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#1 21-12-04 18:16:50

simonjones
Guest

Reversing

Hello all, I’m new here. I am a civilian driver, working for the RAF. I drive cars, vans, lorries, mini-buses, buses, coaches, ambulances and forklift trucks, and have all the relevant licences. Part time, I am a chauffeur in vintage, prestige and classic cars (mainly Rolls-Royces) for weddings. In addition, I have undertaken an Advanced Course at the John Watson Performance Driving Centre, Silverstone and passed my IAM test. Over the next couple of months I intend to take (and hopefully pass) my motorbike test, and the RoSPA and DIAmond Advanced Driving tests (slowly working my way up to my Cycle Proficiency test).

Anyway, I am currently having driving lessons to help me get out of my bad habits; my instructor is an ex-policeman, having passed the Class 1 Police Driving test. He’s also a professional ADI and an IAM examiner.

Right, after that long introduction, here’s my point: I learned to drive in a van, and later gained my HGV Class 1 and PCV licences, all contributing to my habit of relying on my wing mirrors only for reversing. I am now trying to get out of this habit after over twenty years of driving. My instructor says that all the time I am moving backwards, I should be looking out of the back window, “Without exception”. Now, with my car, when I do that, I can’t see half as much as if used my mirrors. OK, he said, use them, but when doing so, stop the car. My personal point of view is that it would be all right to make good, all-round observation (using the mirrors, but not relying on them), glancing at the front of the car, all around the sides, AND the back, and not have to stop the car during the manoeuvre. I'm paying this man good money, and it would be foolish of me not to listen to him, but . . .

All right, a lot of words for such a small point, so thank you for bearing with me.

21-12-04 18:16:50

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Re: Reversing




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#2 21-12-04 19:53:18

MrBassMan
Verified Member
From: Ceredigion, West Wales
Registered: 10-05-04
Posts: 669
Website

Re: Reversing

When you are driving forward, do you stop the car to look in your mirrors or do you keep the 'look' as short as possible to see what is there without effecting your awareness of the road in front?

OK - so now think in the same way when driving backwards.

That's just my opinion - I know other people teach 'stop' while looking forward, some teach, 'slow down' while looking forward.


Learn 2 Pass
Driving lessons in and around Ceredigion in West Wales  http://www.L2P.co.uk

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#3 21-12-04 20:13:54

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Reversing

simonjones wrote:

Right, after that long introduction, here’s my point: I learned to drive in a van, and later gained my HGV Class 1 and PCV licences, all contributing to my habit of relying on my wing mirrors only for reversing. I am now trying to get out of this habit after over twenty years of driving. My instructor says that all the time I am moving backwards, I should be looking out of the back window, “Without exception”. Now, with my car, when I do that, I can’t see half as much as if used my mirrors. OK, he said, use them, but when doing so, stop the car. My personal point of view is that it would be all right to make good, all-round observation (using the mirrors, but not relying on them), glancing at the front of the car, all around the sides, AND the back, and not have to stop the car during the manoeuvre. I'm paying this man good money, and it would be foolish of me not to listen to him, but . . .

I will very rarely say that someones point of view is wrong but I really think your instructor is wrong in this case.  When reversing, your primary view should be over your left shoulder and out of the back window, BUT you do, also, need to glance around to see what may be approaching from the front and also from the right.  You will gain more peripheral vision by turning your head and looking out the rear window than you will by looking in the two mirrors.  The key phrase I believe is ALL ROUND vision.
As Mr Bassman has said, you may want to slow down further or even stop when you glance round.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#4 21-12-04 21:24:10

Midge
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 414
Website

Re: Reversing

"When you are driving forward, do you stop the car to look in your mirrors or do you keep the 'look' as short as possible to see what is there without effecting your awareness of the road in front? "

No,  but, as I tell my pupils, if I stuck a mirror near the rear window, would you keep looking round to it while you are driving forward.  I just tell my pupils they can PAUSE  if they want to while they are taking all round observation,  but most of the time they should be looking in the direction they are going.


Midge  -   Dip D.I.

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#5 22-12-04 09:05:28

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: Reversing

yet again more discrepancies in advanced driving techniques!!!!
isnt the idea to complete the manouvre in as littel time as safely possible so as not to be an inconvenience to others?
SO if you stop each time obs are required then youd take 3 times longer to complete manouvre. Slow it right down (barely rolling) look around and take in as much details as possible over your left shoulder just before you have a quick look round then back over left shoulder.
Not that id want to disagree with your instructor but if you're reversing uphill its a pain in the butt stopping every time


Im so good its unbelievable

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#6 22-12-04 10:19:15

Anonymous
Guest

Re: Reversing

if the car is going very slowly then a quick glance forword is ok but you must look over your left shulder

#7 22-12-04 22:52:16

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: Reversing

TDC,
         What is the discrepancy between Advanced techniques, as far as I can see Simonjones states he is having driving lessons to get rid of any bad habits ,and is doing this through an ADI, no mention of Advanced instruction. So forgive me but i can not see what the problem is apart from the ADI is putting his interpretation of how to teach reversing .
                          Stephen

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#8 23-12-04 07:05:45

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Reversing

Stephen7738 wrote:

TDC,
         What is the discrepancy between Advanced techniques, as far as I can see Simonjones states he is having driving lessons to get rid of any bad habits ,and is doing this through an ADI, no mention of Advanced instruction. So forgive me but i can not see what the problem is apart from the ADI is putting his interpretation of how to teach reversing .
                          Stephen

As far as I am concerned, the problem is that Simon has been told....

My instructor says that all the time I am moving backwards, I should be looking out of the back window, “Without exception”.

In my eyes that instruction is TOTALLY WRONG!   Good ALL ROUND visual checks should be made.  Yes the main looking should be in the direction you are going, ie if reversing then over you left shoulder out the back window, but every so often a check should be made to see what may be approaching from ahead and from the right hand side!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#9 23-12-04 08:36:07

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: Reversing

well look at his instructors qualifications and also it seems the original poster is training for advanced driving? else why on this board?
yet if what is posted is believed the advice aint too hot is it??? (see above post for details) or are you trying to hide behind the fact the instructor is an adi and overlooking the iam and police connection which by your post seems to be conveniently done as you continaully mention adi but no mention of ex policeman, class 1 police driver and iam examiner.
happy xmas


Im so good its unbelievable

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#10 23-12-04 20:47:32

simonjones
Guest

Re: Reversing

Just to clarify, but not to cause any trouble, the lessons I am having are focussing on Advanced driver training. The reason I chose this instructor was mainly because of him being an ex-traffic cop and because of his experience examining for the IAM.

I believe he was wrong about what he told me about reversing. However, in every other way, he is helping me successfully iron out my bad habits, and refining many other little things, giving me a few tips about how traffic police are taught themselves. Hopefully this will stand me in good stead when it comes to my RoSPA test.

And then, after that, I’ll glean what I can from his experience as an instructor to help me with my DIAmond test.

#11 24-12-04 12:34:50

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: Reversing

ty Simon  best of luck in your training, its not the end of the world stopping to do obs but , as im sure you are aware, a lot easier to keep it rolling albeit slowly.


Im so good its unbelievable

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#12 24-12-04 16:14:03

Eddie
Guest

Re: Reversing

Hi, Simon.

I don't know whether I'll help you clarify anything or just confuse the issue, but here goes:

"Left shoulder without exception" cannot **always** be an acceptable technique, simply because so many vehicles, these days (SUVs and people carriers being the primary examples) have blind spots  on the B or C pillars (and even D pillars where such exist). In addition the greater length of such vehicles inevitably means that the rear window is further from the driver and therefore, by the laws of physics, offers a narrower view.

On the other hand, some shorter cars with reasonably large rear windows can offer a wonderful view to a left-shoulder rearward-looker(!), so the first factor to be considered is the actual vehicle. And, of course, your own example of vans proves this point entirely.

I, personally, certainly do not think it is necessary to stop if a driver feels the need to briefly check over the other shoulder or use either wing mirror. The answer here undoubtedly lies in accurate (i.e. adequately slow moving) vehicle control which is, of course, to be expected from all but absolute beginners.

For the record -- given the direction this string has taken -- I, too, am a former UK traffic patrol police officer, and also a former UK DOT ADI.

All the best,

Eddie
www.driveandstayalive.com

#13 24-12-04 16:15:48

Eddie
Guest

Re: Reversing

The previous message should read:

"...have **major** blind spots on the B or C pillars..."

Eddie

#14 27-12-04 16:29:11

jimbo
Guest

Re: Reversing

How about some common sence, reversing slowly mainly looking out the back for safety and using the mirrors to help has to be a normal safe sensible way to go.

Thats what i and i expect most ADIs teach


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#15 27-12-04 18:02:27

Approved Instructor
Verified Member
From: Blackburn, Preston, Lancashire
Registered: 16-03-04
Posts: 884
Website

Re: Reversing

100% Agree with jimbo.

Looking out of the back window with a brief glance in the nearside door mirror, following on to look forward for approaching traffic, then right or offside door mirror, and a quick blind spot check.
Then looking out of the back window again, repeat the above at your discretion, based on traffic conditions and weather conditions.

I do not think you should stop the car every time you look round, as a general rule.

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#16 27-12-04 18:36:36

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: Reversing

Jimbo and Approved Instructor are 100% correct in what they say,and this is the way I tell the Associates to reverse.
There really is NO need to stop the car everytime you look around.

This was the way I was shown by my Observers and by the Police advanced trainer drivers.

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#17 27-12-04 18:48:15

simonjones
Guest

Re: Reversing

Thanks to all of you for your contributions. My instructor has a lot to teach me, but is a bit of an old fuddy-duddy (bless him). I still reverse like I always have, checking every available view around the vehicle, and in one continual movement.

I’ve just found out that my RoSPA examiner lives almost directly opposite me, and feel he’s watching me every time I park. So, if everything else goes wrong at the end of January, my reversing will be well-rehearsed.


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#18 27-12-04 18:53:43

drivetime
Verified Member
From: North Kent
Registered: 01-03-04
Posts: 216
Website

Re: Reversing

100% agree with Jimbo, Approved Instructor and Gizmotime

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#19 27-12-04 19:17:28

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: Reversing

When i took my test some 25yrs ago i was told to look out of the back window by my instructor,even when i took my police driving courses they just told me to get a good alround view and the only time that i had to stop and check my blind spot was when the front of the vehicle swung into the road,mind you most of the driving was forward there was not much ephasis on reversing,we were mainly taught ofside reverse or U turn.
            Stephen

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#20 28-02-05 00:08:01

Paul W
Guest

Re: Reversing

See the link below for footage of some rather dubious reversing.
Illegal granted but amazing to watch.

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/verygooddriver.html

Oh and this for some lane discipline instruction:

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/dangerousdriver.html

My advice for reversing is to get as much vision in as possible via the Windows, Mirrors and Sunroof if needs be.

Paul.


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#21 26-09-07 12:55:04

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,697
Website

Re: Reversing

100% Agree with jimbo...Looking out of the back window with a brief glance in the nearside door mirror, following on to look forward for approaching traffic, then right or offside door mirror, and a quick blind spot check...Then looking out of the back window again, repeat the above at your discretion, based on traffic conditions and weather conditions...I do not think you should stop the car every time you look round, as a general rule...

Hope you don't mind me resurrecting an old thread, just discovered it  wink
Approved Instructor has summed up my views neatly.

I was taught that windows are superior to mirrors in that the view is more direct, easier to judge distances and relative speed, when compared to a mirror giving the same centre of view. But I've noticed many ADIs take this too literally and insist on rear window only.

Another advantage of looking forward on a regular basis is that a forwards view allows the driver to orient themselves space-wise (e.g. distance from & angle to the kerb is more intuitive when looking ahead).

An example of taking it too far... one of our TCs has wide picture windows which are tinted and act like very effective mirrors in our bright sunshine. I have found some students insist on only looking rearwards (mirrors & windows) when reversing out and are rather startled when prompted to look forward and they see the whole car and the park behind reflected in clear view, with themselves sitting goggle-eyed behind the wheel.
(Effect spoiled somewhat by the view of the ugly old grey-bearded codger sitting beside them).


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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