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#1 11-07-06 13:24:31

New Girl
Verified Member
From: Somerset
Registered: 25-07-05
Posts: 524

Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

Since I started trading last year I have been meaning to join the DIA or the ADI Federation.  I've just been looking at the DIA leaflet and the only thing I can see that I could benefit from being a member is the professional indemnity cover.  Do I need this cover? Would I be better off getting this independantly? Have any of you done this and can you recommend an insurance company?

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11-07-06 13:24:31

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Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?



#2 24-07-06 17:38:35

1stdrive
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Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

I would strongly reccommend that you have it, and Public Liability Insurance too.

There are several cases of examiners suing for injuries sustained on test, rightly or wrongly this could come down to you, and without insurance you could be in alot of trouble. This is just one eventuality, there are probably countless more.

The insurances are really the only reason I am a member of the DIA, although the magazines often have interesting articles, but the best thing to do is shop around and get some quotes.

#3 25-07-06 06:47:35

CarlatPUK
Verified Member
From: Worcestershire
Registered: 28-03-06
Posts: 323
Website

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

Same here we encourage all our instructors to join DIA mainly for the Public Liability nd Professional Indemnity insurance.

We re getting more and more `American` when it comes to suing.


PROGRESSIVE-UK Driver Development
Professional driver training by professional trainers
We also train driving instructors

Grade 6 (and worked for it)
RoSPA Diploma advanced driving instruction
Registered Fleet driver trainer
Cardington, IAM, DIA, blah, blah....

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#4 25-07-06 10:29:13

sparkle
Guest

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

Waveney insurance has tons of liabiltiy ins included :police:

#5 25-07-06 10:49:21

CarlatPUK
Verified Member
From: Worcestershire
Registered: 28-03-06
Posts: 323
Website

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

Good to hear it.
I guess it might help others if we knew what level of cover they offer and at what price.

DIA membership can be as little as £16.90 per quarter if paid by direct debit. There is a once only joining fee of £30
and includes • FREE Professional Indemnity to £3,000,000 • FREE Public Liability to £5,000,000


PROGRESSIVE-UK Driver Development
Professional driver training by professional trainers
We also train driving instructors

Grade 6 (and worked for it)
RoSPA Diploma advanced driving instruction
Registered Fleet driver trainer
Cardington, IAM, DIA, blah, blah....

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#6 25-07-06 11:23:01

sparkle
Guest

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

No probs big_smile



"Public Liability"

1. £20 Million cover for third party property damage and/or third party injuries.

2. Extended Public Liability - cover to meet the DSA's "show me - tell me" requirements. (Falling bonnet etc.)

3. Driving Instructor Liability - protects the ADI against injury claims made by pupils undergoing driving instruction who consider there is negligence on the part of an instructor following an accident.

My premium is irrelevant as im living in east london with a high risk postcode plus i have only 2 yrs no claims ..anyway waveney are cheaper than the rest...and are good on claims too (hire car within 12 hours to yikes)  as i found out this january--its NIG that are slightly less than useless lol


#7 25-07-06 11:33:34

CarlatPUK
Verified Member
From: Worcestershire
Registered: 28-03-06
Posts: 323
Website

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

Thanks Sparks, most of our instructors are with MBC, a couple are with Waveney.

anyone else with Waveney and had to use them? if so how did they perform?


PROGRESSIVE-UK Driver Development
Professional driver training by professional trainers
We also train driving instructors

Grade 6 (and worked for it)
RoSPA Diploma advanced driving instruction
Registered Fleet driver trainer
Cardington, IAM, DIA, blah, blah....

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#8 25-07-06 11:42:40

sparkle
Guest

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

Gotta hand it to Waveney for lots of counts really.

Both times i changed my cars actually make that 3 times..private number plate admin was done same day sent out..swapped over..sorted no hassle.

When you call for renewal or new call they are very very quick.. cover note is sent same day..'real' papers are sent few days after.

I had hit & run in january-NIG took the claim over..not too bad..just didnt like the customer service staff (but im very fussy as i was a service advisor myself years ago :evil:) anyway..accident was on Tuesday afternoon..hire car was with me the next morning same make & model big_smile  big_smile smashing.

As accident was a hit & run.this is now with MIB and awaitng the long haul ahead with this..i am pretty sure NIG would have been quiick if i had of had a 3rd party to claim from....just didnt like the service staff.bit rude..but i'll put up with that for fabby premiums big_smile big_smile

#9 25-07-06 11:47:19

CarlatPUK
Verified Member
From: Worcestershire
Registered: 28-03-06
Posts: 323
Website

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

Nice one Sparks, we will have to have a closer look at it for our guys,
Cheers


PROGRESSIVE-UK Driver Development
Professional driver training by professional trainers
We also train driving instructors

Grade 6 (and worked for it)
RoSPA Diploma advanced driving instruction
Registered Fleet driver trainer
Cardington, IAM, DIA, blah, blah....

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#10 26-07-06 09:47:16

New Girl
Verified Member
From: Somerset
Registered: 25-07-05
Posts: 524

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

Hi Sparks

I am insured with Waveney but can't see any off the Extended or the ADI Liability.  Is this something you pay extra for or is it included in all of their policies?

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#11 26-07-06 18:01:38

CarlatPUK
Verified Member
From: Worcestershire
Registered: 28-03-06
Posts: 323
Website

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

Hmmmm


PROGRESSIVE-UK Driver Development
Professional driver training by professional trainers
We also train driving instructors

Grade 6 (and worked for it)
RoSPA Diploma advanced driving instruction
Registered Fleet driver trainer
Cardington, IAM, DIA, blah, blah....

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#12 26-07-06 18:06:52

sparkle
Guest

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

I'll ive you Hmmmmmmm mr carl lol i dunnno if i pay more-cant be arrr$ed to check either sorry :evil: best to give them a call me thinks and im sure they be happy to tell you wink

#13 26-07-06 20:02:12

Josephs Grandad
Guest

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

Waveney qouted me £310 for my Micra 53 plate including everything Sparkle has posted, far better than any other quote

#14 27-07-06 15:01:50

New Girl
Verified Member
From: Somerset
Registered: 25-07-05
Posts: 524

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

Just renewed my policy today with Waveney and the bits Sparks was talking about are new extra cover that they offer.  Also only £150 excess for drivers under 25 (last year was a lot higher) and courtesy car is now for 28 days rather than 14.  So better policy all round.  Also worth noting that they weren't the cheapest quote I had, but I called them to see if they'd beat it and they managed to get £80 cheaper!  Well chuffed.

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#15 27-07-06 18:12:57

Colin Martin
Verified Member
From: Southsea
Registered: 21-01-05
Posts: 2,465
Website

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

You must have Professional Indemnity and Public Liability insurance for all aspects of your business, inside and outside the car. It's been well discussed on these forums but you will be hard pressed to find any other business which does not cover itself.

Remember, as self employed people, not limited companies, if you were unfortunate enough to have a claim against you everything you own is up for grabs to pay the settlement. Even if you win you may have to fund your defence for a few years whilst fighting a case.

I would recommend the DIA as the best value, but however you do it get insured.


Colin Martin
The Bright Red L http://thebrightredl.com
Instructor Apps http://drivinginstructorapps.co.uk
Apps Video channel https://www.youtube.com/colinbythesea

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#16 05-08-06 07:46:53

whodareswins
Verified Member
From: S.E.England
Registered: 12-04-06
Posts: 550

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

Hi everyone,

I have been reading the various posts on this, and other forums about which types of insurance are necessary, desirable and available to ADIs. I have spent many hours researching and speaking to various brokers, insurers and even the Financial Services Authority who are the regulatory body for all insurance matters.

Here is some information about Professional Indemnity (PI) insurance that you might find "enlightening".

I was on the phone yesterday to Waveney to confirm the renewal of my ADI Motor Insurance through NIG. I raised the topic of PI cover and was handed over to their resident "expert". I asked about the need, the cost and the fact that it seemed to be impossible for an individual ADI to acquire. His replies and explanations were very useful and informative.

1. Individual PI cover would cost many thousands of pounds and this was clearly beyond the reach of most, if not all ADIs. If you are willing to pay more than your annual gross income to secure such cover, there are one or two "specialist" insurers who "might" entertain your request. Group PI cover is available but ONLY through the MSA and DIA. In addition, the PI cover provided is only valid so long as you are a member of these associations. If a claim were to be made, it could be made up to 7 years after the "alleged" incident took place. This means that you MUST remain a member for at least 7 years if you believe that PI insurance is necessary. If you decide to leave the DIA/MSA after (say) 2 years, you will NOT be covered, even if the incident took place while you WERE a member.

2. After making extensive enquiries, and to the best of his knowledge, no PI claim has ever been made (successfully or otherwise) against an ADI over the last 20 years (that he has been in the insurance industry).

3. The fact that the MSA and DIA can provide (group) PI cover at apparently no cost is purely because nobody has ever made a claim and the risk is minuscule. They could not do it otherwise. (His words).

4. In order for an insurer to provide reasonably priced (individual) PI cover, they must satisfy the FSA that there is actually an insurable risk and a benefit to the insured. If there was, many insurers would be providing a product (and none are).

5. I raised a hypothetical issue which has been discussed at length in other posts about a former pupil (involved in an accident) sueing an ADI for alleged wrongful instruction prior to passing their test.

His answer was: No former pupil who might be involved in an accident/incident after passing their test can claim against an ADI for wrongful, incorrect or any other kind of (professional) advice provided prior to passing their test. The fact that they have been passed as safe to drive on the roads by a DSA Examiner, absolves the ADI from any responsibility. For this reason, DSA Examiners (all the ones HE knows) have their own PI insurance to cover this eventuality.

6. I mentioned that there have been cases where an Examiner has claimed against an ADI's car insurance (Public Liability) for e.g. whiplash injury caused by something a candidate allegedly did on the test. He informed me that :

(a) This is why ADI car insurance is ONLY provided for car where dual controls are fitted.

(b) When a DSA Examiner takes a candidate out on test, even though they are driving on a warrant, they legally become the ADI's "authorised representative" (in-car with the learner) and are expected to have the knowledge and experience to reasonably prevent such instances occurring. In addition, all Examiners are provided with adequate personal injury insurance by the DSA who have a "duty of care" responsibility. The ADI has no "duty of care" responsibility towards the examiner. However, Waveney (NIG) have realised that ours is becoming an increasingly litigious society and have taken steps to protect ADIs against Examiners who claim against the ADIs Public Liability insurance for incidents that occur on test and their ADI insurance includes £100,000 of legal expenses cover to fight this type of claim. And they WILL fight it.

Lastly, I have absoulutely no "axe to grind" with those who believe that PI Insurance is necessary nor with the MSA/DIA

Hope you find this "interesting".

Percy


Grade 6 ADI/Fleet Trainer, SAFED Registered Trainer, Qualified BTEC Assessor

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#17 05-08-06 07:50:51

sparkle
Guest

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

Percy ..thankyou smile that was very very interesting and goes hand in hand as to why i dumped the DIA over a year ago-waste of money big_smile


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#18 05-08-06 09:00:02

Colin Martin
Verified Member
From: Southsea
Registered: 21-01-05
Posts: 2,465
Website

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

2. After making extensive enquiries, and to the best of his knowledge, no PI claim has ever been made (successfully or otherwise) against an ADI over the last 20 years (that he has been in the insurance industry).

At the DIA AGM 2005, a large firm of solicitors did a presentation about case law and statutory law. In the part about case law they highlighted cases won, lost and in progress both with themselves and from case histories. I choose to believe them and was horrified at the potential results.


Colin Martin
The Bright Red L http://thebrightredl.com
Instructor Apps http://drivinginstructorapps.co.uk
Apps Video channel https://www.youtube.com/colinbythesea

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#19 05-08-06 16:56:09

phil jackson
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From: Letchworth Herts
Registered: 22-06-06
Posts: 394
Website

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

I am a member of the DIA as part of your annual fee you do get public liability insurance which is essential if clients visit your premises and public liability insurance which I also consider to be essential especially in this blame game era the cost of membership is not a great amount, any way I would prefer to cover all bases personally.
Regards Phil Jackson.


phil jackson
phillipjackson@adeptdrive.co.uk
tel 01462-636423
ADI's Wanted Stevenage,Letchworth,Hitchin,Baldock
N.Herts

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#20 05-08-06 16:58:56

whodareswins
Verified Member
From: S.E.England
Registered: 12-04-06
Posts: 550

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

At the DIA AGM 2005, a large firm of solicitors did a presentation about case law and statutory law. In the part about case law they highlighted cases won, lost and in progress both with themselves and from case histories. I choose to believe them and was horrified at the potential results.

Hi Colin,

1. If this is (indeed) the case, and I have no reason to doubt what you say, why can nobody EVER quote a single, solitary instance of an ADI being sued (where their Public Liability Insurance was insufficient to cover them). If case law exists, tell me where to find it.  Alternatively, provide me with the name of the Solicitors who provided the presentation at the DIA AGM and I (or my solicitors) will contact them directly.

2. Why aren't there ANY brokers/insurers willing to underwrite an individual ADI for PI insurance?

3. To your knowledge, has anybody EVER claimed against a member (ADI) of the DIA/MSA Group PI Policy?

4. Do YOU have (ADI specific) PI Insurance? If so, may I ask where you managed to get it?

5. What you are in effect saying is that any ADI who wishes to avail themselves of PI cover MUST join either the DIA or MSA. Good marketing, I call it. A nice little teaser.

The bottom line (as far as I can see) is that the DIA/MSA are at complete odds with the rest of the UK insurance industry regarding PI insurance. As I mentioned before, if there was a legitimate legal/business case for PI insurance for ADIs, those companies covering ADIs for other risks would be falling over themselves to provide the requisite cover. None are. I, therefore, remain to be convinced.


Percy


Grade 6 ADI/Fleet Trainer, SAFED Registered Trainer, Qualified BTEC Assessor

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#21 05-08-06 17:52:35

Colin Martin
Verified Member
From: Southsea
Registered: 21-01-05
Posts: 2,465
Website

Re: Should we have professional indemnity insurance?

I was one of many at that AGM Percy and unless the solicitors were lying for what was a long (and probably a bit boring in places) presentation then I have to use the information gathered that day about cases that had claimed on Professional Indemnity and public liability insurance, I think the earliest example was from the 70's. I will always say get insured no matter how you do it. The MSA and DIA seem to offer the best value but if you can get it elsewhere do so.

I have often put examples on forums of cases presented that day and my own experiences but I only get mocked by people who are somehow trying to justify not spending a few pounds a year to safegaurd their livelyhood and family. For that reason I will not get drawn into it any more. I have the view now if somebody loses their house and goes bankrupt then thats one less in competition. Maybe facing yet another birthday this week I am becoming a grumpy old man.

There is a fairly high profile situation running at the moment where people could be in big trouble if they don't have Professional Indemnity insurance for their "business" activities. I am sitting in the warm garden at the moment and can't be bothered to explain just to be mocked - I wonder if there is anything good going on eBay, or maybe download some iTunes.


Colin Martin
The Bright Red L http://thebrightredl.com
Instructor Apps http://drivinginstructorapps.co.uk
Apps Video channel https://www.youtube.com/colinbythesea

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