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#1 30-05-07 22:43:47

storminnorman
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From: Norfolk
Registered: 16-09-06
Posts: 84
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Use of the Horn

I have just been reading a post on ADI forum regarding the use of the horn.  It's a bit of a coincidence but today but today the IAM sent me an email on the subject.  I wondered what other trainers or drivers of large vehicles thought about horn use. 

Certainly I have found that when driving buses and coaches, if I use the horn as a warning of my presence.  I can make other drivers stop, think and then see me.  Many a time has it prevented me having to brake or take avoiding action. 

Any one else find the horn as a useful piece of equipment when used as it's intended?


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30-05-07 22:43:47

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Re: Use of the Horn



#2 30-05-07 23:25:55

AndyBerry
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Re: Use of the Horn

Yes - I frequently have to use it on the same stretch of road... Passing a row of parked cars and someone approaches and tries to emerge left from a side road on the right without looking to their left first - no horn would mean a rather serious collision.

Also noticed it tends to wake up the people who drift over the white lines on a bend when they realise your having to swing out and cutting the corner is putting them in grave danger


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#3 06-06-07 17:19:40

Iggy
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From: West London
Registered: 13-05-06
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Re: Use of the Horn

I like to use the horn, both on the Bike and in the Lorry. A little toot on the air horns usually gets the attention of other road users..  big_smile

I think the horn is under-used in this county, a few more toots could save a few little knocks here and there IMO.


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#4 06-06-07 22:23:30

AndyBerry
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Re: Use of the Horn

Exactly... had to use mine this evening - man and woman walking along suddenly go to cross road without looking. I've got no chance of stopping so a quick toot and changing position avoided me hitting them both

#5 06-06-07 22:44:19

storminnorman
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From: Norfolk
Registered: 16-09-06
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Re: Use of the Horn

It's great to hear that other people find it does work when used properly.  So many drivers just resort to sudden braking, when perhaps they need not.


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#6 07-06-07 08:51:32

AndyBerry
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Re: Use of the Horn

Defenitely didn't wanna brake sharp - I was already late big_smile but seriously, would of put more people in danger doing that than anything else


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#7 30-06-07 06:00:38

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Use of the Horn

Yes - I frequently have to use it on the same stretch of road... Passing a row of parked cars and someone approaches and tries to emerge left from a side road on the right without looking to their left first - no horn would mean a rather serious collision.....

I'd get my brakes fixed then if I were you - what if that person emerging without looking didn't hear your horn?

Nigel


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#8 30-06-07 19:57:57

AndyBerry
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Re: Use of the Horn

There are times when you would not be able to stop Nigel - imagine you are only 6ft away when this person tries emerging... hitting the brakes would not alert them to your presence, only increase the risk of the collision

#9 30-06-07 21:33:25

driver69
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Re: Use of the Horn

I told a pupil last week to use the horn when a car was reversing from driveway onto main road, he was looking the opposite way and if we had stopped to let him out close to a junction it would have caused a few problems.

But do you not find when you use the horn some people take it badly, often giving a look that would kill?  Even when you probably just saved their life

#10 30-06-07 21:38:20

Karenadi
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Registered: 08-03-07
Posts: 841

Re: Use of the Horn

Is a shame that when it is used properly, it receives abuse: as I generally find.  Maybe I'm not using it correctly.


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#11 30-06-07 21:58:18

storminnorman
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Registered: 16-09-06
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Re: Use of the Horn

I would agree with AndyBerry that there are times when you would not be able to stop in time.  When you drive a large vehicle you often cannot steer away from the danger to avoid collision, you really do not want to brake heavily as the vehicles weigh many tons.  If you are driving large passenger carrying vehicles, you cannot afford to brake hard unless it's absolutely necessary, or all the passengers that end up off their seats will be claiming against you.  When you drive large vehicles you are always doing defensive driving and driving at appropriate speeds.  But it's amazing what some of the other idiots on the road will do and how they don't look to see you coming.

I find that when you sound the horn they look in amazement, but I don't think they really want to argue with a vehicle the size of a lorry or coach.  Size does matter in these situations.


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#12 01-07-07 06:18:53

ExAdiNigel
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From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Use of the Horn

Andy & Stormin' 

I am not suggesting you should be braking hard.  What about the idea of 'Driving at a speed where you can stop safely in the distance you can see to be clear'?

Yes the horn has its uses, yes many drivers see it as a rebuke and don't like it (well it is in a way - if they had been looking correctly you wouldn't have had to use it!), but to rely on the horn to avert an accident is absolutely insane.

Nigel


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#13 01-07-07 07:47:30

pinball
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From: lancashire
Registered: 18-11-06
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Re: Use of the Horn

IF somebody walks in front of you/bumps into you in a shop, They say sorry,

When in car and they pull in front of you causing you to brake and maybe  use  the horn you usually get 2 fingers these days, If you make a mistake in driving and nearly cause an accident why give 2 fingers as this will just cause road rage,end of the day it was your fault a raised hand to acknowledge you mistake and a quick sorry.
Like said above in a shop they will say sorry once behind a steering people change big time, What would happen if we put steering wheels on shopping trolleys? we would see people giving each other 2 fingers and getting trolley rage.

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#14 01-07-07 12:52:50

storminnorman
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Re: Use of the Horn

Nigel

I usually do drive at a speed at which I could stop.  But for instance, when I am overtaking parked vehicles on the left and travelling on the right hand side of road, it is quite normal to see someone emerging out of the side road turning left and only looking to their right.  They only look in my direction once they have emerged.  The horn used at the right time stops them straight away.  To drive at a speed that I could always stop at in this situation would mean about 5mph, which would be ridiculous.   A car can take some avoiding action, wheareas a large vehicle often cannot.

We large vehicle drivers and trainers operate in a commercial environment.  There are pressures of delivery times, timetables and passengers wanting to get places on time etc.  As the old saying goes "time is money".   A compromise is always having to be made between what is ideal and what is realistic.


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#15 01-07-07 13:27:47

captainhook
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Registered: 12-06-06
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Re: Use of the Horn

I never use the horn as i think it just insights friction and bad behavior in others good defensive driving is all you need.


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#16 01-07-07 18:46:53

AndyBerry
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Re: Use of the Horn

Couldn't of put it better there Norman - that's exactly what I was thinking of replying.

If on the wrong side of the road, the ability to stop in a distance you see to be clear is difficult and would mean rediculous speeds. However in the example we are using, someone is emerging from a junction. OK we cannot see into that junction, but it is perfectly reasonable to expect any car approaching that, who can see parked cars opposite them on approach, to slow down and look left before emerging.....


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#17 01-07-07 19:56:57

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Use of the Horn

Nigel

I usually do drive at a speed at which I could stop.  But for instance, when I am overtaking parked vehicles on the left and travelling on the right hand side of road, it is quite normal to see someone emerging out of the side road turning left and only looking to their right.  They only look in my direction once they have emerged.  The horn used at the right time stops them straight away.  To drive at a speed that I could always stop at in this situation would mean about 5mph, which would be ridiculous.   A car can take some avoiding action, wheareas a large vehicle often cannot.

We large vehicle drivers and trainers operate in a commercial environment.  There are pressures of delivery times, timetables and passengers wanting to get places on time etc.  As the old saying goes "time is money".   A compromise is always having to be made between what is ideal and what is realistic.

You may well feel a compromise is always having to be made - BUT Road Safety should NEVER be compromised.

I am NOT saying that a horn should never be used, what I am saying is that a driver should not rely on the use of the horn to avert an accident.  As I asked before, what happens if the emerging driver is deaf and can't hear your horn?  Surely you don't just drive into them?

Nigel


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#18 01-07-07 22:25:00

storminnorman
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From: Norfolk
Registered: 16-09-06
Posts: 84
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Re: Use of the Horn

Nigel

I do not rely on the use of my horn to avert a crash, but use it to try to alert the other road user of my presence.  If the alert is successful, it prevents me having to brake hard to avoid the idiot that has not looked and given way as the law requires.  Roadcraft advocates the use of the horn when others have not noticed you or cannot see you.

If the emerging driver was deaf, emerged without looking and did not hear my horn, I would have no choice but to brake hard.

With regards what I said about a compromise having to be made.  I assume that you would be happy following me at 5mph just in case some idiot decides to pull out in front of me.  I think I would be compromising road safety even more by driving really slowly, antagonizing all behind and  even more likely to find that two wheeled road users are passing me on either side, thus causing even more danger. 

I always drive defensively and expect the unexpected, but the very last thing I want to do when carrying passengers in a bus or coach is to brake hard.   For that reason the emergency stop is not taught to PCV drivers, nor do the DSA test it, a controlled stop is what is required by them.


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#19 02-07-07 06:03:39

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Use of the Horn

Nigel

I do not rely on the use of my horn to avert a crash, but use it to try to alert the other road user of my presence.

Glad to hear it, but Andy suggests that he does rely on the horn to avert a crash....

If the alert is successful, it prevents me having to brake hard to avoid the idiot that has not looked and given way as the law requires.  Roadcraft advocates the use of the horn when others have not noticed you or cannot see you.

If the emerging driver was deaf, emerged without looking and did not hear my horn, I would have no choice but to brake hard.

With regards what I said about a compromise having to be made.  I assume that you would be happy following me at 5mph just in case some idiot decides to pull out in front of me.  I think I would be compromising road safety even more by driving really slowly, antagonizing all behind and  even more likely to find that two wheeled road users are passing me on either side, thus causing even more danger. 

I always drive defensively and expect the unexpected, but the very last thing I want to do when carrying passengers in a bus or coach is to brake hard.   For that reason the emergency stop is not taught to PCV drivers, nor do the DSA test it, a controlled stop is what is required by them.

The emergency stop IS taught to PCV drivers and IS tested by the examiner, or at least it was about 5 years ago - I was taught it AND I was tested on it.

Stormin' from what you have posted you are using your horn correctly and still leaving yourself time to stop if necessary - I don't have a problem with that.  I first started posting in response to the posting made by Andy (partly quoted above) where he said "no horn would mean a rather serious collision".  Sorry, but that is poor planning & anticipation!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#20 02-07-07 08:27:08

AndyBerry
Guest

Re: Use of the Horn

I'm sorry Nigel, I don't seem to be explaining this clearly enough - I have never meant to imply that I wouldn't brake, however harsh braking would, as Norman mentioned, quite possibly mean people coming off their seats.
Nor am I implying that I would use the horn as a replacement for braking of any kind, in the situations above the two would be linked together. However without use of the horn, the braking would need to be increased dramatically straight away. With the horn, the chances of needing to apply the brakes harshly are greatly reduced.

As for the deaf driver you mentioned, if they are stupid (yes, I do mean stupid!) enough to emerge from a junction without looking at what is coming then they are not likely to live much longer. What if a fire engine was coming the other way at a higher speed overtaking a car? Or an ambulance or police car for that matter? The result would be the same!

Oh, and Nigel, it is not taught as the emergency stop, only as controlled braking exercise. Some instructors do still call it e. stop but it is, most definitely controlled braking in the PCV test.


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#21 02-07-07 21:36:41

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Use of the Horn

....Oh, and Nigel, it is not taught as the emergency stop, only as controlled braking exercise. Some instructors do still call it e. stop but it is, most definitely controlled braking in the PCV test.

And the difference is?

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#22 03-07-07 06:11:49

AndyBerry
Guest

Re: Use of the Horn

The difference being it is actually more a test of reaction than anything else - you are responding to the noise of the bell and not the standard 'stop' signal given by a car examiner

#23 03-07-07 10:01:10

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Use of the Horn

The emergency stop is a test of reaction.  I still don't see what the difference is apart from the name!  It really doesn't matter whether an examiner says 'stop', bangs a clipboard, holds his hand up or rings a bell.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

Offline


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#24 03-07-07 17:59:20

Bubbles
Verified Member
Registered: 16-10-06
Posts: 42

Re: Use of the Horn

Is a shame that when it is used properly, it receives abuse: as I generally find.  Maybe I'm not using it correctly.


Ditto! i would agree there

I do find sometimes that when i do use the horn poeple perceive it as agression

I do try to diffuse the situation by a friendly wave when i've had to use it

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#25 07-07-07 08:32:46

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,653

Re: Use of the Horn

If you stand on the brakes in a PCV you are going to injure your passengers. If a car pulls out in front of you then brake progressively and sound the horn to alert the other vehicle.

First priority is care of your own passengers, second priority is avoiding injury to the other road user.

If you have to wipe out the other vehicle then so be it.


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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