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#1 30-10-04 11:03:21

hampshirebabe
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-04
Posts: 82

IAM versus ADI

I've just been for my 2nd observed drive, and as an ADI I find some things too different. 1stly putting on signals at junctions, I keep being told I'm putting them on  too late, but I do it when I tell my pupils to put them on. I usauly go for about 3-5 clicks of the indicator, but I counted them when he say is correct and its at least 10. If my puils did that I'd say it way too soon. I'm not talking about at high speeds, but in busy town situation, where your driving quite slow anyway.
The other point is when to change up a gear. We were doing 40 on a country road, not too narrow, or too windy, we were on a longish stretch with a bend in the distance and I was doing 40 for quite a while but he said dont change up because the bends up ahead. If I was driving it myself I'd have changed up, then when I got near the bend have considered changing back down, it wasn't even that sharp a bend anyway. I'm not saying my way is right, I just dont understand why I should let the engine rev for so long.

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30-10-04 11:03:21

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Re: IAM versus ADI



#2 30-10-04 23:17:33

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: IAM versus ADI

hampshirebabe.= I have been with the IAM for over 10yrs now and in that time I have come across many observers who although advanced drivers themselves still dont understand the working's of Roadcraft. As for signals I would say that If you use the 5 features of the system (I.P.S.G.A.) on the approach to the hazard then everyone should know your intention's in plenty of time,it is hard to try and say whether you are right or the observer because as you know,you have to know the distance,lay out of road etc,also how early or late you get the information,the same goes for the country road scenario,you do not say what gear you were in 3rd,4th or 5th gear,from what you say you might be right without knowing the road every situation is different,all i would say is if you disagree with anything,whilst on an observed run,then ask the observer to explain to you what he means,if you still think you are right then ask the training committee they should hopefully resolve this problem,ans stop it from reoccuring again and if the observer needs to have further training then hopefully this should happen as well,stick at it, as you progress you will probably find yourself down this road again at some point no doubt.
                        Stephen

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#3 31-10-04 00:14:38

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: IAM versus ADI

Hmmmm interesting as I'm soon to start my observed runs for my RoSPA.  I'm sort of dreading it as one of the poice trainers at our local group has already given me his opinion on ADI's and quite honestly it's really put me off.  However I will give it a go and will let my Observer know my feelings when I'm in the car with him as he's the secretary of the local group!

Any advice re RoSPA greatly received.

Cheers

Lynne

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#4 31-10-04 00:22:04

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: IAM versus ADI

Lynne,
            Don' t worry about anything just drive like an advanced driver not like a driving instructor and I dont mean that in any disrespect just drive as Roadcraft say's progressive,smooth,systematic,safe. Rospa is a far better test to take as you get graded unlike the IAM it's just a pass or fail. With compulsory re grades.
                                             Stephen

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#5 31-10-04 00:48:30

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: IAM versus ADI

Stephen7738 wrote:

Lynne,
            Don' t worry about anything just drive like an advanced driver not like a driving instructor and I dont mean that in any disrespect just drive as Roadcraft say's progressive,smooth,systematic,safe.

Stephen but you say:

Progressive - I do
Smooth - I do
Systematic - I do (OK I appreciate the Roadcraft 'system')
Safe - I do

How is this not like a driving instructor???

Don't get me wrong I do understand that there are some differences ..from what I've read positioning appears to be the greatest from what I was taught for Part 2.   I have also heard 'rumours' about other differences which I'm sure the observer will tell me about.   My Pt 2 & 3 trainer was/is RoSPA Gold himself.

I appreciate you don't mean any disrespect and appreciate all the help and advice you can give, but can you  define for me how you think Driving Instructors drive?  It comes across to me as something akin to robotic!!

Maybe I've just got hold of the wrong end of the stick?

Cheers

Lynne

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#6 31-10-04 17:32:06

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: IAM versus ADI

I say drive like a driving instructor based on the fact that I have taken out roughly about 5 fully qualified ADI's and 3 training PDI's over the past 18mths this was to assess whether they were still up to standard with there Advanced driving skills and the main things that I found was following.
1.Failed to demonstrate carefull useage of the gears ie X box changing up/down also failed to select the most appropriate gear whilst negotiating single or multi hazard approaches.
2.Poor or no commentry allowing to assess how far ahead is being observed although not compulsory for test but is shown during training.
3.Poor observations which lead to poor or late planning.
4.Drive to close to the nearside in normal conditions failed to position vehicle on approach to multi hazards.
All of the above were due to the fact that they probably teach learners on a day to day basis consequently letting there standard slip from Advanced to a good DSA drive I can only go off my personal experience's there is a difference between every individual and i am not passing judgement on you or your driving but let's not forget there is a big difference between pre driver training and post.
Stephen

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#7 31-10-04 23:05:09

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: IAM versus ADI

If the Cardington test is the highest standard of Advanced standard then why are all ADI's not holder's of both learner and Advanced driving qualification's why do they have to go to the IAM, Rospa,to gain the Advanced certificate and not everyone come to you for Advanced Instruction.
                                                                Stephen

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#8 01-11-04 00:31:05

drivetime
Verified Member
From: North Kent
Registered: 01-03-04
Posts: 216
Website

Re: IAM versus ADI

Lee
Cardington along with the DIAmond special test are both to the DSA syllabus,
they can not be compared to the RoSPA or IAM tests. You may pass the Cardington test as an ADI, and with some knowledge of roadcraft  the IAM test with a bit of help, but to get a good grade for the RoSPA test is a different story.
Two diiferent things as Stephen said

why do they have to go to the IAM, Rospa,to gain the Advanced certificate

To drive as you would for the Cardington test would not be seen as good for the RoSPA test.

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#9 01-11-04 02:06:56

Approved Instructor
Verified Member
From: Blackburn, Preston, Lancashire
Registered: 16-03-04
Posts: 884
Website

Re: IAM versus ADI

I don't want to state the obvious although ADI's are teaching the safest/easiest and best way to learn people the basics of staying safe, whilst learning to drive and developing those skills as they gain knowledge of other road user habits as they go along. and there-for taking thier new found knowalge towards  Road craft.

When i first started to learn about Road craft and the users of this method, i started to feel a rift between 2 styles/levels of driving. And the 'I'm better than you thoughts came to mind'  One sign of this is the title of the topic

ADI's who teach the basics to people that are learning to drive are themselves going to adapt this L test driving style.

Whilst Road craft is 'on another level' People who teach this style/standard day in day out, of even drive to the said, day in day out, are there fore going to drive like a good road craft driver, as do the good L standard driver.

As professional people we need to learn that we all are trying to achieve the goal of preserving life.

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#10 01-11-04 21:40:14

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: IAM versus ADI

Hi Stephen

Thanks for the reply and your comments as to what you find are the main weaknesses in ADI/PDIs.  I will be watching those things!!

And I'll be letting you all know how I get on  :!:

Cheers  smile

Lynne

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#11 05-11-04 20:03:14

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: IAM versus ADI

Hi...well said I'd let you know how I get on.  yep Stephen and Approved Inst. you are right.. I do drive like a driving instructor!   I have to say that having someone sit with me for the first time since passing my pt 2 was rather scarey and I was over cautious.

I have to remember to drive how I do when I'm running late in between lessons!    :shock:

Lynne

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#12 05-11-04 22:42:36

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: IAM versus ADI

Well done Lynne hope you enjoy it.

Can I ask though why Some Instructors have to put me as an Observer down all the time?
It's not as if I'm a threat to any of you is it.

I'm just getting a bit sick of the sarky comments from one or two instructors.

Sorry had to get that off my chest :oops:

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#13 05-11-04 23:55:24

drivetime
Verified Member
From: North Kent
Registered: 01-03-04
Posts: 216
Website

Re: IAM versus ADI

Hi Gizmotime
                  Your comment
           

Can I ask though why Some Instructors have to put me as an Observer down all the time?
It's not as if I'm a threat to any of you is it.

May have a few reasons,
1 They think being an ADI is above being an Observer , not true.
2 They themselves have not done it so dont understand it all.
3 May have done the IAM or RoSPA test and  not done so well.
4 Think the DSA syllabus is the only way to do it.
Im afraid some people think this way which is wrong, learner and novice drivers learn the DSA way. After that maybe Pass Plus, how many can say they have had Pupils go on to pass either IAM or RoSPA test's to advance their knowledge, not many. But those who have, normally aknowledge the hand over to the Observer.

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#14 06-11-04 00:18:08

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: IAM versus ADI

Thank You very much Mark for that, yo have cheered me up a little now sad

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#15 06-11-04 15:53:40

hampshirebabe
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-04
Posts: 82

Re: IAM versus ADI

Why do you have to make it so personal? I havent heard one positive comment from an observer about an ADI. It seems to me from what I've heard and experianced as an ADI wanting to try advanced driving, the moment being an ADI is mentioned, you stop being treated like an individual and are treated as a novice with no driving experiance so is going to be cr*p.
To become an ADI you have to pass 3 very difficult tests, and drive at a high standard all the time so as to encourage safe driving.
I think Lynns comment made it very clear as to which is the safest, driving like an instructor teaching someone to be safe, or rushing around to get from one place to the other as quick as possible.
And I think drivetime got it the wrong way round, its the observers who think themselves superior, even though to them its a hobby but for us its a profession. If I had thought I was superior, I wouldn't have tried it out to start.

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#16 06-11-04 17:22:40

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: IAM versus ADI

Now you have shown your true colours, I am not making it personal I simply asked a question,because of a private message I got.
Your the one dishing out the insults I for one do NOT think I am above anyone at all and yes I do know about the training to become an Adi I'm doing it.

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#17 06-11-04 17:30:05

hampshirebabe
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-04
Posts: 82

Re: IAM versus ADI

Why, Gizmotime, do you think I was talking about you? My question in the first place was not putting anyone down, it was just that I dont understand why he was telling me to do certain things. What insult did I dish out?

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#18 06-11-04 17:32:51

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: IAM versus ADI

Don't take it too heart I have never spoke down on this site about ADI's,the only criticism that have been levelled at ADI's was when they take there Advanced lesson's it should be good constructive criticism which,hopefully you yourself give out on a day to day basis. I do however feel that you have to come to terms between DSA standard and what is required for Advanced,admittedly this type or style of driving is not for everyone,so if you try it and it is not for you then all well and good,perhaps if you percivere a bit more with it, and forget any class distinguish between you ie superior or inferior,im sure it's all meant in good spirit.
after all it was Lynne who asked me to evidence what driving like a driving instructor meant in my opinion.
  Stephen

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#19 06-11-04 19:09:37

Approved Instructor
Verified Member
From: Blackburn, Preston, Lancashire
Registered: 16-03-04
Posts: 884
Website

Re: IAM versus ADI

Hi,

As we all know body language plays a big part of our day to day lives, we can learn a lot from it.
Also it help us to come to a understanding of what a person is feeling or meaning when they talk.

Text on the forum can be taken in the wrong way, and as a group we should understand this. like Stephen says 'try not to take it to heart'.


PS, I dont mean anything by that   :?

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#20 06-11-04 22:25:29

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: IAM versus ADI

Everything in the Garden is fine smile  Things can be taken the wrong way sometimes,which is what has happened today, but I have spoken to Hampshirebabe and we understand where we were coming from. big_smile

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#21 07-11-04 00:25:25

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: IAM versus ADI

Hi All!!

Goodness!!  Let me explain briefly where I'm at.  As a pre Rospa run I have joined the local Advanced Drivers Assn and have done 10 hrs of theory and a MCQ test at the end of it.  One of the traffic officers who took the 'classes' did slag off ADIs (and the DSA) to a certain extent (which I mentioned on another forum)  I have to say I know how Hampshirebabe feels (re her comments also on this).  This nearly put me off the local group and when I get the opportunity I will say something to him because I felt it unfair that I had to put up with his opinions when I'm there trying to improve myself.  Having said that both him and his colleague have taught us absolutely loads that you won't get out of "Driving - the Essential Skills" 

My actual observer as it turns out, is the local secretary and is also now retired, ex traffic.  His comments were helpful and I hope that next time we go out I will feel more at ease.   His words to me where basically "I don't mind if you throw me about a bit in the car" as opposed to me doing a slower, more smooth run.  So, OK I did!!  Some of what I did wrong was down to nerves, as when he mentioned it I knew I had practiced it when driving on my own (eg. all braking done before clutch and gear change - BGOL I believe this is termed as)  But hey I couldn't ask for a better, more knowledgeable observer could I?  And guess what ...I gave HIM a couple of pointers on how to get people to remember things   big_smile  big_smile  big_smile

The way I look at this style of driving is like this (and those of you who know me know I am into horses).  There are various styles of riding; a lot of the basics are the same but what you achieve from your techniques and commands will give you a different result.  Therefore as an ADI I have been taught the DSA style of driving (lets call this polo) and I now want to achieve Roadcraft style (so I'll call that showjumping) but whatever, eventually you need to sit on the horses back and apply the appropriate aides.

Why is either wrong because you want to learn another style?

Anyone who is an observer is, I would hope, 'qualified' or knowledgeable enough in that particular style to help assist the 'pupil' to achieve their goals.  After all observers give up a lot of their spare time to do this.  (I'm sure many people are grateful to you Giz  wink  )After ADI qualifying I spent some time deciding which test to do next and it was the advice of other instructors that made me decide to go for Rospa.  When I've done it (and even now) I am incorporating what I can of it into my lessons but I do not expect my pupils to be able to drive to it (and nor would the examiners!)  But my pupils are already learning about the limit point.  smile

In my opinion people should keep an open mind; if once you've learned it and don't agree/like method then it's up to you on the style you adapt.  But I would hope surely by expanding your knowledge you have a wider scope from which to draw on.

I'll no doubt be back asking more questions  smile

Hope I haven't gone on too much it's late.  Thanks to all the Roadcraft junkies that are offering advice. 

Lynne

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#22 07-11-04 07:37:53

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: IAM versus ADI

Lynne thanks for that compliment, I'm sure a lot of people are grateful for the spare time I and the other Observers give up as well. If I as an Observer have helped someone become a safer Driver then it's worth it.(and there have been plenty over the last four years) wink
It is a two way thing I can help Adi's with advanced driving and you as Adi's can help me a lot with your knowledge on how to become a good Adi which is what I am determined to be.
Roadcraft I know inside out and back to front as many of you know.

I would advice that others try and get hold of the Roadcraft Video it does explain a lot of what we are talking about on this forum.

Lynne I really enjoyed reading your post then Thankyou.

Regards Giz wink

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#23 07-11-04 19:21:49

crr003
Guest

Re: IAM versus ADI

Gizmotime wrote:

#snip#

I would advice that others try and get hold of the Roadcraft Video it does explain a lot of what we are talking about on this forum.

#snip#

Regards Giz wink

Last time I looked there were two errors...........maybe three  :shock:

Small, but interesting!

Roger


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#24 07-11-04 19:57:12

crr003
Guest

Re: IAM versus ADI

lee wrote:

in my opinon cardington is the best advanced driving test around . i should know ive trained advanced drivers to become adis and they arnt that good they would never get a pass at cardington. adi bage and a advanced driving test is a advanced cert. alot of rospa trainers are trainers and are very close to breaking law . you heve to be a adi to give driving tuition.

I thought as long as you don't get paid (money or money's worth) anyone can "teach"?

Roger

#25 07-11-04 20:00:57

Anonymous
Guest

Re: IAM versus ADI

so you there is no money involved at any point. and whats wrong with becoming a adi to teach so called advanced driving

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