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#26 27-05-06 10:30:23

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: IAM Driving course

Hi Nigel ADI and Gizmotime,

My previous comments were based on personal experience of Iams. I think the real problem is Some observers.

Sorry Nigel and gizmotime i do realise you put in loads of effort for road safety and are very comitted to what you do.For no financial gain.
The flat cap and pipe bit was my particular observer!

I did the iams 10 years ago and found i really couldnt agree with alot of the information i was being given.
Particulary on bends and roundabouts(straightening of) shoulder checks, signalling etc, loads of stuff really.
I spoke to ADI yesterday also an iams observer, and she certainly doesnt recommend any of the above.
I do think there is a problem with the observer training as you are often singing from a different hymm sheet? Would you agree?
I remember my observer giving no directions at all, simply observing and letting me choose the route. The shoulder checks im talking about were when joining a motorway by the way (free moving)


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27-05-06 10:30:23

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Re: IAM Driving course



#27 27-05-06 10:45:40

luchell
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Re: IAM Driving course

I also did mine ten years ago. When i did my part two training the only habit i had to get out of was shoulder checks far more frequently than my trainer was telling me was necessary. I found that one a hard one to kick.

Im a true Dsa way of doing things person though, for whatever reason i like the logic behind Mspsl although there are not that many differences in technique i will always stick to that not roadcraft. I went straight back after passing the Iam as well. I was always taught to signal by my observer.


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#28 27-05-06 12:03:10

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,962

Re: IAM Driving course

Sorry Nigel and gizmotime i do realise you put in loads of effort for road safety and are very comitted to what you do.For no financial gain.
The flat cap and pipe bit was my particular observer!

I do think there is a problem with the observer training as you are often singing from a different hymm sheet? Would you agree?

Hiya hector,
No problem it's just that I hate being branded the same as other Observers, I do my job properly and how I have been trained to do it.

As for the Observers singing to a different hymn sheet we should ALL be singing from the same one, I can only speak for our group though but that's the way the cookie crumbles unfortunatly and I can only apologise for the way in which you have had experienced your drive.

As for the "flat cap and pipe observer, I can honestly say we at our group are lucky in that respect, we only have a very few "older" observers wink (I'm not one of them) ;D

Also as for the Observer letting you choose your own route, well I'm amazed at that I really am, and that should NOT happen.
Please do have a word with your Chairman and Seniour Observer it's the only way it's going to get sorted out.

Best of luck.
Gizmotime

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#29 27-05-06 20:56:15

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: IAM Driving course

The observer should have a route sorted before a 'run' or at least have ideas in his/her head to test out how you handle differing scenarios.

Some of the 'differences of opinion' can be put down to changes of view over the years and what background the 'official' has.  On an official basis, both IAM and RoADAR are starting to say no to straightening roundabouts etc, probably because our society is becoming more litigious and there is little proof that the associate didn't misunderstand the advice given.  Talk to some of the older members or those with a Traffic Police background and you may well get information that suggests you can straighten bends and roundabouts.  If you have checked all around you, what is wrong with straightening a roundabout?  The car is a lot more stable!  By talk of bends, I presume you mean about moving over towards the centre of the road for a left hander?  To give yourself a slightly longer view and be seen sooner?  What do you see wrong with that?  Shoulder checks?  They will be discussed until world ends with no consensus.  If you don't like doing it then don't, it wont fail you the IAM test.  I am comfortable doing an over the shoulder check so I will continue to do them.  I'll agree to differ on that one.

Hayley, MSPSL is just a more rigid version of IPSGA.  I fully intend to teach IPSGA and not MSPSL in the future, but haven't managed to get my arse into gear with regard to training slides.  IPSGA, in my view, is much more flexible.  I do accept there are cases where a beginner would find the more rigid structure of MSPSL easier to follow though.

Hector, at the end of the day, there is very little difference between the standard needed for IAM or DSA and that difference is getting less as the years go by.

Nigel


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#30 27-05-06 21:53:02

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
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Re: IAM Driving course

Hi nigel,
No didnt mean moving to the right on left hander, teach that on all advanced courses no problem with that.No problem with ipsga, use that with learners and advanced alike .

Meant straightening right handers actually, several recent clients of mine mentioned they have done advanced driving courses from work or taken iams test, and have been told its okay to straighten right hander if its safe! The tutor is generally ex-police.And they have been told okay to straighten r/bouts when safe, trouble is of course they do it when its not safe! maybe years after passing their iams, im sure youd agree with that! Wouldnt you agree straightening r/bouts is very similair to cutting right hand corners? is that okay if its safe.

The main problem i think is when the persons driving starts to lapse, years probably after passing iams, mirror checks obs etc, and they are still in the habit of straightening r/bouts when its not safe.
I still think the signalling is an issue too, great to say we'll consider a signal only if deemed necessary, but wouldnt you agree the main problem is under signalling not over!
Drivers who are on the ball driving to a high standard not signalling is fine they are assesing whether one is required. Most peoples concentration isnt that good though and then they dont signal when it would have been necessary. Why not apply a signal when leaving one road to join another the old DSA way.

So many ADI mates tell me the same thing on iams, the observer kept telling me i didnt need a signal when clearly i could see someone who would benifit.

Anyway Nigel you probably dont agree with most of the above!  :-


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ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
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#31 27-05-06 21:55:21

luchell
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Re: IAM Driving course

I know Nigel i just have a thing for Mspsl lol Cant explain what or why neutral


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#32 28-05-06 05:25:08

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: IAM Driving course

....Meant straightening right handers actually, several recent clients of mine mentioned they have done advanced driving courses from work or taken iams test, and have been told its okay to straighten right hander if its safe! The tutor is generally ex-police.And they have been told okay to straighten r/bouts when safe, trouble is of course they do it when its not safe! maybe years after passing their iams, im sure youd agree with that! Wouldnt you agree straightening r/bouts is very similair to cutting right hand corners? is that okay if its safe.

I think, if you phoned up the IAM, they would say that bends should NOT be straightened.  As I said earlier, there will be some observers (mainly ex-police) that have been taught to straighten.  My personal feeling is that if it is clear, why not?  What harm will it do?

Hector wrote:

The main problem i think is when the persons driving starts to lapse, years probably after passing iams, mirror checks obs etc, and they are still in the habit of straightening r/bouts when its not safe.

But people will do that whether they have done some sort of advanced course or not!  Occasionally I have to berate my learners for straightening a roundabout - and I have NEVER taight them to do that!

Hector wrote:

I still think the signalling is an issue too, great to say we'll consider a signal only if deemed necessary, but wouldnt you agree the main problem is under signalling not over!

A signal should ALWAYS be considered (sorry being pedantic, but I knew what you meant).  Under signalling is suggesting someone is not signalling when they should.  I would not advocate that.  If a signal would benefit someone then it should be used.

Hector wrote:

Drivers who are on the ball driving to a high standard not signalling is fine they are assesing whether one is required. Most peoples concentration isnt that good though and then they dont signal when it would have been necessary. Why not apply a signal when leaving one road to join another the old DSA way.

But why?  I would suggest that these people that aren't signalling when they should are being lazy.  I doubt if many of them are actually thinking about whether one is necessary or not.

hector wrote:

So many ADI mates tell me the same thing on iams, the observer kept telling me i didnt need a signal when clearly i could see someone who would benifit.

Anyway Nigel you probably dont agree with most of the above!  :-

If an observer tells you you didn't need to signal when you could see someone who would benefit you turn around and tell them that.  It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that they didn't see that person.  Tell them why you signal and there isn't much they can say back!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#33 28-05-06 05:57:21

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: IAM Driving course

Its true most people are going to straighten r/bouts ,cut corners,straighten bends all without checking anywhere, considering anything and without being taught!


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ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
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#34 05-07-06 07:57:32

Iggy
Verified Member
From: West London
Registered: 13-05-06
Posts: 73
Website

Re: IAM Driving course

hi there, the only thing i dont understand is looking over your shoulder on the motorway. because you are driving at such a speed, your blind spot is what you have just drove along a second or even half a second ago. ..........

See your point, but motorbikes overtake fast!


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RoSPA (Dip) Advanced Motorcycle Instructor
www.njrmotorcycletraining.com

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#35 05-07-06 19:04:48

MrBassMan
Verified Member
From: Ceredigion, West Wales
Registered: 10-05-04
Posts: 669
Website

Re: IAM Driving course

secondly a lot of the observers are not trained well enough t o give instruction on the drive properly which can get very confusing

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. This was my experience of IAM as well.

Conflicting and incorrect advice.


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#36 05-07-06 19:09:29

MrBassMan
Verified Member
From: Ceredigion, West Wales
Registered: 10-05-04
Posts: 669
Website

Re: IAM Driving course

tazmeen wrote:

hi there, the only thing i dont understand is looking over your shoulder on the motorway. because you are driving at such a speed, your blind spot is what you have just drove along a second or even half a second ago. ..........

See your point, but motorbikes overtake fast!

Also - cars can come from lane 3 into lane 2 so when moving from 1 to 2 you need to check for this.

Another problem is that a car could have been travelling at the same speed as you and been in your blind spot for a while without you noticing.


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#37 05-07-06 19:24:06

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,962

Re: IAM Driving course

tazmeen wrote:

secondly a lot of the observers are not trained well enough t o give instruction on the drive properly which can get very confusing

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. This was my experience of IAM as well.

Conflicting and incorrect advice.

Mr Bass Man, that's your opinion based on YOUR experience with your group. We are NOT all tied with the same brush so to speak.

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#38 05-07-06 21:02:43

MrBassMan
Verified Member
From: Ceredigion, West Wales
Registered: 10-05-04
Posts: 669
Website

Re: IAM Driving course

I accept that - but, as I said, this was my experience.


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