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#1 27-03-07 17:59:18

Carlos Fandango
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Registered: 18-10-06
Posts: 29

Roadcraft

I recently qualified as an ADI last December and when the opportunity presented it's self in February went on on to take the DSA's Fleet qualification.

Since undertaking the fleet driving course I was a little surprised to find that apparently Driving the Essential Skills was no longer good enough and I now had to be advocating the practices outlined in Roadcraft.

Prior to passing my part three I had bought a copy of Roadcraft, more out of curiosity to see what it had to say than anything else .

In order to get to grips with Roadcraft at a more practical level I have just enrolled to undertake the RoSPA driver training course as the syllabus uses Roadcraft exclusively.

On my initial assessment drive last Sunday a couple of issues came up that I would welcome any comments on.

Firstly, the trainer said that I was signalling automatically rather than considering if a signall was necessary.

This was not when moving off of stopping, but rather on approaching junctions to turn left and right !

Now, I had had quite a protracted discussion with my trainer at The Instructor College  ( yeah I know, sorry !! I didn't know any better at the time  sad ) when I didn't signal when approaching an absolutely open roundabout to turn right as I could see for a good quarter of a mile in all directions that there was no one else to benefit from the signal.

I was told that 'you should always signal on approach to a junction'  to take in  consideration of other vehicles that may be approaching unseen in the new road , this seemed a reasonable premise so I always do.

Any opinions ??

Secondly, the roadcraft system advises the driver  move out towards the crown of the road ( were safe ) to obtain a better view on left hand bends.

However D.T.E.S. specifically tells you not to.

Any thoughts ??



Thanks

Carlos

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27-03-07 17:59:18

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Re: Roadcraft



#2 27-03-07 18:52:55

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
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Re: Roadcraft

Carlos you are now an advanced driver and as such perfectly able to adopt a higher driving standard than the DSA.

Go with the flow you will be amazed at what a better overall system roadcraft is to the DSA method.(For an advanced driver)

You do not realise at the moment you are signalling automatically, but when shown the error of your ways -DSA ways! you soon will.

It is the simplest way in the world when training company drivers to really get them signalling properely.

For example DONT signal when approaching a junction if there is nothing behind Whats the point?

Put it on at the junction IF it becomes necesary.

It Is okay to straighten bends / roundabouts etc IF SAFE. Give it a go and see the light.


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
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#3 27-03-07 18:55:37

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
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Re: Roadcraft

Also remember the signal your trainer told you to apply in the instance above was incorrect as the DSA method is very similair- Signal when necessary and that does apply to junctions as well as move/stop


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
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#4 27-03-07 19:17:14

kev elliott
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Re: Roadcraft

I think the best explanation i heard for the benifit of signaling when necessary and not routinely for every junction was if you are already indicating to nothing, apart from winding your window down and giving an arm signal, how can you attract the attention of another road user that comes into view while you are all ready signaling?

If you think about it if you are stopped in queeue of traffic - how many times do you see something coming up behind you and just briefy flash your brake lights as an attention grabber if you have your handbrake on. 

Just a thought but it made sense to me!

#5 27-03-07 21:44:24

Carlos Fandango
Verified Member
Registered: 18-10-06
Posts: 29

Re: Roadcraft

Thanks for the quick replies !

Hector, my natural feeling was that the trainer was wrong , would be an interesting argument with an SE during  a part two.

I am really looking forward to doing the RoSPA training, any suggestions as to  other courses you feel are worth doing?


I would like to try and get the biggest overview of driving systems / tuition I can.

Thanks


Andy

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#6 28-03-07 09:20:05

chip
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Registered: 18-10-05
Posts: 45

Re: Roadcraft

When i did my fleet driving exam i was driving roadcraft style .The examiner liked it not one bit and failed me .The examiner was an ex dsa seadi.I did the drive again ,reverted back to part 2 and passed.Confusing or what?

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#7 28-03-07 17:26:25

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
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Re: Roadcraft

Yeah chip very!!

Contradicting the very styles you will teach, and again its marked on a normal 'standard' learner DL25! By an examiner who normally examines on part 2.

To teach a fleet client the MSM method is not really ideal- One mention of MSM takes them back to their driving test!

Examiners robots?? A good one should see what are doing and why.And roadcraft should be acceptable, should being the big word.


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#8 28-03-07 17:51:50

EKAL
Verified Member
From: East Kilbride
Registered: 23-04-06
Posts: 1,050
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Re: Roadcraft

When i did my fleet driving exam i was driving roadcraft style .The examiner liked it not one bit and failed me .The examiner was an ex dsa seadi.I did the drive again ,reverted back to part 2 and passed.Confusing or what?

When I sat my part 2 I decided to give full commentary as I felt more at ease with this, when approaching junctions and roundabouts etc I made a point of mentioning my "lack" of signalling and the reasons for not signalling - no one to benefit - after the test the examiner congratulated me on my pass and commented he had never sat with a driver giving commentary, then asked why i made a point of telling him why i didn't signal( i was thinking learners should, I didnt because advanced, so inform him why i never), he could see there was no need for a signal and said he would have expected a learner to do likewise if there was no requirement.

Regarding moving out for better vision on bends, this is a bone of contention for me, i can see the major benefits for a motor bike moving a couple of feet, but a car moves a few inches and at the speeds we are limited to, you gain very little, if any, extra vision. I feel this section of roadcraft is more designed for higher speeds than we are restricted to.
I do agree with straight lining R/B's and bends though.......................... if safe to do so yikes big_smile big_smile


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#9 29-03-07 12:35:56

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
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Re: Roadcraft

Ekal - until some recent training I didn't tend to change my position for bends, but I've found that if you look at the road then in many cases it can be very useful. Many tight country roads preclude it, because moving left puts you on gravel (or if you misjudge it, grass, ditches, hedges etc!), and moving toward the centre line as you say only gains you about 3 inches.

However there are many good A-roads (the one I use it most often on is the A6 from Morecambe to Milnthorpe), which are wide enough to get a huge advantage from it. Like with anything else - assess the pros and cons and decide for and against as the road suggests.

As far as the commentary is concerned - brilliant - I bet that examiner got an education, many of them (like ADIs) have never really experienced this properly, and when it is done well it can be fantastic to observe.

One thing I would like to see is more 'advanced drivers' trying to combine these 2 approaches. I have a (probably futile) hope that one day we could just have 1 driving bible that covered normal driving, with DSA style safety tolerances, professional driving, with lower safety tolerances for drivers rated capable, and emergency response driving, with the caveat that unless on blue light response the techniques must not be used. This may help everyone understand what everyone else is doing.

(lives in hope!   roll)

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#10 29-03-07 19:58:12

Carlos Fandango
Verified Member
Registered: 18-10-06
Posts: 29

Re: Roadcraft

Seems like as I thought this ( as is a large amount of driving ) is a bit of a grey area.

Chips post was exactly the point I was going to raise next.

I am planning to have a go at the Diamond Special test and think it would be better to do this before getting to in to 'Roadcraft mode'

And what about doing a fleet check test ?????

The DSA are saying use roadcraft, but are the majority of SE's really fully conversant with it ?  ???


Andy


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#11 30-03-07 16:55:37

chip
Verified Member
Registered: 18-10-05
Posts: 45

Re: Roadcraft

Hi Carlos when i was out with my pal who is rospa gold,special diamond and everything else going,he prepared me for the fleet drive and the fleet p3 test so i took up the roadcraft system as he and i thought this was the way to go however we were both proved wrong.He couldn't understand why i was knocked back on the first drive and felt a certain amount of guilt over the situation.

    He reckons that the seadi just didn't figure out what i was up to.The ex se made a big song and dance about signals even to the extent of asking me why i didn't signal at times during the drive.My lack of signals was on purpose because they were not needed.So guess what?I failed on signals.Also failed on going a little too fast on the m'way(use of speed)
  The second drive part 2 i had a minor or 2 for hesitation at the end i sais to the ex se ,after passing "Is that better now that i have driven like a learner".The ex se got out of the car and that was that

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#12 06-05-07 23:44:22

ralge
Verified Member
From: Sheffield
Registered: 10-01-07
Posts: 320

Re: Roadcraft

Consistent - different standards Roadcraft / Fleet / DSA L-test

On Fleet Part 2 - I was criticised for going over the paint of a hatched area in order to turn right a little more easily ...

In Advanced training session a month or two later I was positively told to use the hatched area - this allowed the following traffic to make progress.

I always taught learners to avoid hatched areas UNLESS they could justify it to the examiner i.e. let the examiner know that he/she didn't habitually go into hatched areas.

Yet, in a local TC, I'm told the head honcho expects learners to go into the hatched area in order to turn right back into the test centre.

LOCAL RULES?

Then there's lane discipline on roundabouts - keep to lane (def'ly with L-test) or straight-line when nobody is about (Advanced) ... the latter is a little tricky - define "nobody about" - does that include someone who is not on the roundabout but who can see you, "the advanced driver" straight-lining it, so he/she willcopy your move when he/she shouldn't.

Then, an ex-Class One PC who assessed my driving asked me why I was checking my blindspot before changing lane, suggesting that as an Advanced
Driver I shouldn't need to do that except for those occasions when I was unsure ... a case of checking, I suppose, when I'm sure that I'm unsure. That's helpful and clear as mud.

For me, if I can justify doing something, I'm happy whether the assessor agrees with me or not .... RoSPA/Roadcraft being heavily Police-based has one major flaw - speed / appropriate speed / progress and the judgement of it.

e.g. on my first Advanced test the examiner criticised me (i.e. SILVER, sob) for not overtaking a bus followed closely by a car on a narrow, winding country lane.  There had been two occasions when I might have overtaken the two vehicles, he said.  Funny that, I thought RoSPA had safety somewhere in its remit and that risk-taking on an unknown country road was not worth it ... what questions do we ask of ourselves?  Overtake?  Is it safe, legal, necessary?  So I hung back but I should have stuck closer and raced past.  I would do the same again - I obviously have spent too much time on the A17/A47 "high casualty routes" where overtaking gives you an ulcer and you just meet the next truck a mile further on.  So I don't bother.

I should have known better (and overtake at all costs) since my mentor in the few training sessions I did prior to the test was consistent in telling me that he could drive down this road at ... mph (whether this was legal or not) i.e. I can handle it 'cos I'm an advanced driver (and if you can't, you're a wuss).  Such comments made me want to leave him by the roadside since they are just the sort of approach and bravado that end up with 18-year-old laddo in the ditch.

I'm afraid, folks, that there's a number of standards that e are judged by and they ain't all consistently off the same hymn-sheet.  On the day, find out what the examiner expects, dislikes and perform accordingly.





DSA Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Dip, PTLLS, Safed for Vans, NDAC/Speed Awareness on-road trainer, RoSPA RoAD Test Examiner.

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#13 10-05-07 18:38:40

ADI349
Verified Member
From: East Yorkshire
Registered: 24-01-05
Posts: 193

Re: Roadcraft

For anyone doing RoSPA a good starting place along with Roadcraft is to read the test guidelines particularly the section of positioning and crossing white lines.  This is one area that there is some difference in interpretation even between RoSPA examiners.  So when you are talking of 'straight lining' at roundabouts and bends read this bit first.  As for using the road if they is no advantage to be gained ie view etc then don't do it.

Steve W wink


If you only do what you've always done, you will only achieve what you've always achieved

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