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#51 06-12-04 15:58:16

dashdriving.com
Member
From: Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Hu
Registered: 29-11-04
Posts: 148
Website

Re: advanced driving

TDC,

First things first... having re read my last posting I can see why you got a bit angry. You have every right to tell me that you drive well and I should not have generalised like that. For that I appologise. Also, my end comment was meant for every ADI who says that only ADI's should teach advanced driving. A discussion forum like this is open to all, if I wanted to have a go at you personally (which I don't) I would PM you.

However, I make no appologies at all for stating why I find ADI's bleating on about how good they are and that ADI's alone should teach advanced driving so annoying . . . I know an awful lot of ADI's and I have trained an awful lot of ADI's.

I have no intention whatsoever of defending the Police when they get it wrong. But, the ones I've seen myself and have actually been out with make most ADI's look extremely poor. Whatever the Police did to you on your lesson is down to them. I don't know who they were or what they were doing, but you quite clearly wished to generalise or you would'nt have told this particular story. One does it, so they all must etc etc... if you did'nt mean to generalise, then why did you tell us the story? Hence my last reply and the reason for my generalisation.

Yes, you are absolutely correct, it's great to have differing opinions.

My opinion is that any ADI who has taken no additional training apart from part two should be prosecuted under the trades description act if they offer to teach Advanced Driving. It's a shame that this can't  happen.

I think it's scarey that ADI's take and pass a test that is nothing more than a learner test and then never have to take another test again. No wonder the DSA are pushing for CPD and improvements all round. What a big surprise that thousands upon thousands of ADI's have sent in protests to the DSA and instructor associations about having to take the HPt etc. I firmly believe that we should be re tested at regular intervals.

My own experiences are far removed from yours. I have trained two Police Class One drivers to be ADI's. That's how I came to go out on a course with them. Both of them breezed it without breaking into a sweat. One of them is now helping me to re train an ADI for the Rospa test. However, my concern is not with the Police or Police drivers. My opinion remains unchanged at this time... they are far better than any ADI I've ever seen. My purpose in posting to this forum is to give my opinion on ADI's talking about Advanced Driving, a subject which not many ADI's seem to know much about by reading the postings on here. Part two is not an 'Advanced Test'. Yes, I know that the DSA go on about it being "not just a learner test etc etc drone drone drone it's of an advanced nature blah blah blah...."  but for god's sake, all we do is the learner syllabus with a few less faults allowed and then we never have to do it again!!!!!
Absolutely and utterly pathetic.

Whatever any of us say and no matter what our opinions are, there is one thing in common with Police Drivers, ADI's and Learners . . . they are all human beings.
Some Police drivers are poor, but the good ones are better than any ADI.
Some ADI's are poor, but the best ones can teach a learner like no Police Driver could ever hope to.
I've never heard an IAM or ROSPA member say that they could teach a learner and that all learner driver training should be controled by them.
I simply find it amazing that any ADI could even dream of saying that all advanced driving should be controled by the DSA.

Dave Hartley DSA ADI (car)


Dave Hartley
ADI Trainer for Dash driving

www.dashdriving.com

you never do anything wrong,
you just find new ways of not doing it right.

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06-12-04 15:58:16

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Re: advanced driving



#52 06-12-04 17:04:21

Sharron H
Guest

Re: advanced driving

Phew!! Kinda seems to me like a lot of egos going on here, having read all the entries!!

Just an opinion, but .......
I believe that anyone who teaches advance driving needs to accept that they require the appropriate training to do so - just as we ADI's needed training to teach learners, IAM observers receive training to observe, etc etc ......

I don't think that the DSA should own advance driving tuition or training.  Remember, the DSA don't teach ADI's - ADI's teach ADI's.

Learning doesn't stop just because you've got a qualification.

#53 06-12-04 17:40:55

Anonymous
Guest

Re: advanced driving

are you shure that you are a adi mr hartley some things dont add up . why do you asume that adis want advanced all to themselfs. why do you asume just because you have trained a couple of class one drivers that it gives you some orthourtiy on the subject. also any adi can advertise and present advanced driving legaly where as iam and rospa are bordring on breaking the law. if these police drivers are as good as you say then becoming a adi will be no problem and they can teach advanced driving for reward for as long as they want to.so why all this nonsense if any one is so serous about driving training then why dont they put the money were thier mouths are and become adis that way it will be all above board.


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#54 06-12-04 17:52:42

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: advanced driving

lee wrote:

are you shure that you are a adi mr hartley some things dont add up . why do you asume that adis want advanced all to themselfs. why do you asume just because you have trained a couple of class one drivers that it gives you some orthourtiy on the subject. also any adi can advertise and present advanced driving legaly where as iam and rospa are bordring on breaking the law. if these police drivers are as good as you say then becoming a adi will be no problem and they can teach advanced driving for reward for as long as they want to.so why all this nonsense if any one is so serous about driving training then why dont they put the money were thier mouths are and become adis that way it will be all above board.

Yes dave is an Adi and a blasted good one,

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#55 06-12-04 18:10:07

dashdriving.com
Member
From: Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Hu
Registered: 29-11-04
Posts: 148
Website

Re: advanced driving

Lee,

I asume it because you seem to want all Advanced Driving to be controled by one authority - the DSA. There are a few ADI's who have given the impression that only ADI's should be able to teach it. My opinion is exactly as I have stated. ADI's are absolutely no authority on Advanced Driving unless they have the appropriate training.

What things don't add up, Lee? Could it be that I disagree with you??

Yes, Lee, I am an ADI. Not a PDI. And yes, I have trained other ADI's.

The whole point of this discussion thread revolved around Advanced Driving "coming under one roof". I will reiterate my stance.... that I believe it is complete nonesense.

Where did I say I was an authority??? I have been with the Police on an Advanced Course and I have seen them drive to remarkably high standards. If any of them want to become ADI's instead of Police Officers, thats down to them. If they want to spend hours teaching learners like we do then they must be mad. They want to be coppers, we want to be ADI's...The two I trained were coming up to retirement and wanted to carry on working. Good luck to them, thats their choice.

The IAM and ROSPA are nowhere near to breaking the law. The observers don't charge or get paid. They could quite ligitimately call themselves instructors. No money or moneys worth = no criminal offence.

Anyway, why the fascination with Police Drivers? They just do something different to ADI's, just like Rospa and the IAM. The only reason I mention them is because someone else had a go at them on here or one of the other threads. I think theres someone called Stephen who people seem to have a go at.

Yes, you are right. ADI's can advertise advanced courses. I have stated quite clearly that my opinion is that any ADI who does this without extra training should be done under the trades descriptions act. I really do feel that it's a shame that they are allowed to get away with it.

At the same time, ADI's who go on to be IAM observers and Rospa members etc and help the public to become better and safer drivers should be wholeheartedly applauded. These ADI's have clearly decided that there is more to life than our beloved DSA. There is far far more to learn than mirror, signal, maneouver.

I make absolutely no appologies for stating my belief that passing the learner driving test with a few less minors, never having to do a driving test again and then claiming to be able to teach Advanced Driving is outrageous.

Dave H


Dave Hartley
ADI Trainer for Dash driving

www.dashdriving.com

you never do anything wrong,
you just find new ways of not doing it right.

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#56 06-12-04 21:58:28

Anonymous
Guest

Re: advanced driving

there is nothing outragous about professionals doing advanced training and dont iam and rospa charge a fee .what is so wrong with having it under one roof? it makes a lot of sence to me. i think iam and rospa are feeling threatened by the adi and dsa. thier are many ex police who are adis and thier are extra driving test for adis to take ie diamond and cardington test if we want to specialise then we can as to the pathetic claim that adis advertising advanced driving is in breach of trade discriptions well thats just plain slandours. you should be carefull what you say we are a professional oganisation iam and rospa are not.

#57 06-12-04 22:33:27

dashdriving.com
Member
From: Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Hu
Registered: 29-11-04
Posts: 148
Website

Re: advanced driving

Lee,

The IAM and Rospa have nothing to fear from ADI's. Many ADI's join those two organisations, learn an awful lot and have an awful lot to give back in return.
Both gain a great deal and we all learn in the process. They gain from our skills
as ADI's and we can learn something about their system of driving.

The DIAmond test is the learner driving test with less faults. The DIAmond special test is the learner test with a few less faults than the normal DIAmond test. They are both based on the DSA driving test which is the test taken by learners. The DSA's own Cardington test is based on the learner test and faults are marked in the same way. Do correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that both the DIA tests are actually overseen by the DSA to ensure standards.

ADI's are legally entitled to advertise that they can teach advanced driving and charge people for advanced driving instruction. I am absolutely entitled to my opinion on that as well as you. You know what my opinion is. I will repeat it for you, just in case....
I think it is absolutely crazy that a PDI can pass part two on the way to becoming an ADI, never have to take a test again, ever, and then advertise to teach advanced driving to the general public. To me its just absurd.

I consider myself to be a very good driver. I've had two ADI's through part two recently and both passed well. But the test they passed is the learner test with less faults. All they did was pass the learner test and make a few less errors. Don't get me wrong, I've said previously that ADI's are extremely skilled people who train very hard to get through. I am one and I know how hard I worked. Our standard of driving is very high, but I cannot put my hand on my heart and say that I am an 'advanced' driver, just because I past part two.

Have you contacted the IAM group or Rospa and done their test? There really is a lot to learn and you can gain loads of experience from it.


Dave Hartley
ADI Trainer for Dash driving

www.dashdriving.com

you never do anything wrong,
you just find new ways of not doing it right.

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#58 07-12-04 03:04:58

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: advanced driving

TDC,
        The three unmarked police vehicles that overtook you were probably on either standard or advanced driving courses,you say they overtook youin a 30mph at over 50mph well let me tell you this that wouldn't have been the case,as they stick to speed limits ridgidlywhilstin built up area's ie 30mph,40, 50,the only time they exceed the speed limit on training is in National and Motorway's. You also say that you saw them gettingout of their cars at the station that's how you know they where police,well all i can say is that you must have followed them at the same speed to have been there when they got out. As Dashdriving said do not generalise as all of us being the same as I practise what I preach and am professional with it as if i had to say that all ADI's were w****r's then it would not be true and i would be out of order. ADI's at basic level are only authorised to teach learners like it or lump it.
                                                    Stephen

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#59 07-12-04 09:08:33

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: advanced driving

Stephen7738 wrote:

TDC,
        The three unmarked police vehicles that overtook you were probably on either standard or advanced driving courses,you say they overtook youin a 30mph at over 50mph well let me tell you this that wouldn't have been the case,as they stick to speed limits ridgidlywhilstin built up area's ie 30mph,40, 50,the only time they exceed the speed limit on training is in National and Motorway's.                                                     Stephen


o i see saying that im lying now are you???? of course the police could never do anything wrong could they.
Think you may live in a bit of a blinkered world if you really believe the police wouldnt do over 30 mph in a 30 zone.  Maybe thats how they are trained but its not how they always drive, ok maybe generalising but theres been so many instances of it that i think i have a right to.
I not too bothered about what speed they were doing really its the fact that the last one that overtook us had to cut in early to avoid head on and forced us to brake more than we already were, now as i said if they were being trained then i trust that would be worked on as we get enough of that form 'normal' motorists and dont expect it from the police really.

As for seeing them getting out of the cars the police station was less then 1/2 mile  away so it was quite easy to see them without us speeding thankyou.


Im so good its unbelievable

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#60 07-12-04 15:56:49

Anonymous
Guest

Re: advanced driving

part 2 is not a L test how many times are you going to deny this simple fact .and i dont deny that iam or rospa have anything to offer lets face it advanced driving is fairly easy compared to teaching learners . sorry iam and rospa is very easy to do and not that demanding for observers


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#61 07-12-04 16:10:55

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: advanced driving

lee wrote:

part 2 is not a L test how many times are you going to deny this simple fact .and i dont deny that iam or rospa have anything to offer lets face it advanced driving is fairly easy compared to teaching learners . sorry iam and rospa is very easy to do and not that demanding for observers

Lee all you want to do is cause arguments,Are you an Observer for the IAM ? have you taken the IAM Observer course? You must feel very thretened by the thought that the IAM will not be goverened by the DSA.

It is very demanding for the Observers and untill you actually do it yourself you cannot possibly know anything about it,so please don't make assumptions like this.

You are not the be-all and end all of the driving industry just because you are an ADI.
I know some very good Adi's and I also know some bad ones,just like there are some good Observers there are some bad ones as well.

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#62 07-12-04 16:59:58

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,596

Re: advanced driving

Definitely a case of inflated egos here eh lee? must be all that testosterone  lol  lol
Why make a mountain out of a molehill? Its all horses for courses, and in order for anyone to obtain a driving licence they need to pass the DSA test to get one.  Once a person has a little experience they may wish gain more by discovering what their options are through various organizations. Everyone is different, and we all have different needs, and as such,  we have choices. There are some people who actually enjoy driving and want to challenge their skills,  lets face it, the world would be VERY boring if the DSA was responsible for just one style of driving. Apart from the fact they need to get their own house in order before attempting anything as massive as the proposed CPD.  Variety IS the spice of life, the DSA is not the be all and end all.
VandADI.

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#63 07-12-04 22:52:52

Graham
Guest

Re: advanced driving

Having read the recent postings by Lee, I have come to an interesting conclusion. I think that Lee is an invention of the message board Administrators. He comes in, drops a contentious issue, revisits to add a few negative comments and then sits back and falls about laughing at our attempts to reason with the subject he raised. If you're reading this Lee, thank you. Without people like you message boards would be very dull.........keep up the good work. Seriously, the initial thread he posted has caused a lot of varied opinions to be aired. Isn't that a good thing........??

#64 09-12-04 20:33:08

Eddie
Guest

Re: advanced driving

If any of you good people in Britain think you have problems over what is and what isn't "advanced driving" all I can say is don't emigrate to the USA.... the opinions over here are enough to make any safety-oriented person tear their hair out in clumps!

The standard idea -- indeed the ONLY idea, apart from one English, RoSPA Gold guy I know, who teaches in California -- is that advanced driving requires only two things:  the racing line through corners (yes, on public roads!) and skid-pan training.

The USA has a per capita death rate 2½ times worse than the four, traditional leading countries (Britain, Sweden, the Netherlands, and Norway) and in some places here it is possible to pass the driving test without ever driving off the car parking area at the testing centre..... I kid you not!

So smile and look on the bright side. Britain actually does have one of the best learner systems in the world and arguably THE best advanced driving system in the world. And the former is undoubtedly one of the reasons that Britain has easily come top more times than any other country in the last 15 years, for being the nation with the lowest per capita road-death rates in the world.

Eddie

#65 09-12-04 20:38:14

Anonymous
Guest

Re: advanced driving

well britain does lead the way for every one to follow

#66 10-12-04 04:12:44

Eddie
Guest

Re: advanced driving

Unfortunately not in many things it doesn't, Lee. Those days are largely gone, no matter how much we might rue that fact.

But at least we DO hold the primary lead in road safety. Only Sweden comes close over the last few years, and the Netherlands is gaining ground fast.

Eddie

#67 10-12-04 22:30:10

Anonymous
Guest

Re: advanced driving

is there any jobs going in the usa for the likes of me


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#68 11-12-04 02:17:30

Eddie
Guest

Re: advanced driving

If you mean any jobs as a driving instructor, I'm afraid that in the short term the answer is no.

That's because [a] you would first have to become either a legal resident or an American citizen (because only by doing one of those things could you obtain a U.S. driving licence), and [b] you would have to hold an American driving licence for a minimum of two years before you would be allowed, by law, to become a driving instructor.

Eddie

#69 11-12-04 13:54:20

Anonymous
Guest

Re: advanced driving

unlike brittain any one can drive here for twelve months


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#70 18-12-04 11:27:04

DAVE-ADI
Guest

Re: advanced driving

You must feel very thretened by the thought that the IAM will not be goverened by the DSA.

Giz,

You should read the new Road Safety Bill.    It gives DSA the power to govern ALL aspects of  driver training, and that includes advanced.     
IAM  certainly are going to come under the control of DSA.

#71 18-12-04 12:23:35

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: advanced driving

Dave untill they tell me otherwise then were not,and that's what I have said.

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#72 18-12-04 20:41:04

jimbo
Guest

Re: advanced driving

You should read the new Road Safety Bill. It gives DSA the power to govern ALL aspects of driver training, and that includes advanced.
IAM certainly are going to come under the control of DSA.

  As we are not yet a police state i would think this highly unlikely - i must admit i don't know but the idea seems ridiculous


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#73 18-12-04 23:30:05

drivetime
Verified Member
From: North Kent
Registered: 01-03-04
Posts: 216
Website

Re: advanced driving

I dont know about certainly come under the DSA but i think it will be a close thing as to " If it does"

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#74 19-12-04 08:51:36

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: advanced driving

dashdriving.com wrote:

....
Here's a limited view for you . . . when i drive my training car I drive to part two standards. Always and without exception. If I'm driving a student about I make a very good imression. I do not know another single ADI who does this. Please don't bother to tell me that you do, because unless I can see you do it it's pointless. ....

So exactly the same applies the other way around.  You SAY that you drive to ADI part 2 standards when driving your school car.  Don't bother to tell us that because unless we see you it is pointless!

Actually, I don't drive to part 2 standards when in my school car, I drive to as high a standard as I have been taught (RoADA Gold).  I try to drive to the best of my abilities at all times, doesn't always work out , like most people I will make mistakes.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#75 24-12-04 18:36:55

jk
Guest

Re: advanced driving

Lees original post=should ADIs teach advanced driving? does that mean that I, an ADI can teach/observe advanced driving although I know nothing about it?

Is there anything to stop an ADI becoming an IAM observer and how would he/she go about it?

An IAM observer is currently paying me to teach his wife to drive so maybe he appreciates the difference between teaching someone from scratch and adding to the skills of someone who already can drive.

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