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#26 06-06-06 20:18:29

evan
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

I also think you hit on an important subject regarding test pass rates. I have to disagree with you Hayley, I think you can judge the instructors ability with this system.

Well here is a bit of fact for you to think about when you discuss pass rates. Up until the beginning of May I had 13 pupils pass in a row.  eight of them first time 3 second time and 2 3rd time.

During the last 4 weeks I have had 2 pupils fail 5 times between them 1 of them twice and one of them 3 times. Both do stupid things on the day, I could go into detail, if you want but you will find it boring.

The simple facts of the matter are this, if you based all of your assumptions just on pass rates, there would be periods in every instructors year, when your analogy would deem him/her a substandard instructor.

Now here's the way I work things out, I teach all of my pupils to well above test standard, however, some for whatever reason do stupid things on the day of the test. As you can see I have clocked up 5 fails because 2 pupils messed up on their tests.

Interestingly, you generally find these type of pupils fail a few times and then finally get it. Of course the self-opinionated instructor could choose to turn his/her back on the pupils that require that little bit extra effort, and embroil themselves in high pass rates and how good they look on paper.

Me, I'm in this job to help all of my pupils irrespective of their ability, and believe me there are times when it's extremely frustrating. So before people make comments decrying the abilities of instructors whose pass rates may drop, please try and look at the bigger picture.

If you would like to come and sit in the back of my car at any time, with some of my more difficult to learn pupils please pm me an I will arrange it for you. It is also worth noting, that I have also taught people with learning difficulties as well, may not get me into the hall of fame for pass rates, but gives me a sense of achievement when they do well. Hope this little snippet will be illuminating and shed a bit of light on the other side of driving instruction.

Always worth remembering that our greatest accolades come from our pupils when they pass, not faceless names employed by the DSA. Ev

06-06-06 20:18:29

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Re: Pink Ticket Time



#27 06-06-06 20:26:19

luchell
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Ev you say things so much better than i can at times smile How about sparkle on here who taught many many deaf pupils, i remember a thread with her saying her pass rate may not be wonderful at times but the satisfaction is. Same with learning disabilities etc. There is no such thing as an 'average' pupil. Some really struggle with certain aspects. On test day it is time to let go of their hands as only they can do it for themselves. If they do as we have taught them they will pass B~UT we all know that doesn't happen as people will and do fail the driving test :cry:

I have a group of three pupils who i have had for a year. They have all find learning difficult and have taken their time. they are now good little drivers but tests petrify them!!!! So between those three one has failed three times this year, one three as well another two. I also had a pupil pass first time after 11 hours on the road!!!!!!!! If i have a bunch of naturals which i had late last year lovely stuff pass rate wise. Not so much reward from a personal satisfaction point of view.

I don't care if my three that are struggling take as long as it takes them to grasp the test and keep brain power going to their limbs. I will be SO massively proud of them for succeeding and never giving up it is more than worth going through the sad times of failures with them.

#28 06-06-06 20:36:00

adam1516
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Guys,

I understand everything you have said. I'm also intelligent enough to know that you would also disagree with what I said. I would have been shocked if you hadn't.

Look, I'm not talking about individual pupils, or even a batch of bad pupils. I'm talking about an annual average, with peaks and troughs taken into account.

Evan, the scenario you talk about would be valid if you were marked on a weekly basis, but that is not what I am suggesting. I am not, repeat not, decrying all instructors. I am simply suggesting that the current system is inadequate, and there is little or no accountability. It doesn't take an experienced ADI to work it out Evan. I thought it was obvious what I meant.

Hayley, you say some guys at BSM have only a 33% pass rate and you do not question their instructional abilities? I find that astonishing. 33% is way below the national average, so something is wrong. Maybe they are not interested in get pupils to pass at all. My ADI says there are plenty of instructors out there who operate in that fashion.

Thanks for your offer of coming with you in the back of your car Evan, but that is something I already do with my ADI. By the way, his pass rate is 68%, and believe me, some of his pupils have been extremely difficult to teach.

I am well aware what ADI's must think of some of my ideas - but sometimes looking in from the outside gives you a much more objective perspective.

#29 06-06-06 21:02:46

evan
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Interesting my pass rate is a similar percentage, which is coincidental.

But what if you have an instructor who is semi-retired and puts lets say 3 or 4 pupils to test in a year, this actually happens by the way. If they all pass he would then have a 100% pass rate. Would he then be considered a better Instructor than another who perhaps puts 60 pupils to test in a year and has 40 pass and 20 fail.

It's again a play on numbers.

With regards to pupils, most of my pupils come from referrals, some because of my ability to get those that are able to a good standard quickly, but a lot more come because I have a good reputation for never shouting, or getting irritated when it takes pupils a while to pick things up.

There are many reasons for people being in this job, it really is all about what gives you the greatest satisfaction. I have found my niche in the industry, I have pupils that think a lot of me and past pupils who stay in touch with me. I have many colleagues who I have respect for and they have respect for me. Do we ever talk about pass rates to each other? not that I can ever remember, mostly we compare ways of teaching and share hopes for our pupils success when they are out on test. I'm lucky to have a lot of indies around me who are like minded and damn good colleagues. That's why I like my job so much. Ev

#30 06-06-06 21:08:25

sparkle
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Woof::::::::::: I told you to come to me! big_smile big_smile big_smile You wouldnt be writing this thread now lol

Call me if you start to panic i will give you a hand wink

#31 06-06-06 21:10:49

evan
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Woof you had better get your Bing Crosby avatar back and start singing nice songs to sparks. Ev big_smile

#32 06-06-06 21:18:15

markA.d.I
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Thats an offer i wouldnt refuse Woof my lad !

#33 06-06-06 21:25:39

WOOF
Verified Member
From: Chingford, London E4
Registered: 05-03-06
Posts: 87

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Just to put my 2 penneth in about pass rates before I sod off to bed.

Most of my tests will be at Chingford and Loughton test centres. Annual pass rates for 2004. 31% and 33% respectively. Seems to me if you attain a 50% pass rate at these centres you're doing a decent job. From memory both in the top 10 hardest centres in the country.

Once I am qualified and more experienced I hope to better that.

BOING! (said Zebedee)


Regards,

WOOF
--------------------
Part 1 - 100/68 - 01/08/2005
Part 2 - 4 Minors - 19/10/2005
Part 3 - 4/4 - 27/06/2006

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#34 06-06-06 21:27:58

sparkle
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Me think Woof is avoiding me <<sulking now>>

Woof..Barking has a pass rate of 29 or 30 cant remember which yes i rarely get a fail babe..... so dont worry bout it.. wansted is bout 28 % !!!!!!!!


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#35 06-06-06 21:29:05

WOOF
Verified Member
From: Chingford, London E4
Registered: 05-03-06
Posts: 87

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Thats an offer i wouldnt refuse Woof my lad !

I've seen a picture of the lovely Sparkle. I wouldn't be able to concentrate on my briefings!!! smile


Regards,

WOOF
--------------------
Part 1 - 100/68 - 01/08/2005
Part 2 - 4 Minors - 19/10/2005
Part 3 - 4/4 - 27/06/2006

Offline

#36 06-06-06 21:37:30

sparkle
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Ok ok... at least mention to the SE up at goodmayes you know me etc etc..part trained you all that biz  wink

Mr Ward & Mr Burns are top blokes there...you will get either one wink

#37 06-06-06 23:55:42

adam1516
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Hi guys, just a quick post to wrap all of this up.

I am surprised by the low percentage pass rates for some of the test centres you guys have mentioned.

Anyway, I'm not saying my suggestions are the perfect solution - maybe there isn't one. All I'm saying is, and I think most people would be in agreement, that the system needs to be better regulated, monitored,  and made more professional.

I have just given a few suggestions as to how that might come about, and of course with change there are bound to be some people who lose out.

The part time ADI is a case in point, but maybe that could be taken into account.

It's not rocket science!!!!

#38 07-06-06 10:59:49

Primo
Member
From: South Hants
Registered: 10-12-05
Posts: 62

Re: Pink Ticket Time

To expand on jackluxford's original points, I am also having trouble with the role-play situation, as I know my trainer will not crash the car or run someone over. I have brought this up before and evan and luchell have kindly said I need to rise above this and treat the SE as a pupil. This is true, but does not always help. (Fault analysed but not remedied?) What I am now working on in my head is that although the SE (and my trainer on lessons) is pretending, once the patter for the briefings and talk-throughs becomes more natural (not yet but I am being positive), the pretense I am hoping will not be so obvious - as luchell said you go into automatic and will enjoy it. Hope this helps.

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#39 07-06-06 19:07:46

evan
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Primo, why don't you make an appointment at the local test centre to have a chat about the part 3 test with the SE. These guys are not demons, they quite like helping you out and you can put over some of your worries as well. It's only a thought, the SE in our local test centre is really friendly and always ready to help. I know I can't vouch for all but it's worth a try. If you would like to talk about this situation pm me and I will give you my number to have a chat about it. Ev


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#40 08-06-06 05:26:48

jackluxford
Verified Member
From: Westbury, Wilts
Registered: 03-02-05
Posts: 39

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Primo, why don't you make an appointment at the local test centre to have a chat about the part 3 test with the SE. These guys are not demons, they quite like helping you out and you can put over some of your worries as well. It's only a thought, the SE in our local test centre is really friendly and always ready to help. I know I can't vouch for all but it's worth a try. If you would like to talk about this situation pm me and I will give you my number to have a chat about it. Ev

Do we have any SE's using the forum, would be good to hear their point of view about roll play situation.
I like the idea of nipping along for a chat with one too, thanks Ev!


Jack.

Part 1 - 16/6/2005 Passed 95/57
Part 2 - 12/10/2005 Failed 6/1
Part 2 - 25/10/2005 Passed! 2 minors
Part 3 - 13/12/2006 Failed 3-4
Part 3 - 21/12/2006 Failed 2-3 (disgusting)
Part 3 - 13/6/2007 Failed 3-3

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#41 08-06-06 08:12:44

evan
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

There are not any SE's to the best of my knowledge using the forum, or commenting on issues. I'm not saying they don't look at the forum, but it probably wouldn't be wise for them to give comments in public.

I also spoke to the SE yesterday about the rumoured scrapping of the Pink Licence, he informed me that they have had no notification of this. If this is the case then the pink looks to be around for some time yet, which is good news for PDI's who want to get the benefit of experience from it.  Ev

#42 08-06-06 08:41:53

luchell
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

So when are we goin to get the correct info then  roll we get told its going blah blah honestly they dont communicate do they yikes

#43 08-06-06 08:54:03

evan
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Makes you wonder that's for sure. But if the SE's don't have anything in writing, I can't see that the DSA would just spring it on the industry overnight. Ev


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#44 08-06-06 09:04:57

whodareswins
Verified Member
From: S.E.England
Registered: 12-04-06
Posts: 550

Re: Pink Ticket Time

I also spoke to the SE yesterday about the rumoured scrapping of the Pink Licence, he informed me that they have had no notification of this. If this is the case then the pink looks to be around for some time yet, which is good news for PDI's who want to get the benefit of experience from it.  Ev

It is NOT a "rumour". The new Road Safety Bill has been going through Parlaiment since November 2004. On Page 90 of the Bill (Schedule 4 - Driving Instruction), you will find the following:

Omit sections 129 and 130 (licences for giving instruction so as to obtain practical experience) and the heading before them.

Percy


Grade 6 ADI/Fleet Trainer, SAFED Registered Trainer, Qualified BTEC Assessor

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#45 08-06-06 10:59:18

adam1516
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Hi guys,

Yes, my ADI keeps banging on about the evntual scrapping of the pink licence, and it looks like one of us has taken the care to actually find out for a fact. It can only be a good thing for raising standards.

Here is another rumour floating around - the mandatory capping of the amount of instructors who pass their part 3.
I read somehwere that there are so many trainess (30000 in the system, and growing) that established instructors are now having to take part-time jobs to pay their bills.

How depressing is that?

#46 08-06-06 12:50:30

luchell
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Until the above post saying about an Se not knowing the pink was to be scrapped i had read the road safety bill above and i was aware of the facts neutral What confused me is that an Se had heard nothing about it yikes  neutral That makes us all wonder whats going on smile

I've got plenty of work Adam so don't worry, out of those pdis plenty sadly will drop out for whatever reason including failure of the tests. Alot seem to drop out at part two stage. So the amount of pdis on the register will be no where near as many by the time they get to green licence time!!

Any thoughts on your future Adam? Are you going to go indy do you think? The work is out there honestly, its just a matter working out ways of getting it wink

I know of some here who have gone part time and are know working in asda and tescos. Why? They cannot get enough work, i do not know why though as there are plenty of us who have work so something they are doing cant be right. Maybe not enough effort into advertising or not knowing any other sources to use such as sixth form colleges.

I can well imagine after working as hard as you have at this it must be a horrid feeling to know you could get out here and there won't be enough work. Fingers crossed you will be fine. smile

#47 08-06-06 16:38:07

adam1516
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Hi Hayley,

I sometimes wonder. My ADI, God bless him, paints a pretty gloomy picture of the future of the industry. I was considering maybe going with BSM on the pink licence, because at least then I might be able to actually earn a living.

Here's a quick calculation -

30 lessons @£24.00 each = £720 gross
Minus franchise fee - £330
Minus fuel - c.£80 - £100

Result = £290 left

If you take into account tax and NI - ouch.

Lucky to take home £200 per week for a probable 40 hours work.

My ADI assures me, God bless him again, that the pupils will be spread far and wide, and won't be blocked together for convenience. So those 30 lessons will be mostly evening and weekend work. Double ouch.

So, unless you are prepared to work 6 or 7 days a week, and put in massive hours, BSM would seem to be a bit of a nightmare. Is that what most people join this industry to do?

Saying that, every time I go out driving, I see dozens of them, most of them on a pink.

As for going indy, I guess that would be the end result if you managed to bring your pupil base with you, along with advertising, etc.

My definitive answer to you Hayley is - I just don't know. I will sit down and have a long hard think about it when I pick up my pink licence. I really hope it works out, but I would say to all PDI's just starting out that this career path is not a soft option where the streets are paved with gold. Far from it.

#48 08-06-06 19:43:53

whodareswins
Verified Member
From: S.E.England
Registered: 12-04-06
Posts: 550

Re: Pink Ticket Time

Get down off your high horse Mr Global Moderatoor.

I wasn't shouting at you. I only put the word "not" in caps to highlight it. I wasn't disputing anything you said, only providing a reference to the facts which anybody could have read during the last year and a half.

Percy


Grade 6 ADI/Fleet Trainer, SAFED Registered Trainer, Qualified BTEC Assessor

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#49 08-06-06 19:51:48

evan
Guest

Re: Pink Ticket Time

I'm not on a high horse Percy, please accept my apologies I took your post the wrong way then.
I was just trying to make the point, that with all the discussion about this topic, it seems a bit strange that even the members of the DSA seem to still be in the dark with regard to the future of the pink.
With so many PDI's querying the future of the pink it seems that no one is coming forward with any time scale for when it is to be phased out. Ev

#50 08-06-06 20:05:06

whodareswins
Verified Member
From: S.E.England
Registered: 12-04-06
Posts: 550

Re: Pink Ticket Time

You're forgiven Ev.

There's lots going on that the DSA hierarchy don't see fit to inform the rank and file.

Have a good'un.

Percy


Grade 6 ADI/Fleet Trainer, SAFED Registered Trainer, Qualified BTEC Assessor

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