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#1 28-12-04 05:35:10

jonks
Guest

Double Declutching

If you take an advanced course, do they teach you to Double declutch? And what real difference does Double declutching make to your driving and your car?

Also, I recently read about a variation of Double declutching called "Heel toe". Can anyone tell me any more about that, and why it is used?

28-12-04 05:35:10

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Re: Double Declutching



#2 28-12-04 09:13:09

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: Double Declutching

Hello Jonks!!  My my you are a busy bee this morning! 

My RoSPA Observer (ex traffic) tells me to double declutch when needed on approach to bends and changing down gear.  It sustains the revs and makes for a smoother gearchange.  I hadn't been taught how to do it before but it does work.

A few people have said to me with today's modern cars you don't need it.  I'm not too much into the 'techie' side of this and would also be interested in other people's opinions....

Lynne

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#3 28-12-04 10:28:56

jonks
Guest

Re: Double Declutching

This is how I understand you do it...

To perform a double declutch, the clutch is pressed and the gearbox shifted into neutral gear. The clutch is released, the throttle is "blipped" which applies power to the disengaged gearbox, thus speeding it up internally. The clutch is pressed for the second time and the gear lever moved (smoothly) to the desired gear. The clutch is released again, and the drive continues.

As far as I can see from what I have read, this only used for down changing.  For an upchange, it is usually to allow the gear lever to rest momentarily in neutral and no "blip" is needed.

#4 28-12-04 10:33:42

Midge
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 414
Website

Re: Double Declutching

We live in a hilly area.  My first husband taught me to double declutch, because he was worried that I might get into a mess trying to change gear on the hills.  I always understood you did it to make sure the revs  were matched  so that the car didn't lose speed or power while changing down.  It always worked for me too.   Changing up you allow the revs to die off a little to change smoothly.


Midge  -   Dip D.I.

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#5 28-12-04 10:48:20

jonks
Guest

Re: Double Declutching

Does anyone know if it actually helps lessen wear on the gearbox, or has any other benefits for the car itself?


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#6 28-12-04 11:21:55

adi
Verified Member
From: shropshire
Registered: 28-02-04
Posts: 1,231
Website

Re: Double Declutching

I do this in my Landrover which can only manage about 10mph up some of the steep banks where i live, in the car the turbo just kicks in and there never seems a need.

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#7 28-12-04 12:50:06

simonjones
Guest

Re: Double Declutching

My experiences of driving older lorries, coaches, Landrovers and vintage cars has meant that I have had to double declutch on occasions. I wouldn’t have thought a modern car really needs this technique anymore though, does it?

http://www.free-definition.com/Double-declutch.html


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#8 28-12-04 14:05:28

MrBassMan
Verified Member
From: Ceredigion, West Wales
Registered: 10-05-04
Posts: 669
Website

Re: Double Declutching

Double de-clutching harks from the days before synchromesh gearboxes when you could not engage a gear unless the engine and gearbox speeds closely matched. Modern sychromesh gearboxes have made the technique obsolete (except when selecting reverse gear as many cars to not have synchromesh for reverse gear).


Learn 2 Pass
Driving lessons in and around Ceredigion in West Wales  http://www.L2P.co.uk

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#9 28-12-04 21:32:04

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: Double Declutching

I agree with MrBassman the need these days for double de-clutch has gone in the modern day scenario you should be using accelaration sense or a gentle application of the brakes then select the gear to match the road speed.
             Stephen

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#10 28-12-04 21:53:06

simonjones
Guest

Re: Double Declutching

Hey, hey, that was the upshot of my post too! I can tell you’re a traffic policeman and not a detective!  tongue

#11 28-12-04 22:07:53

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: Double Declutching

Whichever one you are on the bike you dont sound as daft as you look, and i couldnt detect a gas leak with a cig in my mouth ha,ha.
                                Stephen

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#12 29-12-04 17:36:15

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Double Declutching

The modern day equivalent is the sustained gear change.  Once you have slowed down to the speed you require change down to the gear that suits that speed best, keeping some pressure on the accelerator to give a smooth change and minimise further deceleration.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#13 29-12-04 23:29:02

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: Double Declutching

Oh I don't do what Jonks has described.   :shock:  :shock:

I do more of what Nigel says:

adiNigel wrote:

The modern day equivalent is the sustained gear change.  Once you have slowed down to the speed you require change down to the gear that suits that speed best...

Nigel

Then I 'blip' the accelerator with clutch down then bring clutch up, re-taking accelerator at the appropriate time.

Ok so what's the technical term for this?  I thought it was double de-clutch  :?  :?   someone enlighten me...have I got my knickers in a twist?   :oops: No sarky comments!

When out with my observer next week hmm perhaps ask him when he retired out of traffic??

Lynne

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#14 10-01-05 23:34:58

keith palmer
Guest

Re: Double Declutching

i first learnt to double declutch 24 years ago from my grandfather (who was taught to do it driving ambulances during ww2)   since then i was re-introduced to it when i trained as a psv driver and still use it to this day whilst driving around my home town of Barry (built on 7 hills) and find it invaluable

#15 14-01-05 23:39:52

John
Guest

Re: Double Declutching

It's not very eco-friendly to heel and toe and double de clutch 'cos you produce a vacuum in the cylinders and this sucks the lubricating oil past the piston rings.  This causes the oil to burn and poison the catalytic converter. 

With new cars having more than five gears, sweet synchromesh gearboxes and electronic stability gubbins,  just using the brakes, rather than the gears to slow is simpler, safer and kinder to the car. 

Many engine management systems cut the fuel to the engine when you brake to improve economy and reduce polution.  This can make heeling and toeing impossible.  You would not be able to rev the engine when braking.

If you have an old banger then go ahead with this driving style.  You might need to thrash the nuts out of the engine to get reasonable performance and use the engine braking to supplement dodgy brakes.

I don't think that you can double-de-clutch on motorbikes since they have constant mesh gearboxes.

Cheers.


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#16 15-01-05 07:58:22

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: Double Declutching

Stephen7738 wrote:

and i couldnt detect a gas leak with a cig in my mouth ha,ha.
                                Stephen

Like a bet lol

Anyway there is no need to Double De Clutch these days as has already been said, I know we don't tell associates how to do it.

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#17 16-01-05 19:56:57

jimbo
Guest

Re: Double Declutching

John : It's not very eco-friendly to heel and toe and double de clutch 'cos you produce a vacuum in the cylinders and this sucks the lubricating oil past the piston rings. This causes the oil to burn and poison the catalytic converte

r

   Good god il never do it again - i certainly dont want lubricating oil sucked past my piston rings - ay Vanda !! lol


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#18 19-01-05 04:18:02

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,696
Website

Re: Double Declutching

I did a bit of truck instruction for an Aussie RTO, we had three basic type of truck boxes: crash, synchro, constant mesh.
The crash & constant mesh boxes needed a fairly accurate double declutch technique (revs/gear ratio/speed/deceleration rate etc) otherwise they might not go into gear - deadly in a lot of situations.
Professionial truckies don't use the clutch at all once mobile, but we instructors were forbidden on pain of sacking to teach this.

I read in the Australian truck drivers handbook that manufacturers say that double declutching is not good for synchro boxes but I noticed that most truckies will do it if the gearbox "baulks".
I can't see why ddc is not good for car synchro boxes, surely correctly matching the revs takes the strain offf the synchro cones. I use it myself at times, but on my part it is an occasional automatic reaction when downshifting (forget I'm not in a truck). I don't teach it to my pupils unless they ask.

My main problem is trying to teach pupils "skip shifting" (a requirement of the NT's logbook training system)... parents often phone me to complain about this, they insist on down-shifting thru all gears on every occasion. What's the policy on skip shifting in the UK?


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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#19 19-01-05 07:05:15

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: Double Declutching

Zipper wrote:

My main problem is trying to teach pupils "skip shifting" (a requirement of the NT's logbook training system)... parents often phone me to complain about this, they insist on down-shifting thru all gears on every occasion. What's the policy on skip shifting in the UK?

It's policy to Block change gears. makes it a lot easier than when I learned then it was work your way down the gears :oops:

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#20 21-01-05 01:53:37

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,696
Website

Re: Double Declutching

Gizmotime wrote:
Zipper wrote:

It's policy to Block change gears. makes it a lot easier than when I learned then it was work your way down the gears :oops:

It is definitely much easier & safer for the learner, they can concentrate on observation, braking, position etc. Students tested by the MVR (Motor Vehicle Registry) are usually not penalised for not doing it though. I found that some students think skip-shifting (block shifting?) precludes using lower gears to control speed down hills, I think they get mixed up between using gears to slow down as opposed using gears for control and to reduce brake overheating.
I still teach using all gears when the situation merits it (e.g. approaching stale green lights, gradual deceleration rate or slowing from a high speed, slowing down while ascending a hill) and advise it for four-wheel-driving, in older vehicles or when towing trailers. If I get a "pre-taught" student I show them the skip-shifting technique but don't insist they use it if they consistently forget to use (or if they are from a farm where dad has strong opinions on the subject).


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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#21 03-12-05 11:37:35

Kinel
Member
Registered: 03-12-05
Posts: 2

Re: Double Declutching

jonks wrote:

I recently read about a variation of Double declutching called "Heel toe". Can anyone tell me any more about that, and why it is used?

Heel and toe is often coupled with DDC but it is also a technique all of it's own.

It is more useful for say rally driving than to Joe Public on HM highway and I doubt any driving examiner would give you points for practicing it during a test however expertly executed!

Basically it involves simultaneously using the toe of the right foot on the brake and the heel on the accelerator - hence heel & toe - the advantage for the rally driver is that by varying the relative pressures on the 2 pedals plus having the left foot still available for the clutch they can accomplish braking, DDC gear changing and accelerating in a smooth virtually unbroken flow which is one of the reasons they can manage to go round twisty gravelly mountain tracks or through snow and ice sideways and at insane speeds. As any driving instructor will tell you smothness is the key to ALL driving, fast or slow.

A similar technique is left foot braking which is exactly that but of course this cannot be coupled with gear changing too.

Not much call for any of it in Tesco's car park or on the School run!

I learnt to DDC when I started driving 40 odd years ago out of neccessity because most of the wrecks I could afford back then either had no synchromesh or if they did it was shot to pieces (not much changed then!) but I still practice it occasionally where circumstances warrant.

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#22 02-02-06 22:20:43

dth-adi
Verified Member
Registered: 19-09-04
Posts: 1,402

Re: Double Declutching

Kinel is on the button with his explanation.

Sustained engine revs is sometimes incorrectly described as 'double de-clutching' by those who do not know the difference - perhaps because of their tender age smile -  and the explanations given above are correct.

In my book, anything that smooths out the transition from one gear to another is OK as long as it's done safely and I don't believe it adversely affects the synchromesh.

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