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#1 20-09-06 22:46:28

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,597

confusion with IAM

I was having a discussion with some colleagues about speeding and the subject arose regarding the IAM test.  I was actively encouraged by observers and senior observers to exceed the speed limit of 70mph on the motorway as motorists are given a 10% leeway thus reaching speeds up to 75mph.  I did this on the IAM test and passed with flying colours.  If I was caught on a safety camera doing 75mph would I have been prosecuted?

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20-09-06 22:46:28

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Re: confusion with IAM




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#2 20-09-06 22:52:46

Approved Instructor
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From: Blackburn, Preston, Lancashire
Registered: 16-03-04
Posts: 884
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Re: confusion with IAM

If you was caught doing 75, then your car speed dial would read about 79/81

If your dial was reading 75 then you may have been driving at a speed of about 69.

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#3 20-09-06 22:57:27

VandADI
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From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,597

Re: confusion with IAM

Ahhh I see,  I was definitely doing 75mph according to MY speedo.  Is that where the 10% leeway comes in as that would probably register on a safety camera at 70mph?

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#4 21-09-06 05:40:03

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
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Re: confusion with IAM

What Nigel states above is true of most cars speedos, they have to be set initialy the 'Good way'.
Trouble is they dont always stay that way.To encourage speeding can never be correct, fair enough for safety reasons on the motorway is may be necessary to exceed the speed limit in the 3rd lane on occasions.
This wouldnt be considered okay on any DSA test or diamond advanced/special test, it would be considered a fault if you got yourself into a position where you needed to speed.
Never presome the acpo giudelines of 10% + 2 mph as all police forces do not use them,they are guidelines.
North Wales for instance have a zero tolerance policy.
Surely the next stage is people  may think 33  in a  30 is okay?
And if 75 is considered acceptable how easy is it to creep up to 80?


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#5 21-09-06 06:08:55

ExAdiNigel
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From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: confusion with IAM

I would agree with Hector.  Encouraging someone to break the speed limit is NOT acceptable.  If it is necessary to break the speed limit to carry out an overtake for example, it needs to be questioned as to how necessary is the overtake.

The speedos these days are a lot more accurate than they used to be, I was comparing mine with the sat nav recently and there was cetainly less than 10% difference between the two.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#6 21-09-06 11:21:53

Nat
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Posts: 169

Re: confusion with IAM

In an ideal world where everyone is driving by the book and with consideration for others I agree that the overtake would not be necessary if you had to speed to do it, but how many times have you been in a situation where the driver infront was doing 60, you move to the outside lane and they speed up to 70 with you "stuck" next to them? neutral

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#7 21-09-06 19:14:53

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
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Re: confusion with IAM

Yeah does happen Nat thats when it may  be okay to accelerate out of danger.
There is a problem with this encouraging speeding though nearly always from ex police.


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#8 21-09-06 21:59:19

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: confusion with IAM

In an ideal world where everyone is driving by the book and with consideration for others I agree that the overtake would not be necessary if you had to speed to do it, but how many times have you been in a situation where the driver infront was doing 60, you move to the outside lane and they speed up to 70 with you "stuck" next to them? neutral

and if you ease your foot off the accelerator a little, your car will slow down and you can slot back in behind the pillock - problem solved!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#9 21-09-06 22:32:46

timmanwaringadi
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From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
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Re: confusion with IAM

I agree with Nigel here, when you "give in" to them, and slot back in behind them, they tend to feel a bit silly, and you usually find that the next time they slow down you can overtake without them getting competetive.

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#10 22-09-06 09:27:07

GreenLight
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From: West Devon / East Cornwall
Registered: 26-02-04
Posts: 227
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Re: confusion with IAM

Hi Vanda

To return to the subject of your post which, incidentally, I read last evening after a day spent training clients on a Speed Awareness Course!

One of the exercises I do with the group is to get them to list why drivers speed (the excuses) and then why drivers should not speed (the reasons).

Of course, they always find it easier to list the excuses than the reasons but eventually one of the group will come up with the very good reason that it is illegal!

So I am afraid I cannot agree with your IAM observer. I have been a member of IAM since 1971 and was an observer myself at one time before becoming an ADI. I am now, additionally, a member of RoSPA advanced drivers association and therefore, retested every three years.

The examiner will always look for a 'brisk' drive with 'progress' being made when ever it is safe to do so, but I have never been expected to exceed a speed limit. Indeed on one occasion it was pointed out to me in the debrief that I had allowed the speedometer to creep over 70mph on the dual carriageway. No motorways down here in Cornwall!

Larry

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#11 22-09-06 09:51:12

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,597

Re: confusion with IAM

Hi Larry,
Funnily enough, this topic of conversation came up as the ADI I was with had also attended a training session on a Speed Awareness Course, having a discussion about the reasons drivers speed and the answers they gave etc.,most of them not knowing speed limits/signs.
I agree with you all about the 70mph limit but found it astonishing that the advice I was given by Observers/Senior Observers is law breaking and when questioned the response I got was 10% leeway. yikes

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#12 22-09-06 13:05:53

Target
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From: Winchmore Hill North London
Registered: 17-01-05
Posts: 5,695
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Re: confusion with IAM

I've recently taken 2 IAMS assessment drive, both assesors were very clear that speeding was a fail, and since your sitting next to a police driver they are not going to let it pass.

Assuming the perfect drive, the only time I would knowingly exceed the speed limit would be if I felt it was going to avoid an accident.

In your case Natalie, slowing down is safer if the person you are overtaking speeds up. When you start to overtake they suddenly realise how slow they have been going and increase the speed.

I was readying an article in the local rag.

The police have been running stingers around the borough and it was found that half the drivers pulled over were parents on the school run.


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#13 22-09-06 16:15:31

MrBassMan
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From: Ceredigion, West Wales
Registered: 10-05-04
Posts: 669
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Re: confusion with IAM

To me this highlights a problem with IAM that I found, namely the quality of observers and the advice they give.

I have no doubt there are some excellent ones out there but there also ones propogating bad advice.

What tests do these observers need to pass and what checks are made on them? This is not a dig at the IAM - this is a genuine question.


Learn 2 Pass
Driving lessons in and around Ceredigion in West Wales  http://www.L2P.co.uk

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#14 22-09-06 19:09:42

Doug
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From: Gloucestershire
Registered: 02-05-04
Posts: 958
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Re: confusion with IAM

IAM observers are now subject to DSA approved standards of checking, So DSA are happy for observers to carry on as non ADIs???
Doug

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#15 22-09-06 20:10:47

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: confusion with IAM

If I may stick my oar in here, hope you don't mind sorry if you do.
But at our group we are checked every 12 months to make sure we are still doing everything correctly, we are checked by the Senior Observers who have been checked by the Examiners who are either Serving Examiners with the Police force or they are retired Police driving examiners.
Speeding is an automatic fail, if you cannot overtake within the law and the speed limits then you don't do it.

Giz

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#16 22-09-06 20:12:22

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,597

Re: confusion with IAM

If that is the case then I should have failed as on my test I did 75mph on the motorway as advised to by my Senior Observer  yikes

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#17 22-09-06 21:33:03

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: confusion with IAM

IAM observers are now subject to DSA approved standards of checking, So DSA are happy for observers to carry on as non ADIs???
Doug

Doug, there is now a structure to the training that observers have to undergo and a standard they have to maintain (both, in the IAM and in RoADAR).  I don't think you will find that the DSA have anything whatsoever to do with this.  As to whether the DSA are happy for observers to continue as non-ADI's, it is absolutely none of their business!  and nor should it be!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#18 22-09-06 21:34:34

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: confusion with IAM

VandA

Do you fancy stirring things up a little?  How about a letter to IAM HQ asking if the advice & encouragement you received from your observer / senior observer is correct? :evil:

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#19 23-09-06 14:54:26

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: confusion with IAM

MrBassMan wrote:

What tests do these observers need to pass and what checks are made on them? This is not a dig at the IAM - this is a genuine question.

According to their website, the only qualification an observer needs is to be a volounteer and a member of the local IAM group.
The £85 fee  is for membership and not instruction.

You have to do a H/Code test/ and get 76% to pass you also have to have Observerd runs with a Senior Observer for 5 weeks with you acting as an Observer, you also have to have 5 runs with an Associate in the driving seat and a Senior Observer in the back checking you, then if you pass you Qualify to be an Observer, as I said we at our group are checked regularly.

The fee is £85 which includes all books the test fee, and the first years membership to the IAM and your local group, all the Observerd drives are free of charge.

Giz

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#20 23-09-06 15:34:08

MrBassMan
Verified Member
From: Ceredigion, West Wales
Registered: 10-05-04
Posts: 669
Website

Re: confusion with IAM

we at our group are checked regularly.

How does it happen that such obviously bad advice is given by observers? I am refering to both the topic of this thread and my own experience of being given the same bad advice (re signalling) by more than one observer.

It sounds like your group are doing a great deal to ensure quality. Is your group unique in it's monitoring procedures or are you following some national guidelines?


Learn 2 Pass
Driving lessons in and around Ceredigion in West Wales  http://www.L2P.co.uk

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#21 23-09-06 16:16:58

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: confusion with IAM

Gizmotime wrote:

we at our group are checked regularly.

How does it happen that such obviously bad advice is given by observers? I am refering to both the topic of this thread and my own experience of being given the same bad advice (re signalling) by more than one observer.

It sounds like your group are doing a great deal to ensure quality. Is your group unique in it's monitoring procedures or are you following some national guidelines?

As I have said before I cannot comment on other groups as I don't work with them, ALL the groups are supposed to work to the guidlines set out by the IAM which is what we do at our group.
We have a very good reputation for having a good group and good Observers. Every group is supposed to have there Observers checked at least every 12 months and we ensure we do this, it annoys me so much when I read the stories of what SOME groups are like.
I wish you could come and see just how we run our group and what the Observers have to go through to keep up the standards required.

Giz

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#22 24-09-06 08:43:30

Leprechaun
Member
Registered: 19-03-06
Posts: 264

Re: confusion with IAM

Our group is not as good as it should be  :oops:

I'm an observer but i didn't go through all the strict procedures gizmotime talks about.

Before i started my official observer training i sat in on the back of other  associates' observed drives for about 3-4 months. I then did a 6 week training course which involved me driving the 6 set routes that our group has and then a couple of hours theory. While i was doing this course i was still sitting in on observed drives. At the end of the course i had to do a test consisting of 3 papers - highway code, roadcraft and group admin stuff.

Once i'd passed the test i was considered a 'trained observer' and i was supposed to have 2 drives with me observing an associate and a senior observer in the back. About 12 months later i realised this hadn't been done so i mentioned it and kept mentioning it. By the time i'd been a 'trained observer' for nearly 2 years i had one drive where a senior observer sat in the back and after that he said i'd passed and had my qualification.

That wasn't yet 12 months ago so i don't know if i'll be checked again after the 12 months is up - i suspect not considering how long it took for me to get my qualified status  neutral

To go back to the original IAM test. In my debrief i was i'd let the speedo creep up to 35 in a 30 during the first 5 minutes of my test but because he was giving me a few minutes 'settling down time' and i brought it down straight away and didn't do it again he'd let it pass. I suspect he wouldn't have been so generous if it had been a recurring error, whether on the motorway or anywhere else.

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#23 24-09-06 11:04:24

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: confusion with IAM

Our group is not as good as it should be  :oops:

I'm an observer but i didn't go through all the strict procedures gizmotime talks about.

a test consisting of 3 papers - highway code, roadcraft and group admin stuff.

It just goes to show doesn't it then the difference in SOME groups, now you see why I get annoyed at times. We should ALL be doing the same.

The papers, H/Code and Admin stuff is the same as us though, Thank God  roll

Online

#24 28-09-06 08:26:00

ADI349
Verified Member
From: East Yorkshire
Registered: 24-01-05
Posts: 193

Re: confusion with IAM

Someone mentioned that IAM examiners are all either retired or current police examiners.  This is not the case, some may well be the above however a large number are Police Advanced Drivers, they have not been and are not Police Advanced Instuctors/examiners. This is the case In my area for instance.
They do undergo training with the IAM although I am not sure to what extent.  I used to be involved with the IAM but no longer am due to a number of reasons including the variation of interpretation of what is advice and what is instruction/teaching.

Steve W wink


If you only do what you've always done, you will only achieve what you've always achieved

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#25 28-09-06 20:44:31

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: confusion with IAM

....including the variation of interpretation of what is advice and what is instruction/teaching.
Steve W wink

Does it matter which it is?

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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