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#1 19-03-04 11:33:44

DSE
Verified Member
From: North East England and Scotlan
Registered: 03-03-04
Posts: 113
Website

Why CPD

OK, This may get one or two backs up and is bound to generate a response but here is my opinion on CPD and why there is a place for it in our industry.

I am involved in training ADIs for various things including fleet register qualification, check test training, cardington and other advanced tests, etc, so I see enough working ADIs to form an opinion. In recent months my thoughts have turned to having a certain empathy with the DSA when they say that standards need improving.  Before you all jump down my throat I accept that this is proabably being read by those to whom it does not apply - but read on and form your own opinion.

There are around 33,000 ADIs. This forum has under 300 members, other similar forums have similar figures. Membership of other organisations maybe accounts for 10,000 ADIs so that means that around 50% of ADIs actually care enough about their profession to show an interest. Yes, I even class reading a forum such as this as CPD because you can learn and develop from it.

What that means is that there are some 15,000 plus instructors working in this country who are working at the bottom end of the market, scraping a grade 4 and being satisfied with it, and not interested in furthering their skills or improving their teaching style and methods. As far as they are concerned they have their green badge and that is it.

I should maybe point out at this stage that whilst I have an empathy with the DSA in promoting CPD, I do disagree wholeheartedly with the way they are doing it and the choice of the HPT as being the first hurdle - but that is another story.

Here are some points I have come across in recent weeks that have turned my thinking this way. I have actually witnessed this during training.

1. The ADI of 25 years standing who was telling his pupils that the nearside mirror was for reversing only.

2. The ADI who thought that the national speed limit on a single carriage way was 70mph - but taught his learners that 50 was enough to pass the test so not to go any further.

3. Numerous ADIs who teach that it is a fail if you move forward in order to correct a stray reverse.

4. An ADI who spent 5 minutes of a lesson telling their learner the importance of checking the mirroe before applying the brake in an emergency stop exercise.

5. An ADI who was using the duals to drive pupils home from their first lesson to give them 'a feel for being behind the wheel'!!

6. ADIs who teach that you must stop at a give way line, or you can not put a car into first gear unless it is completely stationary.

I could go on - but the bottom line is that every day I encounter instructors who would simply not get anywhere near passing a part 3 if they had to do so at today's standards. The general standard has been allowed to slip and too many instructors have not moved with the times.  You would be alarmed if you visited your dentist and he was still employing methods he used when he first qualified 20 years ago, yet many instructors are guilty of the same thing.

So, in my humble opinion, there is very much a need for CPD in this industry. The way it is done is very much open for debate but there should be something. Really there should not be the need for the DSA to be heavy handed over it because I think a professional ADI should take it on his or herself anyway to continually improve the service they offer.

I would go for a points system where by an ADI gathers points for different qualifications or courses etc, e.g. A diamond advanced test is worth 5 points, a Rospa gold is worth 7, etc, etc. The idea is that you must obtain a minimum number of points every 4 year period. This way you can choose the qualification that is most suited to your particular branch of work - for example an instructor working in an area with foreign students might decide to learn their language - they get points for this as it is CPD but it is also very relevent to their area of work. As an incentive the cost of your green badge could be linked to the points you amass.

As I said at the start, I think you good folk reading this are probably not the people to whom it applies - but before you start berating my opinions, bear in mind that there are thousands more ADIs to whom it very much does.

I look forward to hearing your opinions- whether you agree or not.


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Register of Fleet Driver Trainers

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19-03-04 11:33:44

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Re: Why CPD



#2 19-03-04 12:04:06

Badger
Guest

Re: Why CPD

Nothing to berate really DSE what you say is what it is.

However in defence of the ADI in 'isolation' I would say that it is not easy to keep up to date in this profession as there are few common sources of information.  There are a few books about of varying effectiveness the best of which probably is the DIA Instructors Manual with its updating facility.

Every ADI should have one of these and I think that it ought to be produced by the DSA so that they could incorporate their changes and  thus keep the professoin up to date with what they are doing.

Having said that thought there is even diversity of opinion amongst the DSA themselves over the various regions.

In my view the DSA should run courses to update ADIs and thus achieve a near common standard.

I see no harm in doing a theory test at every check test - it merely verifies that the ADI is up to date and justifies the public confidence.

CORGI registered plumbers have to do it periodically because of the dangers of gas and it involves an assessment on the job.

We do it because our profession is critical to saving lives on the road.

The medical profession I dont know about but Im sure that the BMA has some sort of check on its members to keep them on the register.

Thats enough from me for now but we appear to be cooking from the same recipe here.

Badger

#3 19-03-04 12:20:24

pageant
Guest

Re: Why CPD

Dont understand No. 5 DSE. I do it myself. perfectly good practice. What a waste of valuable lesson time driving them home yourself. I always give them the option. Gives a better idea of their steering ability and you can discuss mirror use in a more realistic setting.

#4 19-03-04 12:33:57

DSE
Verified Member
From: North East England and Scotlan
Registered: 03-03-04
Posts: 113
Website

Re: Why CPD

I fail to see how a pupil having undergone an initial lesson, usually consisting of controls and moving off and stopping, is then going to benefit from sitting behind the wheel with very little or no control over the vehicle while they attempt to drive home over busy roads, with the instructor using the duals to control the car!

I certainly do not see it as 'good practice'. I consider it dangerous and irresponsible to both the pupil and to other road users.

I look forward to other members opinions of this.


www.d-s-e.co.uk


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Accredited Course provider for
Register of Fleet Driver Trainers

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by highly qualified grade 6 ADIs.
See website or email for details of our services.

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#5 19-03-04 12:53:30

bigred
Verified Member
From: Kent
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 1,592
Website

Re: Why CPD

Going back to DSE's original post, I firmly believe a CPD points system is the only way forward. Monitoring it is the problem! If it is introduced it will be voluntary to start with, perhaps leading to a compulsory nature a few years later.

In my post -

http://iseekhere.com/learn2driveforum/v … .php?t=280

I give a couple of links to the draft version of the card I am using for both my instructors and for instructors belonging to the local association. I am still looking for comments and ideas on how we can make it work.

I keep hearing good ideas, but nobody seems to be putting them into practice, I am quite happy to be criticised so long as some of it is constructive.

Regards,

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#6 19-03-04 16:22:22

Liesa
Guest

Re: Why CPD

Pageant wrote

Dont understand No. 5 DSE. I do it myself. perfectly good practice. What a waste of valuable lesson time driving them home yourself. I always give them the option. Gives a better idea of their steering ability and you can discuss mirror use in a more realistic setting.

I'm sorry I have to agree with DSE on this one, the number of times I've taken on pupils, who have previously had lessons with someone else, who has used this approach is horendous. It usually does far more harm than good!

One example is an 18 year old girl I'm teaching, she'd had 4 lessons with someone else, and in all this time she'd never stopped the car herself or changed gear . She could move the car away but when it came to stopping hadn't got a clue. This pupil had actually been driving on rural roads and from what I can gather they'd been travelling at about 50 - 60mph ( frightening in my oppinion ) When I took her on she was a total and utter nervous wreck.

She's actually very capable but due to the false start has no confidence in herself or her ability. I'm strogly against taking learners into situation they're not ready for. As has already been said it's dangerous and does nothing for their confidence!

#7 19-03-04 17:02:40

pageant
Guest

Re: Why CPD

WELL IT WORKS FOR ME AND THATS ALL THAT MATTERS. IVE ENOUGH EXPERIENCE TO KNOW IF ITS GOOD PRACTICE THANKYOU.

#8 19-03-04 17:35:41

DAVE-ADI
Guest

Re: Why CPD

Dual controls are for the instructor to take control if the pupil is losing it.

It's the first time I've heard anyone admit to actually using the duals for driving the car with the pupil behind the wheel. 
If you think it's acceptable try it on your next checktest and see if the S.E. agrees.

#9 19-03-04 17:37:09

Liesa
Guest

Re: Why CPD

Well said Dave!

#10 19-03-04 17:42:29

DSE
Verified Member
From: North East England and Scotlan
Registered: 03-03-04
Posts: 113
Website

Re: Why CPD

My initial post was regarding the need for CPD and my empathy with the DSA in pushing it.  I think this just shows that there is without doubt a need for something. To actually think that this is 'good practice' is beyond me. As Dave has said, try this in on a check test and see what happens!

Much has been written over the years on the use and abuse of dual controls.  Using them in this way would certainly come under the heading of abuse. That is not why they are there.


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Register of Fleet Driver Trainers

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#11 19-03-04 20:42:34

pageant
Guest

Re: Why CPD

Its the only time I use the duals thankyou. I do not do it with every pupil. I assess their suitability based on a steering procedure I assess them with during the first hour of the first lesson. I have not carried out the procedure if I do not assess them capable. This happens to be the minority of cases. I do know what safety is you know. Before you claim a procedure to be wrong out of hand you first need to know the methods and ability of the instructor involved, which in this case you do not. Dismissing this method of 'teaching' out of hand is pure nonsense. I've done it and I obviously get results from it. And if you feel that with all your pupils this is dangerous practice then you're probably one of those instructors I see just sitting there for the first hour talking whilst i've done enough instruction to warrant consideration of the procedure. You can come up with all the lists you like. It doesn't make your opinion (or those that agree with you) 100% valid. You make excellent points in your posts but on this issue, based on my instructional techniques, you're just wrong.

#12 19-03-04 20:48:19

pageant
Guest

Re: Why CPD

Oh and I've just checked my last check test. Use of duals-6.


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#13 19-03-04 21:06:46

Bob_FOADS
Guest

Re: Why CPD

Careful people,
Please don't let any of the threads turn into a slanging match. It dosen't help the site and don't forget that learners are here reading this too.

Before going off on one just pretend you in a lesson with a pupil, stay calm and give a reasond well argued responce.

My 2p worth, use of the duals to control the car in certin conditions is what the're for. I drove a pupil the other day on the duals BUT it was because they started to panick when a school kicked out. Got them pased the scholl and beforethey knew it (literaly) they were in control again.

All depends on circumstances.

#14 21-03-04 07:37:23

DSE
Verified Member
From: North East England and Scotlan
Registered: 03-03-04
Posts: 113
Website

Re: Why CPD

Bob

We are not talking about using the dual controls in situations such as you mention - of course this is what they are for.  The topic arose regarding the use of controls on an initial lesson as a means of allowing the pupil to "drive" the car home so that they can gain experience of sitting behind the wheel, even though they are not capable of controling the vehicle.

This is nothing like the situation you have mentioned. It is pre-planned and as Liasa has pointed out, it can be very damaging to the pupil's confidence. On top of this it is very dangerous and quite possibly borders on becoming illegal. I would not like to be the person defending the learner in court on a charge of failing to be in proper control of the vehicle.

This is not a slanging match as you put it. It is a debate on the rights or wrongs of a practice that is happening. I am open to hear both sides of the argument and willing to listen to any views that differ from mine as well as those that agree with mine. It is not a pesonal attack on anybody. Therefore your advice on remaining calm is appreciated but not necessary.


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Register of Fleet Driver Trainers

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by highly qualified grade 6 ADIs.
See website or email for details of our services.

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#15 21-03-04 08:17:27

Liesa
Guest

Re: Why CPD

Hi DSE

At present I'm actually teaching several individuals, that have been unfortunate enough to have had lessons, with someone who thinks this kind of practise is acceptable.

All of them have been serverly affected by this and have very little confidence.

I have asked one of them, to come and join in the debate, so that a learners point can also be put across!

#16 21-03-04 09:29:49

Midge
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 414
Website

Re: Why CPD

I admit that I am furtunate, living on the "right side of town" i.e. fairly close to a perfect nursery route.  I also don't have to accept pupils who live to far from me. I find that if the pupil wants to, and I think they are capable, most of my pupils can drive home on the first lesson.  It certainly does NOT destroy their confidence, it gives them more.  I often have a pupil who tells me that one of their friends spent most of the first lesson listening to the instructor,  and I have gained a lot of pupils because of this.  I have been an instructor for more than twenty years, and I haven't lost a pupil yet through allowing them to drive home if it is possible, it really depends where they live.
In this job, I  think you can rarely  say "never" or "always"   smile


Midge  -   Dip D.I.

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#17 21-03-04 10:38:46

nicebutdim
Member
From: Blackheath, London SE3
Registered: 27-02-04
Posts: 39
Website

Re: Why CPD

I must express some sympathy with pageant here.  I do feel that DSE's "this is not the way that it should be done full stop" attitude comes across as being a tad pompous.  Generally speaking, I only use the duals as a last resort measure and would normally never let a pupil drive back (in south east London) on their first lesson.  HOWEVER, we all need to be flexible in our approach and adapt the lesson to the skills and need of the pupil, so that if the pupil shows exceptional aptitude and the route back is more or less nursery slope, then in order to maintain interest, why not let them drive, even it means a little bit of dual control input.  I had one pupil who lived and breathed cars and although he had no road experience, had a natural flair, so I let him drive back home on his 17th birthday via the A2 and through 2 big roundabouts, which he did under full instruction plus only the occasional "trim" of the s/w from me.

If pageant, as a fully qualified professional, identifies that driving back on the first lesson would be more beneficial than detrimental to the pupil then his / her(?) judgement should not be questioned.


D.S.A. = Department of Silly Ar*es

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#18 21-03-04 12:04:49

Badger
Guest

Re: Why CPD

Apart from the TIR where I used the pedals once so that the pupil could concentrate on steering which she was finding difficult and which sorted the problem I have never used the controls other than to avoid a disaster or to demonstrate something.

What would worry me is the difficulty in coordinating the gas and the clutch and the possible confusion that it might generate for the pupil.

But obviously it works or pageant wouldnt have told us about it !

Badger

#19 21-03-04 16:04:52

Liesa
Guest

Re: Why CPD

Now that everyone seems to have calmed down a little, can I ask a question?

To those of you who use the dual controls in this way, do you make your pupils fully aware of what you're doing?

I don't mean to sound patronising but, the individuals I teach, who have been subjected to this practise, seem to be totally unaware that, the instructor was using the controls!

#20 21-03-04 22:07:51

Midge
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 414
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Re: Why CPD

Of course I tell the pupil if I have had to help out, otherwise they would think they are better than they are.  I've had pupils from other instructors who "help out " for to long and don't let their pupils know.  It is difficult to convince them that most cars have a clutch you have to be a bit careful with.


Midge  -   Dip D.I.

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#21 21-03-04 23:28:25

Badger
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Re: Why CPD

You must tell the pupil immediately that you have used the dual controls and why and how to avoid having to use them for that situation again.

I tell my pupils that if I have said nothing then I have not used them.

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#22 15-01-07 13:05:32

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,697
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Re: Why CPD

I wonder if some ADI's confuse "save the situation with dual controls" with "let them steer while I do pedals".

My 2p worth, use of the duals to control the car in certain conditions is what they're for. I drove a pupil the other day on the duals BUT it was because they started to panic when a school kicked out. Got them pased the scholl and before they knew it (literaly) they were in control again.All depends on circumstances.

Thanks Bob.

The duals have a dual purpose (no pun intended) - i.e. to ensure, as much as possible, the safety of the car with its occupants (and other road users of course), and also as a teaching aid. Use the "teaching aid" bit with caution.

I occasionally have the student steer while I control the speed with duals but never on the road, only in a car park to correct steering problems, this is at very low speed while the student practices pull-push steering, usually around poles. I keep the pressure off them as much as possible while they get to grips with steering techniques. After a while I get them to take over the pedals too.
It's done in the sanctuary of a big empty carpark or similar, not on the road. If traffic is too big a problem to the new driver, especially on the first 2 lessons, the answer is simple - drive them home and let them relax. They are not supposed to be accomplished drivers at this stage. If you feel the need to teach on the way home, do a commentary drive.


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
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#23 15-01-07 14:13:26

Target
Verified Member
From: Winchmore Hill North London
Registered: 17-01-05
Posts: 5,695
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Re: Why CPD

DSE.................

I'll not pick bones in your list of problems. We all know theres problems out there and we see it each and everyday for some they seem to have highlighted one and moved anyway from the point of the thread.

As you say....The people on this forum and those going to meetings are likely to be the ones moving their businesses forward along with CPD.

I believe the DSA once said at a meeting they only get to see around 3000 adis each year ( at meetings ) because the same people goto all of them. Which is probably quite true.

I've even spoken to Adi's who have said. Email alerts? What are they?. Does not mean they are poor Adis, but at the time they were slagging the DSA off for not telling them something, which I pointed out was sent via email or is clear to see on the website.

CPD.........Cannot come soon enough. It will not effect me, because I'm already planning to improve my lot, but some could do with a serious kick up the arse starting with part 1/2/3 all over again.


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#24 15-01-07 14:40:32

captainhook
Verified Member
Registered: 12-06-06
Posts: 2,197
Website

Re: Why CPD

The point is pageant-you say you judge their abilities in the first hour-this is fine-but if they are merely doing moving off and stopping they are not at a high enough ability to go anywhere but nursery routes. if you were saying new pupil first lesson judge them based on q and a and what they are like with junctions and clutch control then fine move them on and maybe up the anti a bit by taking them out on roads home incorporating r bouts and complec x roads with lights and stuff because they have enough ability to deal with it. I would only let them drive home if i felt that the most I had to do was talk them through a few things. Then if the panicked at a junction for some reason use the duals to save the time waste to other motorists and the pupils nerves.

As for getting a 6 on your check test for duals-is easy to fool a se and do it correctly just for an hour.

Cpd is only ever any good if the instructor is doing it because he wants to not just because the dsa say so. if they have to do it to keeptheir badge then they will do so and more than likely revert to form once back on the road.

As driving Instructors we have to have an open mind and possibly occasionaly admit we were not quite correct in our teaching and adapt.

My first franchise. Boss told me whilst on a pink dont go through all thats blarny just get them on the move and see how they do. Contradicted me left right and centre. Trained himself about 15 years ago and didnt even know what lada   or pom was.


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#25 15-01-07 14:43:18

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Why CPD

You've picked this one up from the graveyard haven't you zipper!

Valid points though, and useful for PDI's, I'm yet to meet a trainee who has been taught proper use of the duals.

After a quick flick through I haven't found mention of the fact that using the dual clutch in an emergency can crush your customer's toes! Just something to watch out for.

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