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#26 13-11-04 20:54:09

crr003
Guest

Re: advanced driving

lee wrote:

how can telling some one to go on the wrong side of the road to get a better view of the road. thats what you call road safety

Did an observer in the IAM tell you to go on "the wrong side of the road"?

If so, that's wrong.  On a left hand bend, with good visibility through the bend, we are advised to take a line closer to the centre line entering the bend than DSA recommendations.  By getting the line right you increase the radius of the bend and hence increase stability.  We're also told that "excessive positioning" could confuse following vehicles, so if you're following an IAM driver (if he/she is displaying a badge), don't expect to see this positioning all the time!

Roger
IAM & RoADA

13-11-04 20:54:09

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Re: advanced driving



#27 13-11-04 20:56:37

Anonymous
Guest

Re: advanced driving

why do you need extra stabilty when going through bends ? unless you are driving to fast

#28 13-11-04 20:57:52

Anonymous
Guest

Re: advanced driving

why dont ian and rospa base thier driving on the dsa method?


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#29 13-11-04 21:16:42

crr003
Guest

Re: advanced driving

lee wrote:

why do you need extra stabilty when going through bends ? unless you are driving to fast

stability is good!

"driving too fast"?  If I can take an NSL single carriageway bend maintaining progress up to the legal limit, that's what I'll do.  If you're a passenger the improved line will mean you don't feel like you're getting  thrown around - IAM call it passenger sympathy.  And the use of a suitable speed is called making progress.

There could be another argument that says if you hit a patch of oil/diesel/ice, the extra stability will mean the effects of the oil/diesel/ice will be minimised or you'll have a slightly better chance of correcting for the problem.

I'm interested to know - how do you teach learners to get round bends?  I know you're supposed to position to the left for RH bends and maintain a central poisition in your lane for LH bends, but how do you teach them what speed to carry into the bend?

Roger


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#30 13-11-04 21:26:29

crr003
Guest

Re: advanced driving

lee wrote:

why dont ian and rospa base thier driving on the dsa method?

This one I can't answer.

As you know, IAM and RoSPA base their tests on Roadcraft.

To be honest, (I've posted this before somewhere), for me, the only substantial differences are:
1.  Positioning for LH bends
2.  More signalling for DSA (although by anyone's book this is debatable)
3.  IAM/RoSPA sometimes advocate straightening out your line through a roundabout

I was really surprised when I recently read "Driving the essential skills".  The book says to block gearchange and not to use gears to slow down (normal conditions).  This to me is getting more in line with Roadcraft.

Probably the "worst" habit a person has coming to IAM/RoSPA is changing down through the box coming up to red lights.  When did DSA change this?  I seem to remember being taught to change down sequentially, but that was a while ago  wink


Roger

#31 13-11-04 21:30:07

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,962

Re: advanced driving

I would like to know WHY this has been posted on the Driving instructors board when it is an Advanced Driving discussion?

Online


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#32 13-11-04 21:33:35

crr003
Guest

Re: advanced driving

Gizmotime wrote:

I would like to know WHY this has been posted on the Driving instructors board when it is an Advanced Driving discussion?

I guess because Lee started it off with a question to ADIs?

It's got a bit off topic now (but hopefully still interesting!)

Roger


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#33 13-11-04 22:36:24

DAVE-ADI
Guest

Re: advanced driving

I would like to know WHY this has been posted on the Driving instructors board when it is an Advanced Driving discussion?

I think it's because non ADIs who teach advanced driving  are reading the  ADI section's posts

#34 13-11-04 23:08:38

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,962

Re: advanced driving

Well I have moved it to Advanced Driving now as this is mainly what it's got onto.

Online


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#35 13-11-04 23:12:13

crr003
Guest

Re: advanced driving

DAVE-ADI wrote:

I would like to know WHY this has been posted on the Driving instructors board when it is an Advanced Driving discussion?

I think it's because non ADIs who teach advanced driving  are reading the  ADI section's posts

Sorry - I saw the Advanced Driving title and was interested.

But that doesn't really explain why it was posted here by Lee, unless my reply was correct?

Roger
(ADI wanabee)

#36 27-11-04 14:04:55

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: advanced driving

who really needs to do advanced driving? Most of it is common sense, Ive been driving some 17 years and do most of what is said on here anyway just thru natural prgression and experience. ie straighten out bends when its 100% safe to do so , postion car safely for maximum views on bends , hazards etc
Sorry but i dont need any organisation to tell me how to drive better


Im so good its unbelievable

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#37 27-11-04 23:15:01

jgarbutt
Verified Member
From: Driving Instructor in Horsham,
Registered: 26-04-04
Posts: 380
Website

Re: advanced driving

crr003 wrote:

. . . I'm interested to know - how do you teach learners to get round bends?  I know you're supposed to position to the left for RH bends and maintain a central poisition in your lane for LH bends, but how do you teach them what speed to carry into the bend?

Roger

Roger, I teach them to use the limit-point (the furthest point they can see, where the 2 sides of the road appear to converge), and to be sure that they can always stop within this distance - if the limit-point approaches them too much or too quickly they need to slow down, and as the limit-point moves away from them they can speed-up.

Most experienced learners seem to grasp this concept, they enjoy the ability it gives them, and hopefully ensures that they never take a bend too quickly.

As for positioning, further left on RH bands and slightly right of centre for LH bands ensuring a good distance is kept from the centre line.


Jason Garbutt
DSA Approved Driving Instructor
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[color=blue]      Driving lessons throughout Sussex
Tel. 01403 251662 - www.GreatDriver.co.uk

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#38 28-11-04 08:06:06

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: advanced driving

jgarbutt wrote:

Roger, I teach them to use the limit-point ...

Yep this is what I teach too.

Lynne  big_smile

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#39 28-11-04 18:36:16

crr003
Guest

Re: advanced driving

jgarbutt wrote:
crr003 wrote:

. . . I'm interested to know - how do you teach learners to get round bends?  I know you're supposed to position to the left for RH bends and maintain a central poisition in your lane for LH bends, but how do you teach them what speed to carry into the bend?

Roger

Roger, I teach them to use the limit-point .........

Thanks for the reply.

I was interested as "Driving  - the essential skills" seems a bit wooly on this.

Roger


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#40 04-12-04 23:25:34

dashdriving.com
Member
From: Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Hu
Registered: 29-11-04
Posts: 148
Website

Re: advanced driving

Lee,

Have you been out on a Police Advanced driving course as an observer for the day?

If not, do yourself a favour and ring them and see if it can be arranged, they are usually very open and helpfull to ADI's. If you keep an open mind you'll be absolutely amazed and you'll learn an awfull lot.

Of all the ADI's I know (lot's, believe me) I don't know of a single one who could even hope to emulate the skills that these people have. I'm not just talking about thrashing around the countryside at a ton plus, I mean even in the 30mph limits. If you get the chance to be there in the back seat, listening to a class one commentary, you would simply not believe it. They see things and plan for things that an ADI may never even notice.

I'm an ADI, but I have to say that many IAM drivers are better advanced drivers than some of the ADI's. As an ADI we have to pass a test to DSA learner standard, just getting a few less errors. The joke for me is that once we've passed part two most ADI's just sit back and learn nothing more because we never have to do a driving test aain. Ridiculous.  I firmly believe that ADI's should have to re take a part two standard driving test at least bi-anually.

I'm sure that a lot of confusion is caused by the terminology. Some people say that the DSA's MS-PSL routine is better than Roadcraft and some say the opposite. But Roadcraft is not just a routine (Information, position, speed, gear, acceleration) of car control. It's so much more than that. It's about observation and observation linking to a standard that no ADI I know of (without extra training) could achieve. It's about seeing far more and far further, it's about complete empathy with the car and what it can do, it's about smooth unobtrusive progress applying the 'routine' at any and all hazards in a very planned and yet highly flexible way. The book 'Roadcraft' is for public sale and is a very watered down version of true Roadcraft. Still, there's far better advice in it than there is in 'The Essential skills'

Do yourself a huge favour. Go out on and advanced course.

Dave H.


Dave Hartley
ADI Trainer for Dash driving

www.dashdriving.com

you never do anything wrong,
you just find new ways of not doing it right.

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#41 05-12-04 18:44:04

Anonymous
Guest

Re: advanced driving

ive all ready done that. why are you trying to compare police with adis the two are diffrent. adis also do running commenrary end of the day driving is driving dosent matter how you look at it ive seen these so called police instructors in action all they seem to do is show off and have big egos. to me that is not good qualitys for teaching.you should be of a careing nature and have the abilty to see people as people and not as labels if you know what i mean. these are rare qualitys to find in some one

#42 05-12-04 19:38:31

dashdriving.com
Member
From: Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Hu
Registered: 29-11-04
Posts: 148
Website

Re: advanced driving

I'm not trying to compare the Police with ADI's... there is no comparison. You made the statement that all Advanced Driving should be under the 'spell' of the DSA and I simply wanted to put forward another viewpoint.

I'm sure that most Police Drivers would not be able to teach a learner driver up to test standard like you or I can, but at the same time you or I could'nt drive anywhere near as well as they could. My point is that saying that only ADI's can teach Advanced Driving is crazy. As I've said, part two is the learner test with only six faults. TheDIAmond test is exactly the same as the part two test (I believe it says that it's based on the DSA test with only 6 faults allowed) and even the DIAmond special test is absolutely nothing at all but a learner test with only two faults allowed (same as the Cardington test)

I have trained quite a few ADI's through part two and part three, but all we teach ADI's for the part two test is the learner syllabus. They don't need to do anything else.
Advanced Driving is not and never will be the DSA syllabus.... it is much, much more than that.

I am not knocking ADI's. I am one and I work hard and no Police Driver can teach a learner like me. However, I feel we need to be careful about overestimating our abilities as drivers. We are good, but there are many who are better.

Dave H


Dave Hartley
ADI Trainer for Dash driving

www.dashdriving.com

you never do anything wrong,
you just find new ways of not doing it right.

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#43 05-12-04 22:12:43

Anonymous
Guest

Re: advanced driving

im sorry but you are very wrong to say part two is just a learner test ,have you passed your part two if, you have you will know the diffrence. would you have racing car drivers teaching advanced driving because thats the only diferance between adis and police instructors is that they teach high speed persuits.its not about driving fast or showing some one that you are the bees knees at driving a car.

#44 05-12-04 22:30:14

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: advanced driving

Lee,
       To compare racing drivers and police driver's is totally wrong as they are two totally different styles,of driving,the most obvious one is safety,a racing driver goes round a track fast and does nothing but look in front of him he doesn't have to anticipate that something might pull out or turn across his path whilst driving fast,a police driver doe's,just the same a police driver might not be able to go round a track as fast as a racing driver,it's like chalk and cheese,just like post and pre driver training are so if you havent done it don't knock it. As for police class one driver's having big ego's then I havent dont know which one's you have seen but we are not all the same.
                             Stephen

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#45 05-12-04 22:35:22

Anonymous
Guest

Re: advanced driving

no you are right you are not all the same but you seem to imply that police are better at training drivers at advanced level why

#46 05-12-04 23:28:06

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: advanced driving

I don't know who or what you are refering to Lee can you give me an example of when the police have said they are the best at training driver's.
                                                                Stephen

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#47 06-12-04 06:29:45

dashdriving.com
Member
From: Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Hu
Registered: 29-11-04
Posts: 148
Website

Re: advanced driving

Lee,

Not only have I passed my part two test (how could I be an ADI without doing so?) but I've also trained a number of other ADI's through the part two.

ADI's like you and I are very highly trained people. I have no doubt whatsoever that a Police driver would not be able to drive to DSA standards as well as you or I could, and they certainly  would'nt be able to teach a learner like we could. But that's just the point. It's completely different and it needs completely different skills. I consider myself to be remarkably good at what I do. My pass rates for learners is well over double the national average and my pass rates for ADI's is slightly higher still. Yet I don't believe that I would have the right to say "all advanced driving should be taught by people like me, because we are the only ones who know anything about it". That's just not right. Horses for courses.

Dave H


Dave Hartley
ADI Trainer for Dash driving

www.dashdriving.com

you never do anything wrong,
you just find new ways of not doing it right.

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#48 06-12-04 09:00:56

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: advanced driving

dashdriving.com wrote:

. I'm not just talking about thrashing around the countryside at a ton plus, Dave H.

strange but i thought the national speed limit on these roads is 60 mph,  but clearly the police are great drivers for going 'at a ton plus'. More like abusing their positions.
On a recent lesson we came out of a country road into a more built up area, the limit was 30mph all the way yet three unmarked police cars were impatiently right up our arse and as overtook us at speeds above 50mph , the last one having to dive in at the last minute to get passed and in before oncoming traffic so forcing me and pupil to brake harshly to miss them............... advanced driving or complete w*nkers having fun and abusing their positions... no flashing lights (not even headlights) we didnt know they were old bill until we saw the cars in the police station a few minutes later and the uniforms getting out.
so who taught them to drive like that??? ADIS   i doubt it


Im so good its unbelievable

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#49 06-12-04 09:20:48

dashdriving.com
Member
From: Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Hu
Registered: 29-11-04
Posts: 148
Website

Re: advanced driving

Were they advanced drivers on a driving course? What were they doing? did you take the time to ask? Are your views so limited that you see something like this and assume every one of them is the same?

Here's a limited view for you . . . when i drive my training car I drive to part two standards. Always and without exception. If I'm driving a student about I make a very good imression. I do not know another single ADI who does this. Please don't bother to tell me that you do, because unless I can see you do it it's pointless. ADI's are constantly some of the worst drivers I've ever seen. I saw one being pulled by the old bill. He overtook me at about 50mph in a 40 zone with his big L sign on the roof. This was about two weeks before I passed my part three. A police T5 came past me as well. Massive thing. Blue lights, red stripes the lot. Impossible not to see, yet the ADI was so stupid as to speed without even checking themirrors. I don't know if he got done, but I suspect so.

Does this one incident mean that all ADI's are rubbish drivers? I'm not, so it can't. As an experienced ADI trainer, please don't even try to tell me that ADI's are the best drivers out there because your talking nonsense.


Dave Hartley
ADI Trainer for Dash driving

www.dashdriving.com

you never do anything wrong,
you just find new ways of not doing it right.

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#50 06-12-04 09:35:13

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: advanced driving

dashdriving.com wrote:

Were they advanced drivers on a driving course? What were they doing? did you take the time to ask? Are your views so limited that you see something like this and assume every one of them is the same?

well i didnt stop to ask as guess what.....i was on a lesson and my pupil was paying for it and i wasnt going to waste her time to have a chat with some coppers.
if they were on a course then they werent being trained very well as they cut my pupil up and forced us to brake unneccesarily which even un -advanced drivers shouldnt do

Here's a limited view for you . . . when i drive my training car I drive to part two standards. Always and without exception. If I'm driving a student about I make a very good imression. I do not know another single ADI who does this. Please don't bother to tell me that you do, because unless I can see you do it it's pointless.

yes your are right this is a very limited view!!!!!!! So you dont know many adis then huh??? its a bit rich to say that you make a good impression yet im not allowed to say the same thing because you cant see me... well i cant see you so im lucky  :twisted:


ADI's are constantly some of the worst drivers I've ever seen. I saw one being pulled by the old bill. He overtook me at about 50mph in a 40 zone with his big L sign on the roof. This was about two weeks before I passed my part three. A police T5 came past me as well. Massive thing. Blue lights, red stripes the lot. Impossible not to see, yet the ADI was so stupid as to speed without even checking themirrors. I don't know if he got done, but I suspect so.

Does this one incident mean that all ADI's are rubbish drivers? I'm not, so it can't. As an experienced ADI trainer, please don't even try to tell me that ADI's are the best drivers out there because your talking nonsense.

er your putting words into postings :!:  :!:  :!:   i never said adis were the best drivers and nor will I.
But from your previous posting you seem to think its 'advanced' to 'thrash around country roads at a ton plus' . If i did this id get nicked , if the police do it its advanced!!! flashing lights and sirens do not give them priority over all other road users .
still its good to have differing opinions else theres no point in having a forum  big_smile


Im so good its unbelievable

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