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#1 14-03-04 14:31:24

bigred
Verified Member
From: Kent
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 1,592
Website

Should CPD be made compulsory?

I am working with our local Instructor Association to set up a voluntary scheme of CPD, which will be verified by members of the CPD sub-committee.

I am also establishing the same programme with my own instructors on a compulsory basis. (Verified by me)

The DSA have talked about CPD for some time, with their most brilliant idea being for us to retake the part 1 exam.

Unless we come up with something far more positive, I think we’ll be faced with more of their ideas.

Have a look at the 2 following image links which, together, form the draft version of a CPD card issued to instructors for their comments and criticism. Please feel free to join in - but I want to see something happen that will move the issue forward.

http://www.bigredl.co.uk/graphics/CPD1.gif
http://www.bigredl.co.uk/graphics/CPD2.gif

Regards,

Offline

14-03-04 14:31:24

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Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?



#2 14-03-04 16:27:04

skier
Guest

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

Good idea, BUT ?

With DSA, DIA, MSA, ADI Fed and NJC all involved right now, or about to become involved, in CPD, why not do their courses ?

You say it is voluntary, but your ADIs must do it. What will you do if an ADI decides not to cooperate ? Will you sack them ? Then he goes complaining to the Union who will issue a statement of solidarity in support of him, then they send down bus loads of mass pickets from ''uupp north'' complete with flat caps, to your office and cause mayhem. Everybody out, brothers. Tony Blair gets involved, tea and sandwiches at 10 Downing St for the misfits. Peace in our time is announced, he gets his job back and you are on the dole. So much for CPD,

#3 14-03-04 17:28:03

Badger
Guest

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

CPD is an excellent idea but it must be voluntary if the ADI has to pay for it.

Clearly it can be made obvious that if it is not taken advantage of then those without CPD will fall behind, downgraded on Check Tests etc.

If CPD is to be made compulsory then the DSA will have to run the courses and it should be free.

I assume Red that you do not charge for the provision of your CPD and that in the terms of engagement of your ADIs you have made it clear that CPD is part of the game.

Badger

#4 14-03-04 19:00:10

bigred
Verified Member
From: Kent
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 1,592
Website

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

Badger,

For several years I've made it clear at interview stage that joining The Company means improving your own standard of tuition through a variety of CPD courses, I have helped out financially with courses and will continue to do so, but I have been a little reluctant to push things until now. Even with a 'compulsory' element, I still intend to be flexible!

and Skier,

Each of these organisations offer their own CPD but tend to concentrate on their own curriculum and use their own materials, I think choice is the name of the game! Having a seperate body (other than the DSA) to oversee this would be something I would like to see.

Unions have their uses!

Regards,

Offline

#5 14-03-04 19:38:12

Liesa
Guest

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

Personally I'm all for CPD as no doubt you've all already worked out. It's just a pity that there isn't more of an incentive to take part.

Good on you bigred for not only encouraging your ADIs to take CPD courses, but also being prepared to offer financial assistance as well!

I only wish that when I worked for the school I used to, that they'd have offered that sort of help!

#6 14-03-04 21:37:11

DAVE-ADI
Guest

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

Just to enlighten Skier on a matter or two.   DIDU, the new instructor's union,  is fully in favour of CPD.  In fact it is currently in talks with DSA about transferring HP testing from a requalification to cpd.

These organisations like BSM and the ADI fed who are setting up cpd courses are doing it to line their pockets.  DSA has yet to announce how cpd will work,  so any courses now running may not fit the criteria required for DSA.   

It (DSA) is currently carrying out a six month research programme on cpd, and the results will not be announced until later this year.  Then it will look at how cpd will work for ADIs.

#7 14-03-04 22:24:36

bigred
Verified Member
From: Kent
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 1,592
Website

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

My wife is a Pharmacist and for years has undergone a minimum of 30 hours per year CPD. In her field there are are always new drugs and other developments and of course, they do need to keep on top of it.

The short courses and workshops are free, others have to be paid for, but the time required to get to these courses and the travel expenses can be down to the individual.

I think they are generally funded by the Royal Pharmacutical Society, but overseen by a seperate body.

The choice of workshops and distance learning courses is vast and are chosen according to the individual pharmacists personal needs.

This is basically the model I have in mind, perhaps voluntary for now, but eventually leading to a compulsory basis in a few years time.

Offline

#8 15-03-04 22:45:20

pageant
Guest

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

With check test standards only requiring grade 4, what is the incentive for CPD ? Add to this the fact that driving instruction is not a profession which evolves particularly then CPD becomes redundant save for those of us who take a pride in giving of their very best. The check test system is a joke. What is the point of only requiring to achieve something you already achieved on part 3 when you were LESS experienced?  A waste of time methinks.
And retaking part 1! Is there anyone with a brain in the DSA? Again, doing something we've already proved we can do. Where is the incentive for CPD in any of this nonsense? Imagine say 5 years after qualifying as an ADI, the DSA required grade 5 as the minimum pass mark for check testing? Surely there's enough incentive there for all of us to further our skills.
Its rather ironic that a body that advocates CPD for its instructors is itself totally incompetent. It really should look in the mirror more often as it is not a pretty sight.


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#9 16-03-04 07:46:23

bigred
Verified Member
From: Kent
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 1,592
Website

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

Pageant raises some excellent points - the check test as it stands is in my opinion a waste of time as well. For the 13 years I've ben an instructor I've always been graded as a 4.

Preposterous you say!

I couldn't give a stuff is my answer!

I was recently talking to an ofsted examiner who says that schools often do better if they have a maverick teacher - someone who doesn't teach in a conventional way,  as pupils often (not always) respond better.
Hopfully my reputation is based on positive feedback from my pupils.

There are grade 6 instructors I've come acrcoss who could bore the pants off a celebate monk in mid winter.

It's not all about technical ability. I suggest presentation, personality, inspiration, hard work and an excellent customer service form the basis of a good instructor.

Being tested at the same level for years does nothing for me and gives me no motivation. Perhaps, as Pageant says

Imagine say 5 years after qualifying as an ADI, the DSA required grade 5 as the minimum pass mark for check testing? Surely there's enough incentive there for all of us to further our skills.

But there needs to be rewards for achievements othr than the ones we manage to eek out for ourselves through better reputations.

Regards,

Offline


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#10 16-03-04 08:02:44

DAVE-ADI
Guest

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

Pageant, 

you are contradicting yourself.   You say the checktest system is a joke, then you go on to suggest that  5 years after qualifying as an ADI, the DSA required grade 5 as the minimum pass mark for check testing?

The checktest and grading system really is a farce.   It does not properly assess an ADIs ability,  and certainly does not improve an ADIs ability. 
In many cases, it puts a normally competant and confident ADI under so much stress that he/she fails to perform at their best when it is most important.

It can put an ADIs livelihood at risk purely on the decision of one person who has no formal qualifications in assessment. 

And it splits ADIs into little groups,  some of whom believe they are much better than everyone else because they were lucky enough to be 'awarded' a six.   

It's a jobs for the boys system, to keep old examiners in work.

The art of driving is evolving all the time.   I remember being taught to change down through the gears when approaching junctions etc,   but that technique is long gone.   
So it's important to keep up to date with developments.   That can only be done through CPD, which if operated correctly is a system of progressive training and updating, without the pressure, stress or threat of losing your livelihood.    No one should be frightened to keep learning.
And gaining knowledge is far more rewarding than being told you are crap at the job,  which, if you are not a six, is effectively what you are being told.

Not that I trust DSA to organise CPD properly.   It couldn't organise a p*** up in a brewery.

#11 16-03-04 08:13:57

Liesa
Guest

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

Hi guys

As far as the grade's concerned, are the public really bothered?

In my experience they very rarely ask what grade you are.

Just a thought!

#12 16-03-04 11:20:58

pageant
Guest

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

DAVE-ADI- I did not contradict myself thankyou. You've totally misquoted what I said! You make some good points about the check test system though regarding the elitist nature of the grading system. Im sure there's a few '6' graders that think they're god's gift and fail to perform in actual lessons. Likewise people like me(and Bigred) with a '4' probably give of our best every lesson and end up giving far more competent instruction. If you're good enough you're good enough and the pass grade should reflect that and not create a false 'class' division. Im sure if I tried I could easily attain a '5' but there is no incentive for me to bother. I take pride in my instruction when im with my pupils and am confident in my ability and I'll be damned if Im going to let the SUBJECTIVE opinion of an SE dent my belief in myself. After my first check test the SE told me I had not instructed correctly regarding use of door mirrors. I was absolutely flabbergasted as to this day I know he was talking b*******! Since then I've treated it with the little respect that it deserves.
My point is merely that the grading system should give us an incentive to embark on CPD but as you so rightly point out, that pass grade should be the same for all.
I can't agree at all though with your point that CPD is necessary due to the changes in driving. You quote the one accepted change over the years regarding 'down gears' but what else can you highlight? Driving does not change AT ALL. The only reason for CPD is to encourage improvement of the competent skills we all already possess. There's nothing at present to make us do that.
And if you think about it logically, why should we need to embark on CPD if we have already been declared competent via the check test itself. Therefore its the check test that requires an overhaul to encourage us but because we are already competent in our skill then the CPD should be wholly voluntary and left to the instructor's discretion. The instructor can then assess his own personal needs or otherwise.
Personally I have done nothing with regard to CPD. I am confident in my own ability, happy with my pass rates and have literally lost count of the people who have said to me 'you're better than my last instructor'. I have no problem with antyhing that encourages me to embark on CPD, its just that I merely view it as a tool of self promotion and, as a guide to the quality of instruction, dubious to say the least.
Could someone please tell me why there is such an obsession with CPD in such a non-evolving profession that can easily be regulated with a well thought out check test system. Literally everything thrown at us at present will only succeed in perpetuating the misleading 'class' divisions amongst instructors. And as I have pointed out, its rather strange that the DSA (who would probably scrape a grade '2' for their performance), don't concentrate their efforts on their own pathetic failings. Instead of measures to scapegoat instructors with implied teaching flaws, why dont they address the real culprit. That is the driving test itself and the nonsense that allows a full licence holder to drive forever and a day developing whatever habit or driver attitude he/she feels like. So instead of continually bashing competent instructors over the head why dont they do something remotely sensible for a change and influence driver behaviour by mandatory retesting. Driver training is NOT the problem. Driver attitude IS. Hello DSA.... is anybody there.....?

#13 16-03-04 11:59:15

Badger
Guest

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

You say that the profession doesnt evolve.

Well it should because driving itself evolves and the profession should be keeping up with it.

The advent of more sophisticated transport, more congested roads and ever increasing efforts to streamline the traffic systems means that driving is a dynamic skill.

The profession that teaches driving should be up at the front on the leading edge of the developments and be thus better equipped to train new drivers for the evolving world of driving.

Currently CPD is a personal thing and it comes from many  sources:

Forums like this and UKDIC
Reading periodicals such as Auto Express
Attending Association meetings.
Reading up on vehicle technology.
Attending local council road safety meetings
and others that I havent time to thinki of just now.

To deny CPD is to stagnate.  I wonder how many ADIs have had a go at the ADI question bank on the Focus CD ?

I was talking to a Motorcycle Instructor just after the Great British Driving Test had been screened on TV.   He had not realised that you could overtake a vehicle doing 10 mph or less on double white lines. So he's been teaching his pupils something somewhat out of date.

A little personal CPD  or maybe some enforced study for DSA imposed CPD might help him up to date.

Just my view

Badger


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#14 16-03-04 14:19:52

DAVE-ADI
Guest

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

Apologies if I have misunderstood you Pageant.  Are you in favour of checktest or not?

I suppose we all do CPD at some point, if, as badger says, it's only reading forums like this one.

Where I live we have a good local association, and many members talk to each other for advice and information.  That's a form of CPD too.

Regarding changes:  cars change.  In the recent past power steering has become common,  and later still ABS braking with all it's extras.  Unless you actually experience these things how can you properly say you are qualified to teach it?    Have you driven a tiptronic geared car?  Do you know how it works?

And road markings and signs are changing regularly.   Bus lanes have only been introduced in our town in the last three years.   Our association members have recently had a long discussion about using bus lanes, and the following situation brought different responses - what would YOU teach your pupils to do?

You are driving alongside a bus lane which is in operation.  The vehicle in front indicates to turn right, but cannot proceed because of heavy approaching traffic.  Do you wait behind, or do you move left into the bus lane to pass the vehicle, and then move back into the right lane?

CPD is not just about skill, it's about knowledge.  You cannot teach it unless you have the knowledge.   

Given the choice of  being able to improve my knowledge or having a checktest to ensure I remain on the register,  the first option is the only one.

#15 16-03-04 19:31:54

bigred
Verified Member
From: Kent
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 1,592
Website

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

I think we're all totally agreed that the current situation is not working.

Check tests do not improve our standards - We've already attained that when we passed the part 3.

But what would work? it's all very well debating it, but unless we come up with workable solutions, I'm afraid we're all just hot air!

I agree with most of your points guys but what is the answer? If we don't come up with it, we will be stuck with the DSA forever. And that scares me!

Options?

1. The Status Quo (not the band)
2. Overhaul the check test system (how?)
3. Scrap it and replace it. (with what?)

Can more people join in on this debate please?

Regards,

Offline

#16 17-03-04 00:42:32

pageant
Guest

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

Badger and DAVE-ADI, your points are well put. Following on from what you and bigred are saying, how does the following suggestion sound. Keep the check test as it is. Those just qualified have educational and 3 check tests within first 3 years. Those who achieve grade 4 minimum on all 3 attempts automatically go forward to structured CPD programme and are no longer check tested as they have proved sufficient competence. This will also remove the elitist nature of the grading system as nobody will have one! Those who fail any of the 3 check tests receive compulsory training and are retested annually until they achieve the 3 consecutive passes. All current instructors to immediately go to CPD programme if grade 4 minimum achieved on previous 3 tests. Otherwise same rules as newly qualified. Any grade 5 or 6 check test grade will be assessed the equivalent of 2 passes for all. Therefore only one further pass at grade 4 minimum required for progression to CPD.
Its late and I dont know if what ive just written makes total sense. Im sure you will all tell me! It certainly beats anything the DSA could come up with.

#17 17-03-04 08:36:01

Liesa
Guest

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

Pageant

What you wrote makes total sense to me, and not only that I think you've got something.

I've not really contributed to this discussion, as I've felt that someone else has always said what I think, before I was able to put pen to paper, if you know what I mean!

#18 17-03-04 09:09:02

bigred
Verified Member
From: Kent
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 1,592
Website

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

Pageant makes quite a lot of sense with his post regarding check tests for the first few years or until assessed as ok to move to a well organised CPD programme.

I think it needs to be flow charted, so we can all see it.

As this period sounds like a probationary period, I think the trainee licence should be disposed of and a part 3 type entrance exam at the front end.

With the amount of time it would save SE's in doing check tests it would be easy to ensure that in the 1st 3 years each instructor had sufficient opportunity to be tested until fit to move on to the CPD side of things. It would give more incentive and more stability to the whole set up.

There are too many people on trainee licenses who have done the prescribed 40 hours training but cannot teach at all. There are others who find that 3 attempts later they are on the dole because they couldn't get their head around the Part 3 format.

Oooops - I've got to go to work - see you all soon -

Regards,

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#19 17-03-04 09:42:53

Midge
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 414
Website

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

The check test system as it is allows some people to "cheat".  I know of one instructor who practices with one particular pupil, the instructor even buys herself new clothes to go in.  She manages to attain a 6, yet her normal instruction is quite bad.  She thinks it is o.k. to do a bit of shopping in lesson time.  Her route is where she needs to go, rather than what the pupil needs to learn, her pass rate is low, and she struggles to get enough pupils, has to spend a lot on advertising, special offers etc.
The system as it used to be was slightly better.  You just had to tell the SSE what addresses you would be at, and the times, on a certain day, and he just turned up at one of them, no chance to do anything special, unless you did it with every pupil you had for that day.  It probably caused problems when you had pupils who started at one place and finished their lesson somewhere else, as the SSE's car would be at the starting point.
This work is self checking really isn't it?   If you don't keep certain standards, you don't get much work
Midge


Midge  -   Dip D.I.

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#20 27-03-04 23:23:40

Approved Instructor
Verified Member
From: Blackburn, Preston, Lancashire
Registered: 16-03-04
Posts: 884
Website

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

Check test; A right load of tosh !

I can remember when i first started, Some instructor (know it all)
was telling me how he gets a grade 6, Oh anyone can do it he said-Ive done the same thing for the last 3 years and got a 6 every time.
He then went on to tell me about the route he uses year after year.
Ill leave that there, But i will say i didn't like what he was saying !

In simple terms, When you pass pat 1,2,3 you are then told you are good enough to teach Jo public and charge for it, Great !

But then you must keep up to date with everything, Ok Fair enough.

And how are you checked ? A check test, LMAO  big_smile

And now I'm told i will have to re-take part one, Good i think this is a step in the right direction. But to take the P**S and charge £50 for a retake and to offer no re-training, Thats a joke, Must be ?

I want to and will take the diploma for driver instruction, Of course i want to know that I'm doing the best i can do in my job. Why stop learning because Ive passed part 3 ?  nothing else stops, Bring it on i say...

What can/will replace the check test ? not got a clue, But computers may play a big part.

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#21 15-01-07 12:20:48

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,695
Website

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

The check test system as it is allows some people to "cheat".  I know of one instructor who practices with one particular pupil, the instructor even buys herself new clothes to go in.  She manages to attain a 6, yet her normal instruction is quite bad.  She thinks it is o.k. to do a bit of shopping in lesson time.  Her route is where she needs to go, rather than what the pupil needs to learn, her pass rate is low

That's a good point Midge, any check test will have a certain amount of "artificiality" built in and issues like those you quoted would not be addressed - the only way to overcome this hurdle is not to have "pre-planned tests" but to audit (monitor) the ADI's perforfance on a day to day basis - say, continuously over a two week period. Of course, this is not practical. And I don't have an answer to it either.


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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#22 17-01-07 16:27:07

kev elliott
Guest

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

Midge wrote:

The check test system as it is allows some people to "cheat".  I know of one instructor who practices with one particular pupil, the instructor even buys herself new clothes to go in.  She manages to attain a 6, yet her normal instruction is quite bad.  She thinks it is o.k. to do a bit of shopping in lesson time.  Her route is where she needs to go, rather than what the pupil needs to learn, her pass rate is low

That's a good point Midge, any check test will have a certain amount of "artificiality" built in and issues like those you quoted would not be addressed - the only way to overcome this hurdle is not to have "pre-planned tests" but to audit (monitor) the ADI's perforfance on a day to day basis - say, continuously over a two week period. Of course, this is not practical. And I don't have an answer to it either.

Wonder how long before some bright spark at the DSA come up with the idea of mystery learners?


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#23 17-01-07 17:54:10

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

I think I've got a mystery learner or two at the moment!

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#24 18-01-07 09:28:34

captainhook
Verified Member
Registered: 12-06-06
Posts: 2,197
Website

Re: Should CPD be made compulsory?

Ive had learners before that have acted just like a se on part 3 its weird lol. Almost trying to trick you up with q and a


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