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#26 09-11-06 19:53:51

keith williams
Verified Member
From: Bangor, Northern Ireland
Registered: 28-08-06
Posts: 458

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

No need for PM.

I wouldn't normally have been put through the course but because there are only 2 other instructors over here working with me then there wasn't a lot of choice for them.

Just because I've done the course doesn't mean I have to take on any PDIs though. I approched it with the attitude that it was a good chance to develop myself professionaly and it was some good check test training. That'll hopefully mean I can get a grade 5 (or above, you never know) then I can consider training some PDIs. I mentioned above that I didn't feel confident enough in my ability to train instructors before the course, now I do feel more confident but still would like to progress further.

The course was led by Alan Esam of the AA but I worked mainly with a guy called Keith Clarke who I found to be an excellent trainer. A good laugh as well.

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09-11-06 19:53:51

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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6




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#27 10-11-06 07:20:07

marconi1
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From: Dawlish
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 693
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

It sounds like you are being responsible even if the AA are not. Kieth Clarke is a good guy and yes very funny with lots of anacdotes.

I left the AA because of the very poor training from the AA for instructor and fleet trainers. Unfortunatly with little experience under your belt you would not realize. Many old timers like me left and needed to get training from others as the AA course left us way short of the mark and now I have done that traing I can see how poor it was. My advice would be settle as an instructor and get that all valuanle experience for 2 years then consider doing DIT. The Diploma is a good all round course of study where you can branch out.


Dave Foster MA, Dip.DI
F.inst.D.E.R, M.Inst.MTD, M.A.I.R.O, A.I.F.L,
Foster the Joy of Driving
http://dte-elite.co.uk  http://drivertrainingeducation.co.uk

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#28 10-11-06 16:49:07

captainhook
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Registered: 12-06-06
Posts: 2,197
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

You say the aa are not being responsible the instructor college will take you on after a year also as im sure a lot of training establishments will.

Not trying to start an arguement just food for thought but if the dsa do not stipulate any special requirments to become a trainer why do people think anything different.


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#29 10-11-06 18:18:24

Evan
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

I hope this is not going to go down the racial route. The comment I made above, is to do with the trainers ability to get the message across to someone who speaks another language, and the fact that the person paid money for the course but couldn't fully understand the instructions given to him in English.
This is quite different from an ADI speaking the same language as the pupil he/she is teaching. With regards to training people to become ADI's from ethnic minority groups, I fully agree with it, however the organizations must ensure that they have trainers who are equipped to get the training across in the appropriate language. If this topic is going the racial route I will go and sit in the corner and yawn. Ev

#30 10-11-06 21:03:22

Evan
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Agree with you Dimmy as long as you have the right trainer, with the right attitude and necessary training credentials, it shouldnt matter whether it is pay as you go or up front. The only reason I like pay as you go, is because it means that you always have the options of shopping elsewhere if the quality doesn't suit you.

As stated earlier in one of my posts, the trainer is only half of the equation, the person presenting themselves for training must have the necessary qualities. To get the best out of any training situation, you must be prepared to work. This is where the ''Silk purse out of a Sow's ear'' description fits the bill. Ev

#31 10-11-06 21:22:48

Karenadi
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

AND, that person has to also realise that they have to put in as much, if not more work themselves as the trainers do at the training sessions.

Too many expect to be just turned into an instructor: it's a bit like some of the learners: they think they don't have to put any effort in: it'll just be done for them.


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#32 10-11-06 21:23:22

Target
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From: Winchmore Hill North London
Registered: 17-01-05
Posts: 5,695
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

With the point about PAYG, does this really mean actually knowing where you stand if you would like to cancel or postpone your training, rather than them being any different.

I cannot imagine any independant instructor trainer signing someone up for lets say a course of lessons on either Part2/3 without some sort of deposit and perhaps even some loss if the course is cancelled at short notice.

When I look through these adverts and its not just driving instructors, although they have no less than 9 adverts in the local jobs available its not just TIC and RED now, although TIC are advertising which we know are one in the same.

Theres adverts for Plumbers. Models. HGV. IT. Bus Drivers. Chaffuers. Taxi. You name its the adverts there, and they are all claiming the same. High income with little effort.

Whilst the person seeking should do their home work, these companys are still not telling the whole truth. We know the AA's instructor training is sub standard but how else would you find that out unless your actually within the industry.

The AA and definately TIC RED LETSDRIVE LANES whoever it may be are not going to tell anyone. How many people would go upto an instructor and say. Tell me about this company what are they like?.

You only have to look in the paper, all the false claims of high pass rates.

I thought I'd done my homework. Asked the right questions, but it was only until I really got into the training at TIC that I slowly began to see the real picture.

A company like the AA has a big brand name behind them, and people trust that name.

Its about time things were changed.


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#33 10-11-06 21:35:23

Evan
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Independents, Large Companies, Small Companies, blah blah, they will all say they are the best. The person that makes it happen is the PDI their commitment, their knowledge and their ability to deliver the goods on the day. Where the training comes from is immaterial.

Pay your money and take your chance. Look for the right person for YOU not all trainers suit all PDI's and not all PDI's suit all trainers. If you are a lazy sod and think by picking out the best trainer in the country you will pass, think again.

Many will be called few will be chosen, same as any other profession, seek and you shall find, find before you part with cash. Ev

#34 10-11-06 21:54:50

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

I cannot imagine any independant instructor trainer signing someone up for lets say a course of lessons on either Part2/3 without some sort of deposit and perhaps even some loss if the course is cancelled at short notice.

I have never taken a deposit and never will. Some clients pay up front for 10 hrs say but thats it.

If a trainer asks for a deposit id ask what for!

Thats a sweeping statement ev about where training comes from being immaterial!
For a pdi with a natural talent yes, otherwise  id say definitely no
Quantity or lack of is the massive problem, intensive is the other


THERE IS ONE MASSIVE INCENTIVE FOR PDI'S WHO PAY BY THE HR WITH POUND NOTES ON EVERY SESSION. THE BURNING DESIRE TO PART WITH AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE!! JUST THE SAME AS A LEARNER.
AND THIS IS A MAJOR FACTOR WHEN TRAINING.
AS KAREN SAYS ABOVE THIS REALLY TAKES AWAY THE 'TRAIN ME FACTOR'.


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
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#35 10-11-06 22:00:04

Evan
Guest

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Not if they do their homework Hector. Which is the point I'm coming too. If they find a good trainer then it doesn't matter whether it's an indie or big company. But they must do their homework and find the right source for their training. I would still say independent. But that is just my own personal view having tried both. Agree with Karen's post above as well (sorry Karen missed that one), but then Karen and I see things the same way. PDI's or Leaners looking for magicians to make their dreams come true are wasting their time and money. Ev

#36 15-12-06 15:07:19

jq
Guest

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

In a previous job I use to train trainers in a distribution and mechanical handling environment. (forklifts etc)
The best trainers are not necessarily those who are best at their jobs. The best trainers are those who can get the message across in a concise easy to understand manner. They are also the ones who have enthusiasm and are conscientious. I had some brilliant people working for me but couldn't train someone to save their lives.

A grade 6 instructor knows how to do a 'check test' nothing more nothing less. On my last check test the SE remarked on what an excellent lesson it had been, pitched at the right level, top instruction, and very good evaluation of weaknesses etc. Now I'm starting to think maybe a grade 6. Then right at the end he says 'could have explained about the extra weight a little better so it's a grade 5 I'm afraid' :?

Anyone who has a grade 6 must have worked hard for it but let's not say they are the only ones who can make good trainers.

#37 15-12-06 16:09:16

Karenadi
Guest

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

You are probably right there: had a similar debrief, but apparently I failed to ask pupil if she had any questions..................flippin heck: I always do that too.  I wonder if there really is that minimal difference between a 5 and a 6?


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#38 15-12-06 17:59:56

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

I got the 'you've got an extremely good grade 5', and I had to stop myself from asking 'couldn't you give me a slightly low grade 6?'!

I know I shouldn't worry, but the guys who have grade 6 should be pretty proud of themselves.

As far as people who can do their job extremely well, but might not be so good at training people to do it - I agree. One of the best drivers I know is not great at getting the skills he has across. However, with instructors, I would have thought that the instructional skills would transfer - good driver (part 2 pass) plus good L instructor (good training and communication skills, maybe grade 6?) should make someone a good trainer?

Not sure, but I would've thought so. However, if someone has got a grade 6 ORDIT, then they have been graded on their training, so no problem there.

(quick question though - if you pass ORDIT with a grade 6, are you then a grade 6 driving instructor, or are these kept separate. I know there has been some discussion of the crossover between adi check test grades and fleet check test grades, does this happen with ORDIT too?)

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#39 15-12-06 18:19:45

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

No - grade six ordit trainers are not automatically grade six trainers bizzarly!

BUT to get a grade six on ordit you would need to be a grade six trainer!


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
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#40 06-01-07 08:45:03

ijmoore
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Interesting comments, its unfortunate evan had poor attitude from the grade 6 adi he knew, that surely is just unprofessional?

Here here hector, I would say grade 6 is crucial, however i should say ORDIT reg should be necassary to teach adis too.  The general quality of adis can be really poor, which i believe is shocking, many instuctructors do not even cover the dsa recommended syllabus either. 

Does anyone agree that a further qualification (of some sort existing/new) should be nessacary to be a adi trainer?


Fleet Training
Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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#41 06-01-07 13:40:03

captainhook
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Registered: 12-06-06
Posts: 2,197
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Funny enough you prob find only the grad 6 trainers or those who are ordit will be saying this. I wonder howmany trainers who arent would agree. So get rid of all other trainers and guess who has more work LOL :evil:


For intensive driving courses or weekly lessons from a driving school using the latest Audi A3 - covering the Slough and surrounding areas - visit www.go-pass-driving-school.co.uk

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#42 06-01-07 14:42:07

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

I'm not on Ordit, and I'm not currently grade 6, however I'm training for Ordit, and I've done so much work since my last check test I'm hoping to get there. I'm not sure how crucial grade 6 in itself is (stats show a minute difference in L pass rates between grade 5 & 6 adi's, but quite a big jump from grade 4 to 5), but it's a matter of personal pride innit!

Ordit will become compulsory soon, D of T are working on it, look at the recommendations:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/d … 076_116782

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#43 06-01-07 15:50:01

captainhook
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Registered: 12-06-06
Posts: 2,197
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

yes sure I mean we would all like to grade 5 or above. Also i would agree in a pefect world there should be more control over it all. but to say there are a load of crap instructors out there is a result in the bad training is a bit vaige because they must have passed their exams which must mean training was to a satisfactory level.

As it stands an ADI can teach someone to be a driving instructor and it would be my intention to become ordit registered and everything else along the way.

But im still not sure they should have to be anything but qualified as an ADI. Afterall when someone passes their green they are almost certainly not gonna be grade 6 no matter how much training they have had. But it is seen that an adi will continue to develope their skills fromthen on in.


For intensive driving courses or weekly lessons from a driving school using the latest Audi A3 - covering the Slough and surrounding areas - visit www.go-pass-driving-school.co.uk

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#44 06-01-07 15:58:41

timmanwaringadi
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From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

I don't think there are a huge amount of 'crap instructors' out there, and being 'crap' I would suggest is more to do with attitude than grade, I know one grade 6 who has a terrible attitude. Some however have weaknesses, and as the D of T have researched, the weaknesses in pass rates (I know this is not the whole story, but it is an important symptom) come from trainees and grade 4 instructors. In the report, they say that some of the best trainees had better pass rates than some of the higher graded instructors, but the information is taken over a huge quantity of information, and gives a 'broad' view of things.

I don't agree that simply being an ADI should be qualification enough to train ADIs though, this would be like saying that the only qualification to train a driver should be a driver's licence.

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#45 06-01-07 16:25:09

captainhook
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Registered: 12-06-06
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

But there are many trainers who are nothing more than this. In fact in the larger companies-even if the company is ordit registered does not mean the trainers are. The ordit is given to the quality of the training programme provided. So based on the fact that these trainers are giving training to these guidlines or modules. Unlike when an individual trainer goes for ordit-they themselves are assesed on their training.


For intensive driving courses or weekly lessons from a driving school using the latest Audi A3 - covering the Slough and surrounding areas - visit www.go-pass-driving-school.co.uk

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#46 06-01-07 16:34:37

timmanwaringadi
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From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

You're dead right captain - I personally feel that Ordit should be a personal thing - like our green badges. Unfortunately, when Ordit is compulsory for trainers it will be very hard to get into, and lots of companies will offer Ordit courses 'where all you need is a green badge - you too could earn up to £45,000 a year' (£4500 course fees to be paid up front - no guarantees given)!!!!!!!!

Let's both of us get in there before that happens mate - have you started looking into the registration process yet?

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#47 06-01-07 17:01:52

captainhook
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Registered: 12-06-06
Posts: 2,197
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

What you mean actually training trainers to qualify for ordit registration. no I havnt. Once its compulsory wouldnt you need a special qualification for doing this other than just being ordit registered.


For intensive driving courses or weekly lessons from a driving school using the latest Audi A3 - covering the Slough and surrounding areas - visit www.go-pass-driving-school.co.uk

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#48 06-01-07 17:09:42

timmanwaringadi
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From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Now I'm confused - I meant have you started your prep to get registered on Ordit to train instructors? (or have I missed something and are you already on it? Apologies if I have.)

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#49 06-01-07 17:16:28

captainhook
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Registered: 12-06-06
Posts: 2,197
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Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

No mate sorry but you said about training companies oh i see what you mean.When does it actually become compulsory-has there actually been a date set or is it just being talked about.
What i thought you meant was have i regsistered to become a trainer who will train instructors to become ordit registered.

can you advise me at all about what the process involves to become ordit. obviously you have to have a good syllabus for training but how do they judge it. is it appraised on the package itself and a test of training like part 3.


For intensive driving courses or weekly lessons from a driving school using the latest Audi A3 - covering the Slough and surrounding areas - visit www.go-pass-driving-school.co.uk

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#50 06-01-07 17:24:00

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Should all trainers be a grade 6

Captain - have a look at these links, this is what I'm basing my info on, and hopefully they will be helpful.

The future of the business, including trainees, trainee licences, and training establishments - this is the report that the Department of Transport commisioned, and they are working on the recommendations and how to implement them as we speak: (chapter 9 is relevant here)

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/d … 04595.hcsp

As far as Ordit is concerned, I've printed off a copy of the regs, and most of it is simple enough, but I just highlighted any of the stuff I wasn't already doing and started sorting it out (currently typing up my syllabus!). What I am doing is getting everything done to what I feel they want, then getting it checked with my trainer who is already Ordit:

http://www.dsa.gov.uk/Documents/ordit/ORDIT_Terms.pdf

This should keep you busy for the afternoon!

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