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#76 24-12-04 18:48:03

crr003
Guest

Re: advanced driving

jk wrote:

Is there anything to stop an ADI becoming an IAM observer and how would he/she go about it?

An IAM observer is currently paying me to teach his wife to drive so maybe he appreciates the difference between teaching someone from scratch and adding to the skills of someone who already can drive.

Ask at your local IAM group (you can find it from the IAM web site).   I'm sure you'd have to take the IAM test yourself first, then undergo the Observer training.  I know some very good Observer/ADIs.

On the second point - maybe it's just safer to pay you to do it  wink   I couldn't take the abuse if I had to train mine.......
But realistically, there's a lot more of the basics to fully understand to get through the DSA test.

Roger
IAM/RoADA/ADI hopeful

24-12-04 18:48:03

AdBot
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Re: advanced driving




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#77 24-12-04 23:03:23

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: advanced driving

jk wrote:

An IAM observer is currently paying me to teach his wife to drive so maybe he appreciates the difference between teaching someone from scratch and adding to the skills of someone who already can drive.

I expect so.  I've also had 2 traffic cops talk to me about teaching their children to drive.  One of these guys is now a police driver trainer and he has the sense to know that although HE'S had some of the best training in the country it's NOT going to get his son through his driving test!!

Incidentally I told him what I thought was reasonable ...told him to take him out and teach him clutch and car control..then pass him over!

Lynne

Offline

#78 25-12-04 18:44:08

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: advanced driving

This is why I always stress that we as Observers do NOT teach we mearly offer guidance.
If anyone wants to learn to drive go to an ADI. We are not qualified ADI's,,(well most of us arn't anyway)

Online


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#79 26-12-04 11:32:47

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: advanced driving

dashdriving.com wrote:

My opinion is that any ADI who has taken no additional training apart from part two should be prosecuted under the trades description act if they offer to teach Advanced Driving. It's a shame that this can't  happen.

Of course an ADI can teach advanced driving having only taken the 3 parts required to become an ADI.

What are you comparing advanced to?

The part 2 is an advanced test.  You are only allowed a maximum of 6 errors over a longer period of driving.  That is advanced when compared to the standard driving test.  Yes there are other advanced tests that incorporate advanced techniques that are not included in the tests based on the DSA syllabus, but that doesn't make the DSA based tests less advanced.  Just different!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#80 26-12-04 12:47:24

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: advanced driving

I totally agree with you Nigel I have also mentioned this somewhere or other on one of the other posts!

Lynne

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#81 26-12-04 13:17:26

crr003
Guest

Re: advanced driving

adiNigel wrote:

  You are only allowed a maximum of 6 errors over a longer period of driving.  That is advanced when compared to the standard driving test. 
Nigel

So if a learner passes the standard DSA test with one or two faults (to allow for the shorter test duration), can he/she call his/herself "advanced"?

Just seeking clarification.

Roger


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#82 26-12-04 13:43:45

MrBassMan
Verified Member
From: Ceredigion, West Wales
Registered: 10-05-04
Posts: 669
Website

Re: advanced driving

crr003 wrote:
adiNigel wrote:

  You are only allowed a maximum of 6 errors over a longer period of driving.  That is advanced when compared to the standard driving test. 
Nigel

So if a learner passes the standard DSA test with one or two faults (to allow for the shorter test duration), can he/she call his/herself "advanced"?

Just seeking clarification.

Roger

From ADI14:

"This is not a slightly more difficult 'L' test. It is an advanced driving test and a very high standard on competence is required....."

There is more on page 12 of ADI14 about the part 2 test, I suggest that those who do not beleive Part 2 is an advanced driving test should re-read it.


Learn 2 Pass
Driving lessons in and around Ceredigion in West Wales  http://www.L2P.co.uk

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#83 26-12-04 16:22:12

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: advanced driving

crr003 wrote:

So if a learner passes the standard DSA test with one or two faults (to allow for the shorter test duration), can he/she call his/herself "advanced"?

Just seeking clarification.

Roger

I would say NO.  As I said, the ADI Part 2 test is over a LONGER period.  It usually includes ALL manouvres too, not just a selection for the learner test.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#84 26-12-04 21:52:30

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: advanced driving

AND motorway driving.

Lynne

Offline

#85 29-12-04 17:31:13

buzdriver
Guest

Re: advanced driving

this is a very heated thread i think someone has seen or heard somthing about the dsa taking over advanced driving training as well as learners. we hears my opinion on this. if in the future people have to be retested every 10 years bye the dsa then it will have to be a adi to do the training for reward. so if this new bill goes through then it could become a reality. so the guest has made a intresting points but i do think that its a bit of a wind up to get some of you a bit angry.


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#86 29-12-04 22:38:18

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: advanced driving

buzdriver wrote:

this is a very heated thread i think someone has seen or heard somthing about the dsa taking over advanced driving training as well as learners. we hears my opinion on this. if in the future people have to be retested every 10 years bye the dsa then it will have to be a adi to do the training for reward. so if this new bill goes through then it could become a reality. so the guest has made a intresting points but i do think that its a bit of a wind up to get some of you a bit angry.

There's nothing heated about this thread at all.

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#87 29-01-05 19:53:29

stuart 0521
Verified Member
From: East Sussex
Registered: 22-12-04
Posts: 32

Re: advanced driving

Been reading this thread with interest and this is just an observation, i'm not trying to make a point for or against IAM / ROSPA / DSA, indeed I'm in no position to judge IAM / ROSPA as I havn't done them.
I do however train PDI's (ordit) and over the last couple of years 3 of my students have sailed through the IAM with flying colours then shortly afterwards failed thier first attempt at part 2. Coincidence maybe or just that the two bodies are looking for different things ???.

Stuart


D.S.A. A.D.I., Ordit Registered
Pay as you go, instructor training. East Sussex

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#88 29-01-05 20:59:40

crr003
Guest

Re: advanced driving

stuart 0521 wrote:

..... over the last couple of years 3 of my students have sailed through the IAM with flying colours then shortly afterwards failed thier first attempt at part 2. Coincidence maybe or just that the two bodies are looking for different things ???.

Stuart

IAM/RoADA look for different things compared to a DSA test.  I believe there are things that will attract faults on the Part 2 - positioning and indicating in particular.

How do they know they passed "with flying colours"?  IAM is a simple pass/fail test.  RoADA has three grades and fail, which is a bit more meaningful (IMO).

Roger
IAM/RoADA/ADI hopeful

#89 29-01-05 22:49:14

simonjones
Guest

Re: advanced driving

Please pardon my ignorance; is the DIAmond Advanced test covered under the ‘DSA’? I have passed my IAM and RoSPA (Gold), and have the DIAmond one mid February. What will the examiner require me to do differently to the other tests?


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#90 29-01-05 23:39:27

crr003
Guest

Re: advanced driving

simonjones wrote:

Please pardon my ignorance; is the DIAmond Advanced test covered under the ‘DSA’? I have passed my IAM and RoSPA (Gold), and have the DIAmond one mid February. What will the examiner require me to do differently to the other tests?

It's my understanding that the DIAmond test is based on DSA marking......like a really hard L Test.  I'm ready to be corrected though.

So forget about getting any vision on a left hand bend.

Roger

#91 30-01-05 14:33:59

harvey
Guest

Re: advanced driving

deleted!

#92 30-01-05 15:38:54

simonjones
Guest

Re: advanced driving

Thanks, harvey – that’s in accordance with what my instructor told me. I’m toying with the idea of having a go at the DIAmond Special later in the year, although I sometimes wonder if it’s a bit out of my reach, simply by it’s reputation. Then again, I can honestly say (without too much conceit) that I am an experienced and accomplished driver . . . when I passed my PCV, three years ago, the test was an hour and a half, and I only had two minors. How many other people here have taken the DIAmond Special? And how did you find it?


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#93 12-02-05 13:31:03

dashdriving.com
Member
From: Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Hu
Registered: 29-11-04
Posts: 148
Website

Re: advanced driving

crr003 wrote:


So if a learner passes the standard DSA test with one or two faults (to allow for the shorter test duration), can he/she call his/herself "advanced"?

Just seeking clarification.

Roger


I would say NO. As I said, the ADI Part 2 test is over a LONGER period. It usually includes ALL manouvres too, not just a selection for the learner test.

Nigel

Can I just clarify, what does this mean please? Are you saying that the part 2 ADI is 'advanced' and the learner test is not, simply because it usually lasts longer and includes more maneouvres?

If so, does that mean that, as ADI's we should teach our learners to drive well only for the 30 minutes during a test? Sorry, I got a bit confused there, I thought we should be teaching them safe driving for life. In other words the duration of the test has no relevance whatsoever and is purely down to limited time from the examiners point of view. Sorry, my mistake.

Also, it's advanced because it has all of the maneouvres? Again, sorry, my mistake? I thought we should teach learners all the possible maneouvres up to test standard? I always thought that the DSA could ask them to do any on a test and that, again, the number they do was only limited by the time available to the examiner and the restrictions due to the area of the test centre. My mistake, sorry. Just as a point, in all the part 2 tests I've been involved with, I have never seen one test where all the DSA maneouvres were asked for.

So apart from these points, what, exactly, makes part 2 'advanced'? Regardless of DSA terminology, if the marking for faults is the same as for an L test, why does it make it 'advanced'?

You have your view, I have mine. I remain unchanged in my view which is based on my experience. I find it utterly incredible that any ADI can claim to be able to teach 'advanced' driving, after only passing a test based on the learner syllabus, and never EVER being tested again. Lot's of ADI's are quite prepared to put themselves through the stresses of joining the IAM or ROSPA and facing up to the challenges of learning something new and having their driving assessed by others. Very well done to them. They will learn a great deal more about driving than they will by passing part 2 and then doing no further re training at all, ever.

The IAM, ROSPA, the Police and many other driving organisations who claim to carry out advanced driving have regular voluntary or compulsary re testing or assessment and re training. These organisations seem to acept and encourage improvement in skills as an ongoing process. I am just amazed as an ADI that I never have to do part 2 again.

I have heard rumblings in the SE's office recently that compulsary re testing at part 2 may be introduced. It will probably never happen. Where would they find the SE's to do the testing? There aren't enough now. If you think the HPT re testing was sorely received, wait for this one if it is introduced! watch out for the stampede of ADI's running to post off their petitions then.

We all have our opinions. Mine remains that an awfull lot of ADI's are very poor drivers., yet they can advertise to teach advanced driving.

regards


Dave Hartley
ADI Trainer for Dash driving

www.dashdriving.com

you never do anything wrong,
you just find new ways of not doing it right.

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#94 13-02-05 08:04:09

hdw-68
Guest

Re: advanced driving

Imade a post on this forum yesterday evening.

Who removed it?

Wasn't it politically correct.

hdw


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#95 13-02-05 08:45:45

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: advanced driving

hdw-68 wrote:

Imade a post on this forum yesterday evening.

Who removed it?

Wasn't it politically correct.

hdw

Well I haven't seen it,my internet server has not been back on long,perhaps if you posted it again we could see if it was "politically correct" your words not mine.

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#96 13-02-05 14:33:09

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: advanced driving

I saw the post that you were referring to, I to do not know where it went all I can think is that someone removed it for whatever reason only known to them.

Possibly someone would like to explain to the ones who saw it and who were going to reply to it why it was removed,I now can not make this reply,as no one else will know what the fuss if any was about.

My only comment to it would be that the people who contribute to the organisations in there spare time such as IAM.ROSPA,etc do a good job and a valuable contribution to road safety.

All I can say is that you sound as if you are ex forces and not police as you will have only trained V.I.P. drivers off road in this country ie ambush techniques etc.

If you want to come on this forum and upset the majority rather than make friends then that is what you look like you have done,and this is why your post has been removed,so enough said I will have to go and polish my halo as it is after all Sunday.
                 Stephen

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#97 13-02-05 21:48:07

hdw-68
Guest

Re: advanced driving

Hi Stephen7738,

I realise that my post was slightly "provocative" but I did read the forum rules before posting it. It represented my personal views on advanced driving and the point I was trying to make was that "advanced driving" means different things to different people.

I cannot confirm (or deny) that I am ex military but you are free to draw your own conclusions.

Whoever moderates this forum - may I ask why I was not sent an email (or a PM) explaining why my post was removed (as explained in the forum rules)?? I cannot believe that it was SO BAD.

Can't see the point of it all if views can not be expressed.

Bye all.  I'm outta here.

hdw

#98 13-02-05 22:05:18

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: advanced driving

Dave,

Since you seem to be easily confused, I will try and explain my views in a simpler way.

The standard learner test tends to be over a period of about 30-35 minutes driving and is likely to include 2 manouvres plus, perhaps, an emergency stop.  The candidate is allowed up to 15 minor errors abd still pass.

The ADI part 2 is over a longer period and is likely to include ALL manouvres.  This time the candidate is only allowed a maximum of 6 errors.

To my mind then, it is harder to pass the ADI part 2 than it is to pass the standard l test.  That make the test more advanced in my view.

As I said before, there are advanced tests that follow the DSA syllabus and there are advanced tests that incorporate advanced techniques.  All are advanced tests but in different ways.  You need to be more tolerant of others that don't agree with your views.

Do you actually have any evidence of ADI's that are bad drivers advertising advanced driving?  I would be interested to see it.

As for the DSA bringing in retesting at part 2.  Since driving is tested on a regular basis I really don't care if they do bring it in, I'm confident that my driving is of a high enough standard to cope with it.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#99 13-02-05 23:07:10

Graham
Guest

Re: advanced driving

I think Nigel has hit the nail on the head with the comment that the ADI Part 2 test is more advanced than the L test. The important word here is 'MORE'.

All this advanced driving talk is relative. To what??

If it's the L test, then yes, just about any subsequent test will be 'advanced'.

In the context of advertising yourself as being able to offer 'advanced driver training', then surely the client has an expectation that they will be offered something that will substantially increase their skill level. To that end, the Part 2 test just doesn't cut it. Sure it's a step up from an L test, but as a potential client, I would be asking for more than that.

I'm happy to accept differing views on this subject, but when we talk about advertising, then some lines surely have to be drawn.


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#100 14-02-05 07:31:06

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: advanced driving

Graham wrote:

Sure it's a step up from an L test, but as a potential client, I would be asking for more than that.

But then you are aware of the different types of advanced driving.  Is Joe Public aware?  I would suggest not.  Some of the delegates I meet on the National Driver Improvement Scheme ask about advanced tests and I will always recommend they approach the IAM or RoSPA and not pay for hourly lessons with an ADI.  Why?  Not because the ADI can't cut it but because the IAM/RoSPA approach is by far the most cost effective for the client.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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