years after quailifying I had my educational!!
Debrief I was thinking " this is good", felt lesson went really well. Pupil asking questions non stop and not pre test promted either.
SE had nothing but praise in debrief then  ,,,,,,,,,,,, Well done grade 4, see you next year.
Grade I was told I would get by other instructors!!
Im seriously thinking/want to be Instructor trainer, anyone out there who is a trainer want to tell me Ive passed ORDIT . Sarcastic I know but thats how I feel.

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#90 10-01-08 08:05:42

ijmoore
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From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

How much training did you have before your ct? out of interest.


Fleet Training
Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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#91 10-01-08 08:57:51

billrhoades
Verified Member
From: Northampton
Registered: 28-11-07
Posts: 184

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

I had 40 hours training with Mentor(complete waste of time/money) Then I found an ADI through RoSPA training I was doing who taught/showed me more in 3 hours than Mentor did in 40. Had 60 hours training with Stan Heggs, Precision Driving and Roadcraft Driving School. Worked with Stan for approx a year before going on my own.
My pass rates in 3 t/c are above average in 2 out of the 3 t/c.
I dont take a lot of notice of pass rates though , just use all tests to check my instructional techniques, i.e. make sure minors are not repetitive across the tests.

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#92 10-01-08 09:10:43

Dimmy
Guest

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

But if any trainers out there that can claim to have a grade 6 pass rate for 80% or more of their instructors could PERHAPS enlighten us mere mortals of what warrants a Grade 6 over a grade 5 then I'm sure many of the readers would appreciate it  :evil:

Perhaps I aimed too high, 60%

Still no nuggets of wisdom, so can I retry with perhaps trainers with a 40% pass rate at Grade 6 ?

How low will I have to go before a trainer considers they are able to explain what makes a grade 6 ?

Or is it that Trainers are secretive and defensive of their knowledge and do not wish to share?
Or perhaps that Trainers simply do not know, or are unsure and do not wish to appear foolish by stating something that other trainers would disagree with?


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#93 10-01-08 17:40:10

whodareswins
Verified Member
From: S.E.England
Registered: 12-04-06
Posts: 550

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Here is my input for what it's worth.

I am not an ADI Trainer so I find that the simplest way to describe what is required (on a C/T) to achieve a Grade 6 is stated in the ADI 1.

Overall performance to a very high standard with no significant instructional weaknesses. Concise accurate recap given on the previous lesson and realistic, attainable objectives set for the current lesson. There was dialogue, with pupil involvement. Consistently demonstrated the ability to vary/select the most appropriate instructional techniques as necessary to suit the needs, aptitude and ability of the pupil.
Quick to recognise and address all the important driving faults and provided thoroughly sound analysis, with clear, prompt and appropriate remedial action. An appropriate route chosen for the pupil’s ability and experience and took every opportunity to develop the pupil’s driving skills and awareness using the problems presented en-route.
Structured an appropriate learning environment that positively encouraged the pupil to further develop their skills and good driving practice. The lesson concluded with a concise recap, which was an accurate overview of the lesson. The strengths and weaknesses in the pupil’s performance identified and discussed constructively. Realistic and appropriate objectives set for the next lesson. Professional attitude and approach to the pupil throughout the lesson.

You're never going to get an ADI Trainer who claims an 80%, 60% or even a 40% success rate at Grade 6. In my opinion, this is virtually impossible; at the very least, highly unlikely.

Firstly, the vast majority of trainers are teaching their trainees to pass Part 3 (where no grading is is given) and, even though the overall pass rate for Part 3 is 28%, the first-time pass rate is only about 5-6%.

For those ADI trainers who specialise on the "remedial" or C/T training the situation is virtually the same. Only 6-7% of all ADIs achieve a Grade 6. Then you have to assume that the majority of ADIs don't take any form of formal training prior to their checktest. I know I didn't.

Percy




Grade 6 ADI/Fleet Trainer, SAFED Registered Trainer, Qualified BTEC Assessor

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#94 10-01-08 20:04:10

Dimmy
Guest

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Ok, forget the pass rate then. Any nuggets of information from ANY Trainers, wether they've EVER had a trainee get a grade 6 or not, on the best methods to gaining it.

#95 11-01-08 07:47:09

ijmoore
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Surely doing everything by the book, with a passion for good teaching and road safety should be what an SE would be looking for.


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Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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#96 11-01-08 17:40:22

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

But if any trainers out there that can claim to have a grade 6 pass rate for 80% or more of their instructors could PERHAPS enlighten us mere mortals of what warrants a Grade 6 over a grade 5 then I'm sure many of the readers would appreciate it 

Dimmy are you after trainers who train PDI s and have a pass rate of 80% with grade six????


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
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#97 11-01-08 20:23:33

Dimmy
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Check test.


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#98 13-01-08 11:05:43

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Hi Dimmy

Out of the last 10 ADI's I have helped with check test preparation, 20% achieved grade six. I knew they would before taking their check tests.

Mere mortals as you put it, could achieve better results with more training. All but two of those ten only had training because of not reaching the required standard on check test.
The DSA have started to root out the dead wood in the ADI industry as part of the impending CPD. More and more grade 3's are being recorded recently, great for me im busy as a bee. And great for getting rid of sub standard instructors whch this industry needs very very badly

Not so great for ADI's who have received poor quality training in the main with little idea of how to conduct a proper driving lesson. That is the massive problem for ADI's sub-standard tuition for PST's that gets through the test and no more.

Most ADI's will not receive training and will be grade 4 throughout their careers. Some of those who do will not listen to advice so training is pointless. Most just wont have enough training. Most ADI's achieve a one grade improvement after training. If they dont its one thing that has prevented it-one ommision not a list.

To acheive a grade six cannot be achieved without training, a bit of advice will not do it- But some Adi'S  just have that mojo.

Some ADI's will never do it with a million hours training, the same as some learners will never make good drivers some Adi'S will never get grade six. As a trainer you can tell which ADI's might within a few minutes of observing a lesson.

Any ADI who is 'not bothered' about a six hasnt got a hope. And before anyone says a grade six instructor is no better than a five id agree entirely! A grade 6 just shows you know how to play the game for an hour and can handle the pressure. If you didnt know how to play the game though, you couldnt win.
Any grade 6 could easily b alls up and go down to five or four.

A six is easy though (In theory) For anyone who is interested:

PICK THE RIGHT PUPIL (The biggest mistake) Make sure learning takes place at all costs.


Intro the examiners presence and effects. Introduce in test centre.Time the lesson from the SE's instructions, leaving time at the end for summary.

Thourough Interactive recap (Do not just tell)

Clear S.M.A.R.T aims and objectives (Do not just tell)

A structured lesson plan (Change if necessary) Use notes from previous lesson

A route suitable for the pupil (The second biggest mistake) Dont take a check unless you know the area like the back of your hand. The route should have repetition and escape routes and suit the pupils ability.A suitable level of instruction (The third biggest) Dangerous under instruction or crazy over controlling instruction

THE PUPIL DOESNT HAVE TO MAKE MISTAKES TO GIVE SOMETHING TO DO. Just make sure learning takes place.

Keep control and have a thoruogh knowledge of everything, identify/anaylyse and correct faults of merit (Repeated fauts in particular) (Dont think the examiner knows you told your pupil last week about something, he doesnt they need to hear it) Dont go overboard on 'oneoffs'. A one of stall due to nerves isnt a hanging offence for example

Do not whatever you do leave faults unsorted within the lesson.

Finish with an interactive lesson summary,Strengths and weakness and what the follow on lesson will cover.

How you deal with your pupil is crucial on a check test and has a huge bearing on the result. Above all forget and come away from part 3 on a check test. Give a real lesson following on from the previous lesson. Show the examiner your lesson plan AT the start. If you havnt got one you havnt got a six.

All sounds easy in theory but above all get some training from someone who comes recommended.





EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#99 13-01-08 12:52:03

Dimmy
Guest

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Now we're getting somewhere!!!
Cheers Hector,  great post smile

#100 14-01-08 08:16:43

ijmoore
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
Website

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Shouldn't we aim to do all that on all lessons anyway? smile


Fleet Training
Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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