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#1 10-04-15 17:26:09

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

D1 101 Help please!

Hello, hopefully someone can answer this? I work for a car park management company at a UK airport and sometimes use a 17 seat minibus to drive co-workers around the airport. I passed my car test before 1997 and have D1 with code 101. The airport roads are covered by by-laws, they're essentially private property that the public can use with consent from the airport owners.

Am I driving legally?


Thanks for any help!

Last edited by unoriginalusername (14-04-15 13:45:56)

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10-04-15 17:26:09

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Re: D1 101 Help please!



#2 10-04-15 17:37:23

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,303

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Hi
I would say NO.
None of the concessions allowing D1 driving by a non-vocational licence holder would seem to apply.
You are not working for a non-commercial organisation.
There is no likelihood that a section 19 permit would be issued.
Private roads they maybe but all normal traffic laws apply, the bye-laws are why your company is allowed to drive on them

Last edited by pegasus (10-04-15 17:39:25)

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#3 10-04-15 18:04:52

Fulton
Member
Registered: 19-02-15
Posts: 27

Re: D1 101 Help please!

unoriginalusername wrote:

Hello, hopefully someone can answer this? I work for a car park management company at a UK airport and sometimes use a 17 seat minibus to drive co-workers around the airport. I passed my car test before 1997 and have D1 with code 101. The airport roads are covered by by-laws, they're essentially private property that the public can use with consent from the airport owners.

Am I driving legally?

I could ask management, but I'd rather have the truth...

Thanks for any help!

D1 is up to 16 passengers, 101 is not for hire or reward and do you have a CPC card ?, your definitely driving illegally roll

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#4 10-04-15 18:05:11

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Thanks, that was a quick reply!

I didn't realise just how complex the regulations are regarding minibus driving (Your Honour).

It's strange, but when we originally started using a 17 seater, they had one of the bus drivers come over to drive it, but now they stick anyone with a D1 in it. Makes one wonder, eh?

Anyone got any other views, advice? It's much appreciated, thanks. smile

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#5 10-04-15 18:15:14

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Just to be clear, it's 17 seat including driver (16 passengers).

Charming of the management to get us driving it, I'll be generous and say they just don't know that I/We need PCV.

It'll be me gets in the doo-dah, won't it?

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#6 10-04-15 18:20:16

Fulton
Member
Registered: 19-02-15
Posts: 27

Re: D1 101 Help please!

unoriginalusername wrote:

Just to be clear, it's 17 seat including driver (16 passengers).

Charming of the management to get us driving it, I'll be generous and say they just don't know that I/We need PCV.

It'll be me gets in the doo-dah, won't it?

If they are happy to see you break the law they likely will see you loose your licence and then sack you before they admit responsibility neutral

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#7 10-04-15 18:53:01

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Fulton wrote:
unoriginalusername wrote:

Just to be clear, it's 17 seat including driver (16 passengers).

Charming of the management to get us driving it, I'll be generous and say they just don't know that I/We need PCV.

It'll be me gets in the doo-dah, won't it?

If they are happy to see you break the law they likely will see you loose your licence and then sack you before they admit responsibility neutral

Sadly, I think you're right.

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#8 10-04-15 19:56:33

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,656

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Are you driving air side or land side?


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#9 11-04-15 05:48:23

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101 Help please!

If not on public roads then its LEGAL and you do not need tacho dcpc or anything else

In fact if classed as private roads you do not need any licence but by laws might usurp that


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#10 11-04-15 07:13:21

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,303

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Hi

(ROG) wrote:

If not on public roads then its LEGAL and you do not need tacho dcpc or anything else

In fact if classed as private roads you do not need any licence but by laws might usurp that

Privately owned but with public access (see OP), normal traffic laws apply re licencing, this discussion has been had before with reference to "off road" driving for under age learners

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#11 11-04-15 08:07:12

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101 Help please!

pegasus wrote:

Hi

(ROG) wrote:

If not on public roads then its LEGAL and you do not need tacho dcpc or anything else

In fact if classed as private roads you do not need any licence but by laws might usurp that

Privately owned but with public access (see OP), normal traffic laws apply re licencing, this discussion has been had before with reference to "off road" driving for under age learners

Are barriers fitted because that is where the legal barrier defines private from public

A private airfield fitted with barriers (open or closed) allowing the public to use it is defined as private - a non driver can play with an artic in such a place

There could be different definitions for general airports such as heathrow etc but would need to see the by-laws for those to determine what if any the differences are


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#12 11-04-15 09:19:03

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Morning all,

Thanks for replies.

The airport roads that we use are landside, there are no barriers (open or closed), in fact unless you were very observant you would not know that you had left "public" road and were on "airport" roads. There are small A4 sized signs at the side of the roads detailing by-laws.

In other words, I am mixing with all other road users.

I think I need to read those by-laws!

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#13 11-04-15 09:52:27

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101 Help please!

unoriginalusername wrote:

Morning all,

Thanks for replies.

The airport roads that we use are landside, there are no barriers (open or closed), in fact unless you were very observant you would not know that you had left "public" road and were on "airport" roads. There are small A4 sized signs at the side of the roads detailing by-laws.

In other words, I am mixing with all other road users.

I think I need to read those by-laws!

In that case the licence laws are the same as for the public roads

So now I go to whether you are ok on your 101 and I need to ask a question -
Do those you are carrying pay in any way for the ride in the minibus ?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#14 11-04-15 09:56:35

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101 Help please!

RE DCPC
https://www.gov.uk/driver-cpc-exemptions-examples
Driver C drives a minibus under a D1 (101 - Not for Hire or Reward) driving licence, transporting farm labourers around a farm on public roads between fields.
They need Driver CPC as it’s not non-commercial carriage of passengers for personal use.

Change farm labourers for airport workers and you get a definitive answer for the licence and the DCPC

Last edited by (ROG) (11-04-15 09:58:22)


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#15 11-04-15 11:27:54

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Hi ROG,

No, the guys I am transporting do not pay to use the minibus, they are paid employee's.

As I see it, I am being paid (i.e. "rewarded") to drive the minibus, therefore I should not be driving it on D1 code 101 (not for hire or reward).

I don't have tacho card, I don't have drivers CPC.

Therefore, I would be driving otherwise in accordance with my license and therefore would not be insured, either...

Now, I dare say people drive like this for years, with no problems- until they have an accident, police, DVLA, VOSA, etc get involved and then it all hits the fan.

I think my best bet is to refuse to drive it until confirmed in writing that I can. What do you think?

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#16 11-04-15 11:41:51

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101 Help please!

unoriginalusername wrote:

Hi ROG,

No, the guys I am transporting do not pay to use the minibus, they are paid employee's.

As I see it, I am being paid (i.e. "rewarded") to drive the minibus, therefore I should not be driving it on D1 code 101 (not for hire or reward).

I don't have tacho card, I don't have drivers CPC.

Therefore, I would be driving otherwise in accordance with my license and therefore would not be insured, either...

Now, I dare say people drive like this for years, with no problems- until they have an accident, police, DVLA, VOSA, etc get involved and then it all hits the fan.

I think my best bet is to refuse to drive it until confirmed in writing that I can. What do you think?

The H&W refers to paying passengers hence the exemptions as stated in that Gov link I quoted

You being paid makes it commercial (DCPC) but not H&W (paying passengers)

You can still drive it legally as long as you have a current DCPC DQC

Last edited by (ROG) (11-04-15 11:50:06)


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#17 11-04-15 11:52:48

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Went through this recently with the probation service contractors who were driving minibuses on D1 101 to transport non fare paying people to various places to do their community service as per the courts

They were ok on the D1 101 but needed DCPC


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#18 11-04-15 12:09:51

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101 Help please!

I found this on H&W

A vehicle which is operated for hire or reward is one where payment is made, in cash or in kind, for the carrying of passengers, or matters which include the carrying of passengers, irrespective of the person to whom the payment is made. This includes direct payments such as a fare or an indirect payment which gives a person an opportunity to travel. It does not matter whether or not the operator is a profit-making entity. A minibus is used for hire or reward if there is a clear and logical link between payment and the transport provided and that link is not too remote.


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#19 11-04-15 13:42:15

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Quick update- I've just rang DVLA, asked can I drive co-workers around in a minibus on my D1 101, told emphatically NO. I then said about the 'private' roads open to public bit, the advisor went off to check, came back with the same answer- NO.

That will do me.

Thanks for people taking time out of their day to help and post, it's appreciated.

I'll see what response I get at work when I refuse to drive it, maybe post an update.

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#20 11-04-15 16:04:58

Lewinpeter1
Verified Member
From: Morpeth,Northumberland
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 803
Website

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Hi
The problem arises because if you rang again on Monday morning you would probably get a completely different answer!!!
Glad I just teach L- plates tongue
Peter


Dont press that,oh @@##!

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#21 11-04-15 16:21:37

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Lewinpeter1

Yes, I did get that feeling, tbh. Why does everything have to be so bleeding complicated?

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#22 11-04-15 17:34:11

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101 Help please!

NEVER accept verbal answers from DVLA - ALWAYS Email them - google - email dvla

I learned that the hard way


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#23 11-04-15 18:37:01

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Cheers ROG,

Yes, I had already emailed DVLA, automated response told me I can expect an answer within 3 days.

I'm thinking now that IF the company I work for put me through driver CPC, then I could drive minibus. My logic is that I have D1 entitlement on my license (given when I passed car test in 1991), so wouldn't need to do a test in a minibus, I'd just need to do the DCPC part.

My logic may be faulty, mind...!

What are the penalties for driving without valid DCPC, please?

Just noticed my C1 entitlement doesn't have any codes after it, seems a bit odd...?

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#24 11-04-15 19:17:36

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

The mists are clearing a little- just found some quite useful info on the DSA, sorry, DVSA/GOV website. Basically, I should have already done some of the CPC, I have acquired rights so I need not do the initial part, but I should have done some by now.

Penalty for driving without Drivers Certificate of Professional Competence £1000 fine, which would be down to me to pay.

I can now see why the managers have kept quiet about this- Me and some of my colleagues carry on driving the minibuses, un-aware of the CPC requirements, taking the risk of the fine and they haven't had to pay for any additional training and the work still gets done- win win for them.

I'm learning ROG, I'm learning!

Last edited by unoriginalusername (11-04-15 20:33:39)

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#25 11-04-15 21:42:40

Fulton
Member
Registered: 19-02-15
Posts: 27

Re: D1 101 Help please!

I may not be correct but if you carry 16 passengers and are being paid for doing so your not licenced to do so as code 101 is not for hire or reward, 35 hours to obtain a drivers CPC card will set your company (or you) back £500 and the acquired rights are long past and don't apply to you  smile

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