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#1 29-04-04 16:51:37

B J McLaughlin
Guest

What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

Recently had a discussion with a local examiner who gave a pupil a minor for not signaling when entering a roundabout when going "ahead".
The examiners reason for wanting a right hand signal on entering the roundabout is that the exit is positioned at approximately 1 O'clock if compaired to a clock face.
The roundabout has two lanes on entry; the left lane is marked with a left turn arrow and ends at the left turn with a solid line chevron area; the right hand lane is clearly marked with a two headed arrow depicting "ahead" and "right turn". On entry to the roundabout these road markings are once again displayed on the road.
As the road planners have clearly designated the exit as "ahead" I have been instructing my pupils to enter without signal and then signal left for exit.
The Highway code clearly states that when going ahead you should not signal on entry however it fails to give a definition of what constitutes "ahead".
Can anyone enlighten me as to the right answer :?:
I have queried this with the SE for the area and he stated that the "12 O'clock rule of thumb" (his expresion) stood and I should disregard the road markings :!:

29-04-04 16:51:37

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Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?




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#2 29-04-04 18:49:04

adi
Verified Member
From: shropshire
Registered: 28-02-04
Posts: 1,231
Website

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

Hi,
personally i agree with you, but without seeing the roundabout for myself it's hard to say. If that is how the examiners want it done then so be it. We have some strange roundabouts at my DTC which have to be done in certain ways.

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#3 29-04-04 19:22:46

Liesa
Guest

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

Hi B J McLaughlin

Did the examiner ask the pupil to follow the road ahead at the roundabout, or did they ask them to turn right?

If the examiner asked them to follow the road ahead, then they shouldn't have received the fault.

I always tell mine, to listen to exactly what the examiner is asking them to do, and signal according to the instructions given.

There's a junction close to one of our DTCs, where the road bears to the left, officially if your heading in this direction, your following the road ahead. But when I sat in on a test, a few years ago, the examiner told the candidate to turn left at the traffic lights, they then signaled left and everyone was happy. wink

#4 29-04-04 20:50:55

Mike Geary
Guest

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

Hi Leisa + all

To me if the exit is , you want any turn before 12 o/clock it will need a signal left, except if there are more that one turn before the 1 U want.
After 12 o /clock = right signal + keeping it untill the exit B4 the 1 U want. change then to the left.
   so "Follow Rd Ahead = no signal til exit B4 the 1 U want = Left
Using this Methord  Me & my Pups aint had any Probs

Mike G>>>>>>.......>>>>>.....B4 NooowwwWWWWwwwwww

#5 29-04-04 22:37:23

chrisbagley
Guest

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

How about misleading road signs?   roll Here in Dorchester we have several signs that show the "road ahead" is opposite the road which enters the roundabout, :?  in reality it is well to the right, past "12 o'clock" :x   Summer visitors often don't signal at all and then go to the right. Pupils get confused thinking the sign matches the roundabouts true layout. :?   The local council will have none of it. Their answer is "The sign is not a graphical representation of the roundabout"  Typical, head in the sand attitude.

#6 30-04-04 06:47:11

Ozzie
Guest

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

To me the 12 o'clock rule is a waste of time, we have hundreds of roundabouts locally and you cannot see where the other exits are due to landcaping on them anyway. The layout boards on approach are not accurate, so I tell the pupils, first exit left lane, last exit right lane, normally left lane on approach for straight on unless road signs or markings say otherwise.

If you did follow the 12 o'clock rule on a roundabout with an offset road opposite at 1 o'clock on the way to town it would be right lane to go straight on, but on the way home it would then be at 11 o'clock so then its left lane for straight on, it wouldn't work out here especially as you can't see exactly where the damn exit is anyway.

Have a good day.

Ozzie


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#7 30-04-04 08:47:28

DSE
Verified Member
From: North East England and Scotlan
Registered: 03-03-04
Posts: 113
Website

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

The original post refers to a driving test scenario rather than a general driving query. In such a situation the candidate should simply follow the examiner's instructions (as eluded to by Liesa above).

That means that if the examiner asks you to 'take the road to the left, 1st exit' you signal left on approach and signal remains on through turn.

Examiner asks 'follow the road ahead'  you do not signal on approach, use left lane unless markings or signs show otherwise, then signal left once you pass the exit prior to the one you intend to take.

Examiner asks 'take the road to the right'  you signal right on approach, approach in right lane unless markings or signs show otherwise, then signal left and move left once you pass the exit prior to the one you intend to take.

The 12 o clock rule is a general rule that does not always apply. for example a roundabout with 5 exits may have one at 11 'o' clock and one at 1 'o' clock. The 11 'o' clock exit may be a very minor road while the 1 'o' clock exit is a major road and a continuation of the road number you are already on. In this situation it would normally be described as the road ahead and should be treat that way.

The simplest form of action is for candidates to follow the instructions of the examiner. That way they know they are treating the roundabout in the way the examiner considers it should be treat, and therefore all should be fine.


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#8 30-04-04 10:01:41

B J McLaughlin
Guest

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

Thanks to all for your replies. It seems clear that there is a deal of confusion on this subject.
The general jist would appear to be to follow the examiners instruction.
However I beleive that I should be teaching my pupils to drive for life and not to get through the test, therefore what the examiner calls for should be reflected in the Highway code and vice verca.
End result is that I am still confused.

#9 30-04-04 14:44:42

Mike Geary
Guest

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

Hi one + All

Yes signs do sometimes give "Incorrect" info,

Some "R" placed in the wrong position.(like 1 I know of, You see the RB B4 seeing the sign, its possition means no time to read it & get into lane!!!)

& yes I agree that "Listern" to what the EX says, ie "Take the first Major exit , left"  this realy means on one particular RB = 2nd actual exit. coz of a very minor Rd B4 the Major Exit.

Bye 4 NowwwwWWWwwwww Mike G


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#10 01-05-04 07:00:24

Bull on edge
Verified Member
From: NI
Registered: 13-03-04
Posts: 1,475
Website

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

Hi

i]I have queried this with the SE for the area and he stated that the "12 O'clock rule of thumb" (his expresion) stood and I should disregard the road markings[/i]

Good to see SE in complete agreement with the "Essential Skills" and "Highway Code" then :?  wink , Wonder if he has ever read them?


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#11 08-05-04 08:25:41

crazymaddriver
Guest

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

hi All

Can anyone tell me what sign should you folllow the road markings or a road sign (board) where i live we have a rounabout and to me if you follow the road markings you follow the corect route around the roundabout , but if you follow the road sign you cause confusion and cut up traffic.

which one should we follw road or signs ?

look forward to hearing from you


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#12 08-05-04 09:06:26

nicebutdim
Member
From: Blackheath, London SE3
Registered: 27-02-04
Posts: 39
Website

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

B J McLaughlin wrote:

Recently had a discussion with a local examiner who gave a pupil a minor for not signaling when entering a roundabout when going "ahead".
The examiners reason for wanting a right hand signal on entering the roundabout is that the exit is positioned at approximately 1 O'clock if compaired to a clock face.
The roundabout has two lanes on entry; the left lane is marked with a left turn arrow and ends at the left turn with a solid line chevron area; the right hand lane is clearly marked with a two headed arrow depicting "ahead" and "right turn". On entry to the roundabout these road markings are once again displayed on the road.
As the road planners have clearly designated the exit as "ahead" I have been instructing my pupils to enter without signal and then signal left for exit.
The Highway code clearly states that when going ahead you should not signal on entry however it fails to give a definition of what constitutes "ahead".
Can anyone enlighten me as to the right answer :?:
I have queried this with the SE for the area and he stated that the "12 O'clock rule of thumb" (his expresion) stood and I should disregard the road markings :!:

It is this petty minded rulebook nonsense that gives examiners a bad name!  To my mind as far as the test is concerned, the clue is in the direction, if the examiner says "at the roundabout go ahead" (or similar such phrasing) you should understand that they want you to treat the exit as being at 12 o'clock regardless of where it actually is.  I teach my pupils to treat any exit between 11 and 1 as straight ahead, but also to take clues from roundabout signs etc as to which path they should follow.

I do think you should draw this to the local SE's attention and ask for guidance (and common sense from the examiners themselves)


D.S.A. = Department of Silly Ar*es

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#13 08-05-04 17:56:43

Mike Geary
Guest

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

Hey J B M we have a similar  name 4 the DSA
   My abriviation of DSA = Dam Stupid Ar**holes

Which means they are not living/driving in the "Real" world!!!!!!


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#14 08-05-04 18:40:40

Liesa
Guest

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

Hi crazymaddriver

Can anyone tell me what sign should you folllow the road markings or a road sign (board) where i live we have a rounabout and to me if you follow the road markings you follow the corect route around the roundabout , but if you follow the road sign you cause confusion and cut up traffic.

which one should we follw road or signs ?

Follow the road markings :!:


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#15 09-05-04 19:07:57

johnexley
Verified Member
From: Selston, Notts. NG16
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 145
Website

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

On the approach to a roundabout with only 2 exits, at 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock when would you signal left, if instructed to follow the road ahead? There is no exit before the one you intend to take!

Regards, John.  wink


John Exley
A,B,BE,B1,C,CE,C1E,D1,D1E,f,k,l,n,p,h
http://www.johnexley.co.uk
http://www.towing-training.co.uk

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#16 09-05-04 19:17:18

Liesa
Guest

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

Hi John

On the approach to a roundabout with only 2 exits, at 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock when would you signal left, if instructed to follow the road ahead? There is no exit before the one you intend to take!

After entering the roundabout, because if you signal on approach, the signal will usually cancel itself.

#17 09-05-04 20:31:41

L-Buster
Guest

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

Hi All

On a roundabout with only two exits one at 12 and one at 3 i would teach as i would do myself and signal left on approach and leave at the first exit (the one at 12) checking that the signal had cancelled as i make progress on the new road.

The normal instruction from an examiner for this exit would/might be "please follow the road ahead take the first exit"

If the Examiner was to say "follow the road ahead" or say nothing (as you should be following the road ahead unless told otherwise) then it would be OK to enter and leave the roundabout without signal unless you felt that a signal would be of benefit to another road users.

many of the posts on this forum will come up with the words "Listen to what the examiner is saying as he will tell you what he wants you to do".

As a general approach using the 12 o'clock rule you will make the right call, on a roundabout with only two exits then you can't go far wrong in excepting one is left and one is right approaching as normal for any junction - Left, signal left, normal road position, leave at the first exit - right, signal right, just to the left of the centre line, on the roundabout signalling as soon as it would be impractical to make the turn prior to the one you require.

see it's as clear as mud lol

take care out there

Bernie

#18 10-05-04 22:31:15

nicebutdim
Member
From: Blackheath, London SE3
Registered: 27-02-04
Posts: 39
Website

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

Hi Bernie,

Have to say that I am in agreement with Liesa here.  If u r going striaght ahead u should NOT indicate on approach under any circumstances.  However once on the roundabout u are basically following a circular one way major road with minor roads off to the left, so you must signal your intention to the take the next left turn.


D.S.A. = Department of Silly Ar*es

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#19 18-05-04 19:24:18

Serpico
Verified Member
From: Hull, East Yorkshire
Registered: 18-05-04
Posts: 194

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

nicebutdim wrote:

Hi Bernie,

Have to say that I am in agreement with Liesa here.  If u r going striaght ahead u should NOT indicate on approach under any circumstances.  However once on the roundabout u are basically following a circular one way major road with minor roads off to the left, so you must signal your intention to the take the next left turn.

Although I have nothing against this generally there are times where in my opinion it is helpful to other road users to indicate left as you approach the etrance to the roundabout. I wouldn't advocate such an approach if it were a large roundabout, but on a small one and certainly on a mini-roundabout such a signal would confirm to oncoming traffic that you were not turning right.

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#20 19-05-04 11:30:55

petersull
Guest

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

Hi
Just talking out load here, but if i were a learner reading these I would be getting pretty worried and confused now.Roundabouts are not their best subject anyway usually.Surely when on test you listen very carefully to the examiner and follow his instructions, and when you have passed you follow the highway code.

smile  smile  smile  smile  smile  smile

#21 24-05-04 13:01:08

Mike Geary
Guest

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

Look at the signs,
                Lamp posts(To see how they may tell U if the RB is an oval (Streched as in over/under a mulit lane DC-way)
                                       Road markings,

Which means LADA (Look, Accees,Decide, Act (Action)

Be real! the HWC does not always give the correct answer, coz, it's too small a book to do that!

The Driving Manual is better,
 
But,  LOOK >>ASSES>> DISSIDE>> ACTION>>>>>((LADA))
Coz no publication can B right up todate>>>........ie MAPs  >>>>..........

Get the POINT?


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#22 25-05-04 18:10:03

B J McLaughlin
Guest

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

[Petersull wrote -
Hi
Just talking out load here, but if i were a learner reading these I would be getting pretty worried and confused now.Roundabouts are not their best subject anyway usually.Surely when on test you listen very carefully to the examiner and follow his instructions, and when you have passed you follow the highway code. ]


Once again I would like to point out that this is my very reason for posting this thread. There should be no confusion between the Highway code, the DSA examiners or the instructors. There should also be no confusion between driving on the day of your test or driving any day after it, but it would appear that there is little common agreement between anyone and the only ones to suffer will be the pupils.

Just one final point, Mike Geary - learn to type, please

#23 25-05-04 22:09:14

AliceM
Guest

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

How about this version as being harsh:

I had  pupil on his third extended resit.  He was asked to go ahead at the next roundabout 3rd exit.  This is a smallish roundabout with a large island that you cannot see over so he had no way of telling where on the clock the exit is.

Pupil hears 3rd exit and indicates right on approach, then left to exit.  Examiner FAILS him.  This is because the exit was at 12 o'clock to approach, other cars (no room for more than one lane at a time on this roundabout) would be confused expecting him to turn right and he then took the third (opposite) exit.

We didn't argue obviously.  He should have listened to the words "Follow the road ahead", but even so it seems harsh to make it a Serious.   Technically he was wrong - but I cannot see that it would confuse anyone - the only people who could have been confused (car waiting at opposite entrance waiting to see him go past them) couldn't see him come on because of large island in the middle!

Anyway - he has to have more lessons and a 4th attempt at his extended.  He is a good driver too.


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#24 26-05-04 16:13:20

Serpico
Verified Member
From: Hull, East Yorkshire
Registered: 18-05-04
Posts: 194

Re: What is "ahead" at a roundabout?

Alice, that's a clear serious fault to my mind. If there had been traffic in the left hand lane he could have caused serious problems for them. If he realised where he was going to was a straight on rather than a right he should have carried on round the roundabout to a subsequent exit.

Once again I would like to point out that this is my very reason for posting this thread. There should be no confusion between the Highway code, the DSA examiners or the instructors. There should also be no confusion between driving on the day of your test or driving any day after it, but it would appear that there is little common agreement between anyone and the only ones to suffer will be the pupils.

I can't agree. There are an infinite amount of situations that can arise on the road, and to expect there to never be any confusion or conflict of ideas is in my mind a little naive. smile
Maybe one day, when the road planners, engineers, road builders, DSA and everyone else get their acts together it will be possible to approach any situation by just applying the rules from the Driving Handbook, but until that day comes a big lump of common sense is required too.

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