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#26 11-04-15 22:24:23

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,656

Re: D1 101 Help please!

You need to get a medical, apply for provisional D1 entitlement, pass the theory test and HPT then sit the practical D1 driving test in order to remove the 101 restriction.

Then pass the module 2 and 4 to obtain driver CPC, or do 5 days in class.

I can put you through D1 module 3 and 4 in 1.5 days!


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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11-04-15 22:24:23

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Re: D1 101 Help please!




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#27 12-04-15 06:30:20

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101 Help please!

reddragonbus wrote:

You need to get a medical, apply for provisional D1 entitlement, pass the theory test and HPT then sit the practical D1 driving test in order to remove the 101 restriction.

Then pass the module 2 and 4 to obtain driver CPC, or do 5 days in class.

I can put you through D1 module 3 and 4 in 1.5 days!

If you do go for it then never pay more than £60 for a medical and tick C & D only on the D2 form


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#28 12-04-15 10:15:28

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Cheers guys,

For the time being, I'm not gonna be driving minibus, nor is anyone else.

Now, I'm kind of thinking out loud here, so bare with me...

On my license, for LGV C there is just a line, i.e, I would have to start from scratch, do all the tests, etc before I could legally drive a rigid wagon on the road by myself. Quite straight-forward and obvious.

On my license, for D1 there IS an entitlement, albeit with a restriction code of 101. So I CAN drive it, as long as it's not for hire or reward. Why would I require a provisional for something I've already got?

Looking at the old 'farm labourer' example, that driver is being paid to drive work colleagues about using D1 101(same as me), the passengers aren't fare paying (nor are mine), he's within the law as long as he has done his CPC.

So I need to be put through DCPC, simple as that (?).

Please note- I'm not saying I know best, 'cos clearly I don't. Two days ago I'd barely heard of Driver Certificate of Professional Competence!

Last edited by unoriginalusername (12-04-15 14:36:52)

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#29 12-04-15 16:07:13

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: D1 101 Help please!

I think your answer above sums it up nicely.

I'll add a few points to the debate.
1. Were you driving professionally and carrying fare paying passengers then then you would require full D1 and DCPC. I think we're all agreed on that. The minibus would require an Operators Licence. Look for a circular disc on the nearside of the windscreen. Your employer would hold the licence. I doubt you'll have one but it clears up the full D1 bit - unless your total outfit is illegal smile

2. I'll presume you are not the owner of the minibus - your employers are. Therefore that makes them equally liable for any offence you commit. It is an offence for an employer to cause or permit a driver who needs a Driver CPC or Driver Qualification Card (DQC) to drive without one. Fixed penalties for employers of £1,000 per offence for failing to comply with the Driver CPC regulations i.e. a driver failing to carry a valid Driver CPC Driver Qualification Card. The driver also receives a fine from £30 - £240 which doubles with any subsequent offences. That now puts pressure on your manager(s).

3. Perhaps the most important one. How many passengers do you carry? Do you need a minibus? How about downsizing to a 9 seater (8 passengers). It can be driven on a B licence, and that takes you out of both the 101 restriction and the need for CPC.

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#30 12-04-15 17:41:16

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,656

Re: D1 101 Help please!

unoriginalusername wrote:

On my license, for D1 there IS an entitlement, albeit with a restriction code of 101. So I CAN drive it, as long as it's not for hire or reward. Why would I require a provisional for something I've already got?

Because the DVLA say you do.

If you want to sit the test to remove the 101 restriction you need to apply for the provisional entitlement which requires having a medical.

You were granted entitlement to drive the D1 vehicle on the basis of passing a car test, which does not require a medical examination.

People driving large heavy vehicles full of people need to meet higher medical standards so they don't kill people.


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#31 13-04-15 14:34:40

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

trunkmonkey-

Thanks for your points, I didn't realize that my employer would also be liable, gives me a bit more ammo! To be fair to them, no-one is being forced to drive the minibus now.... though still being asked!

Their best option, as you've suggested, is to replace the 17-seater with a couple of 9-seaters. We already have one van like this. I can't see them paying to put some of us through DCPC, but we'll see.

I've received an email from DVLA, giving 'clarification' on this D1 101 issue, says about 'hire and reward' being open to interpretation (by a court), etc- its deliberately vague, and of no real help.

What they really want is for people to go and do full D1 (which is fine reddragonbus, I don't want to kill people).

DVLA- "So you want to hire a minibus to drive some friends and family to the coast? Yeah, that's fine as a one off"

DVLA-" So, your employer wants you to use that D1 (101) that we gave you all them years ago? Er, we'd rather you didn't, it's all up to the courts to decide, over the phone we'll say 'no' but then you'll see an example on GOV/DVLA website about farm labourers, um....do your CPC".

Sorry, just irritates me that DVLA can't give a straight Yes or No answer. I'd be fine with No, I don't particularly care whether I drive the minibus or not BUT I do want to be legal if I do so.

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#32 14-04-15 13:16:13

Fulton
Member
Registered: 19-02-15
Posts: 27

Re: D1 101 Help please!

unoriginalusername wrote:

trunkmonkey-

I've received an email from DVLA, giving 'clarification' on this D1 101 issue, says about 'hire and reward' being open to interpretation (by a court), etc- its deliberately vague, and of no real help.

That sums it up then, surely as your being paid while driving passengers about a Court would naturally judge that as for hire or reward of which your not licensed to do smile

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#33 14-04-15 14:02:29

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

reddragonbus

I looked at your location, thought about recent tragic events involving the bin-wagon which occurred in your neck of the woods, I can see why you would have strong views regarding medicals, training, etc.

So I apologise if I came across as flippant or slightly sarcastic. Sorry.

I've now emailed CPCRE@dsa.gsi.gov.uk about all this, awaiting their response. I'll try VOSA next.

Keep you posted.

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#34 14-04-15 21:19:00

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Fulton wrote:
unoriginalusername wrote:

trunkmonkey-

I've received an email from DVLA, giving 'clarification' on this D1 101 issue, says about 'hire and reward' being open to interpretation (by a court), etc- its deliberately vague, and of no real help.

That sums it up then, surely as your being paid while driving passengers about a Court would naturally judge that as for hire or reward of which your not licensed to do smile

'Hire or reward' is a vehicle which is operated where the passengers pay a fare to use the vehicle or a contribution is made towards the running costs of using the vehicle. Incidental minibus drivers eg teachers etc can be paid for driving.

Further info on the definition of 'hire or reward' here in section 3, (though this case would be ineligible for a section 19 permit)

Hire or Reward

Last edited by RobC (14-04-15 21:29:21)


www.midasbustraining.webs.com
Midas Minibus Driver Assessor Trainer & Passenger Assistant Trainer
DVSA Fleet Registered Trainer

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#35 14-04-15 23:14:37

Fulton
Member
Registered: 19-02-15
Posts: 27

Re: D1 101 Help please!

RobC wrote:
Fulton wrote:
unoriginalusername wrote:

trunkmonkey-

I've received an email from DVLA, giving 'clarification' on this D1 101 issue, says about 'hire and reward' being open to interpretation (by a court), etc- its deliberately vague, and of no real help.

That sums it up then, surely as your being paid while driving passengers about a Court would naturally judge that as for hire or reward of which your not licensed to do smile

'Hire or reward' is a vehicle which is operated where the passengers pay a fare to use the vehicle or a contribution is made towards the running costs of using the vehicle. Incidental minibus drivers eg teachers etc can be paid for driving.

Further info on the definition of 'hire or reward' here in section 3, (though this case would be ineligible for a section 19 permit)

Hire or Reward

So how exactly does a teacher who is being paid to drive a minibus with passengers manage to comply with the conditions below while having no permit and code 101 on their licence ? roll

https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus

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#36 15-04-15 08:10:13

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Fulton wrote:

So how exactly does a teacher who is being paid to drive a minibus with passengers manage to comply with the conditions below while having no permit and code 101 on their licence ? roll

https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus

This = https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s … ibuses.pdf


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#37 15-04-15 13:37:46

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

The debate continues!

Quantum physics is possibly easier to grasp, though they say if you think you understand it, then you definitely don't.

One minute I think, hmm, my passengers aren't paying a fare, so it's not for hire or reward.

Then I think, hmmm, but I am driving for a wage and for a commercial outfit, that could easily be interpreted that I need full D1.

DVLA themselves have advised that it would be down to a court to pass a judgement on this issue, crazy really.

My managers still say, "Yes you can drive it, so drive it"- they know I have no CPC, they argue I don't need one!

I'm wondering if you can voluntarily 'give up' a category on your license? I definitely couldn't be forced to drive the thing then, I get the same (poor) wage as my passengers, so there's no financial loss if I did.

I'm serious about that last point, btw.

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#38 15-04-15 14:19:14

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,656

Re: D1 101 Help please!

The bottom line is this.....

It is your driving licence, so you decide whether to use it or not, employers don't have any right to force you to drive the vehicle. If you are prosecuted it is you that will receive the points, fine, ban etc etc.

The DVLA simply pass on the information, they have no say in the way the law is written.

In 1997 the European union introduced new laws throughout Europe so that all member states have harmonized driving licence entitlements.

The UK government have their own interpretation of certain laws and have said that in the UK they will honour entitlements issued prior the harmonization in 1997, ultimately it is up to a court to make a ruling, this would require a test case which would cause a massive head ache for many many people, so they are leaving it well alone.

Eventually a school minibus will crash and 16 kids will die, the government will have a knee jerk reaction to it, the media will have an outcry and the public will demand answers.

D1 101 entitlement is designed to allow people to drive a minibus on a voluntary basis or for their own private purposes. It is actually little different from the ability to drive a minibus on a category B licence, other than the vehicles weight restriction imposed on category B.


As I mentioned before to drive a vehicle full of passengers in a professional capacity you must meet higher medical standards than that of a car licence holder.


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#39 15-04-15 16:50:15

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,302

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Hi
Those of us with acquired  rights to drive D1s can be paid if the vehicle is being run under a section 19 small bus permit, these can issued to schools, colleges, and other organisations where the passengers are directly connected to the organisation and the organisation is "Not for Profit"; ie I can't carry and be paid anyone unconnected to the college for which I work.
Post '96 drivers can only carry passengers if they are volunteers, the question is if they didn't work for the school/college etc would they be driving the minibus?  The answer is almost certainly NO.
The OPs company is surely not "Not for Profit" so shouldn't qualify for a sect 19.

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#40 16-04-15 13:41:24

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: D1 101 Help please!

It might help if you separate the minibus from the driver and look at the minibus.

16 seats and carries employees around site. Do the employees, who are passengers, pay to be carried?
If the answer is No then the vehicle is not used for hire or reward.

Now look at the driver

The driver holds a D1. This part of the licence allows him to drive a minibus. It has a (101) restriction. This part says he cannot drive a minibus being used for hire or reward. It is irrelevant if he is paid the 101 does not refer to a driver being paid or driving as a volunteeer, it refers only to the use of the vehice.

DVSA in their wisdom have said that because username is driving a minibus and is employed as a driver, even though it is not a hire or reward enterprise, he needs CPC. There has been discussion on what he needs.

I received this yesterday from JAUPT:

Since the acquired rights deadline has passed DVSA has received requests from members of the public, who wish to return to vocational driving, asking how they can obtain a DQC.  DVSA has considered these requests in the context of the government’s desire to support driver recruitment and reduce the potential burden to the industry and has decided that they will now allow drivers with a full licence to gain their first DQC via either periodic training or completion of modules two and four. For further information on modules two and four please visit: gov.uk
This provision will apply to a driver’s first DQC only - any subsequent renewal will require periodic training to be completed. DVSA envisages this will have very limited impact on approved trainers and anticipate as more drivers enter the industry the demand for Driver CPC periodic training will ultimately be increased.

This email was sent on behalf of the Driver & Vehicle Standards Agency(DVSA)

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#41 16-04-15 15:42:18

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

From an email received from CPC R&E section, DVSA.

"As such we believe that you would need an unrestricted D1 license and a Driver CPC in order to do this."

I'd explained what we do with the minibus.

"we believe that".....makes all the difference to this statement. As reddragonbus said, it would all come down to a judgement from the Courts.

Oh and just twigged VOSA are the DVSA.....ops (failed on observations).

Last edited by unoriginalusername (16-04-15 16:09:42)

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#42 16-04-15 22:11:09

Fulton
Member
Registered: 19-02-15
Posts: 27

Re: D1 101 Help please!

trunkmonkey wrote:

The driver holds a D1. This part of the licence allows him to drive a minibus. It has a (101) restriction. This part says he cannot drive a minibus being used for hire or reward. It is irrelevant if he is paid the 101 does not refer to a driver being paid or driving as a volunteeer, it refers only to the use of the vehicle.

The company on behalf of the passengers indirectly pays the driver to drive about the paid employees for the benefit of the business, its not a charity run minibus that the employees are running about on for free. I wouldn't like to be the one to convince a court that was irrelevant smile

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#43 17-04-15 12:39:42

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Afternoon all

Thanks for your continued interest/posts.

I think Trunkmonkey and Fulton have BOTH made valid points there, we could argue the toss ad infinitum.

So, slightly different question for you all, what would YOU do if you were in my current situation? Would you drive it, or not?

Remember, I just have D1 101 (obtained through car test pre-1997) and NO drivers CPC.

Cheers guys.

Last edited by unoriginalusername (17-04-15 12:49:52)

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#44 17-04-15 13:10:19

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,656

Re: D1 101 Help please!

I personally would not drive a vehicle if I believe I am not licenced to drive it, I rely on my licence for my lively hood so I cannot afford to lose it.

Driving without the correct entitlement invalidates the insurance cover which carries 9 penalty points, so it is entirely possible to be banned from driving.


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#45 17-04-15 16:36:18

Fulton
Member
Registered: 19-02-15
Posts: 27

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Based even on the responsibility of 16 people and their safety you have so much to loose if anything were to happen, not surprising but I wouldn't drive the minibus if I were you. Me personally I have a full stick licence and CPC card from years of Coach driving  smile

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#46 18-04-15 11:13:01

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: D1 101 Help please!

And I have the same on my licence too.

I agree that the belt and braces approach is full D1 and CPC. No arguments there.  I'll go with the flow, but one point;


This is from the gov.uk website relating to Exemptions from CPC;

Driver C drives a minibus under a D1 (101 - Not for Hire or Reward) driving licence, transporting farm labourers around a farm on public roads between fields. They need Driver CPC as it’s not non-commercial carriage of passengers for personal use.However, Driver C has ‘acquired rights’ so they won’t need to pass the Driver CPC initial qualification. They will need to complete 35 hours of periodic training by 10 September 2013 and every 5 years thereafter.

Is there a difference between Driver C and the OP and the job both do?

How can driver C legally drive on a 101?



If as you say in #42 about indirect payment to the driver by the company then you are saying this is a commercial enterprise. If that's the case I go back to my original post and say the vehicle needs an O licence, taxed at PCV rate, tacho (or Domestic Hours), full D1 and DQC. That's opening a can of worms.

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#47 18-04-15 11:29:29

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101 Help please!

trunkmonkey wrote:

And I have the same on my licence too.

I agree that the belt and braces approach is full D1 and CPC. No arguments there.  I'll go with the flow, but one point;


This is from the gov.uk website relating to Exemptions from CPC;

Driver C drives a minibus under a D1 (101 - Not for Hire or Reward) driving licence, transporting farm labourers around a farm on public roads between fields. They need Driver CPC as it’s not non-commercial carriage of passengers for personal use.However, Driver C has ‘acquired rights’ so they won’t need to pass the Driver CPC initial qualification. They will need to complete 35 hours of periodic training by 10 September 2013 and every 5 years thereafter.

Is there a difference between Driver C and the OP and the job both do?

How can driver C legally drive on a 101?



If as you say in #42 about indirect payment to the driver by the company then you are saying this is a commercial enterprise. If that's the case I go back to my original post and say the vehicle needs an O licence, taxed at PCV rate, tacho (or Domestic Hours), full D1 and DQC. That's opening a can of worms.

There is no difference between driver C and what the OP does which is why I posted that extract earlier

It clearly states and agrees with what I said - the OP can transport fellow workers around the airport on his D1 101 but needs DCPC


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#48 18-04-15 14:57:21

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

ROG and trunkmonkey

I'll ask again, would you drive it were you in my position? I'm not trying to catch people out, btw.

I've emailed legaladvice@abd.org.uk with my original post, see what they say.

The easiest way for my employer to solve this is to get shot of the minibus, or get agency staff with full D1 and CPC.

But then, do we need O license, as trunkmonkey says....

Does it ever end?!

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#49 18-04-15 15:50:11

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Here's a thought,


In the 'driver c transports farm labourers....' example, WHO is driver c?

If it's the farm owner, who's rented a minibus and is not charging the labourers for a ride, that's fine. Wouldn't even need CPC (?).

If driver c is one of the labourers, being paid by the farmer to drive the minibus, could that be taken as for hire and reward?

Think about it, the farmer is saying "no charge guys, I'll pay the driver"...which means the driver is then getting an indirect payment from the passengers. Which is not allowed under code 101.

I'm being pedantic, but then court cases are quite often decided on pedantic points. Its one of the reasons why legal documentation has odd or missing punctuation, or so I've been told.

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#50 18-04-15 19:48:17

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: D1 101 Help please!

The last thing you are being is pedantic. You are being very diligent and asking questions your manager should be thinking about.

The 101 restriction has caused countless problems since it's introduction. Fortunately, for new drivers it is more clear cut.

The school teacher carrying school pupils is the classic. The teacher is paid to teach but also drives the school minibus on a 101. That is deemed acceptable.

I asked earlier, is your job description "Driver" ?  That could be important.

I know you've suggested VOSA. I would definitely find out your local office and either call them or arrange a site visit. VOSA work on the basis of being there to assist if asked but will enforce if they come across something.  I'm always on the phone to my local office.

Good luck with the ABD smile

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