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#1 21-12-14 12:50:14

Merlin
Member
Registered: 21-12-14
Posts: 26

D1 101

Hi, my first post!

Is there anyone out there who can give me some advice please:

I work for a Probation Trust as a supervisor and I am paid for this employment. It is part of my job to drive minibuses, up to 16 passengers, with a trailer containing tools etc to various worksites so my passengers can carry out unpaid work as part of a Court sentence.

I passed my test pre 1997 so have the D1E but with the code 101. I realise this is not for hire or reward. The Probation Trust I work for operate about 20 vehicles and there are no Section 19 permits in use.

Am I legally entitled to drive these minibuses and receive a salary for doing so. I have searched the internet time and time again with no definitive answer!

Thanks

Big J

Last edited by Merlin (21-12-14 14:12:32)

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21-12-14 12:50:14

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Re: D1 101




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#2 21-12-14 14:13:18

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101

Is the probation trust a registered charity?

http://www.ctauk.org/training/who-can-d … nibus.aspx

As you say there are no section 19 permits then I fail to see how you can legally drive it commercially with a 101 in which case you need full D1 with a valid PCV driver cpc DQC card

https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus

Last edited by (ROG) (21-12-14 14:20:47)


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#3 21-12-14 14:18:40

Merlin
Member
Registered: 21-12-14
Posts: 26

Re: D1 101

No, and on 1st February we will be privatised and the Company running us will no longer be the Probation Service but a for profit private company.

Thanks

Big J

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#4 21-12-14 14:21:46

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101

Merlin wrote:

No, and on 1st February we will be privatised and the Company running us will no longer be the Probation Service but a for profit private company.

Thanks

Big J

Deffo full PCV D1 and DQC needed in that case


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#5 21-12-14 14:25:57

Merlin
Member
Registered: 21-12-14
Posts: 26

Re: D1 101

Thanks. Does the salary  paid to me by my employer count as the reward, as in hire or reward, or am I confusing the issue?

Thanks

Big J

I have spoken with half my work colleagues who all have 101 on their licences.

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#6 21-12-14 14:26:20

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101

If you do go for the D1 or D test then tick C & D only on the D2 form

If you do not already have DQC then you will have a choice - either do the 35 hours periodic dcpc or the 2 initial modules 2 and 4
Personally I would do the 35 hours as it will cover both PCV & your current LGV C1


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LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#7 21-12-14 14:29:18

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101

Merlin wrote:

Thanks. Does the salary  paid to me by my employer count as the reward, as in hire or reward, or am I confusing the issue?

Thanks

Big J

I have spoken with half my work colleagues who all have 101 on their licences.

The word you need to consider is COMMERCIAL

IS THE MINIBUS BEING USED FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES? = THE COMPANY ARE MAKING OR INTENDING TO MAKE A PROFIT? or are using it to advertise a business?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#8 21-12-14 14:29:28

Merlin
Member
Registered: 21-12-14
Posts: 26

Re: D1 101

Thanks that's really helpful. What is a DQC?

Thanks again

Big J

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#9 21-12-14 14:31:30

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101

Merlin wrote:

Thanks that's really helpful. What is a DQC?

Thanks again

Big J

DQC = Driver Qualification Card or driver cpc card which all commercial PCV & LGV must have in order to drive commercially


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#10 21-12-14 14:48:37

Merlin
Member
Registered: 21-12-14
Posts: 26

Re: D1 101

Thanks, all depends if our current employer is considered commercial, questions tomorrow.

Thanks for the help

Big J

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#11 21-12-14 17:25:01

Merlin
Member
Registered: 21-12-14
Posts: 26

Re: D1 101

Hi just one further question:

If the company I work for at present is considered non commercial can I be paid to drive legally when there is no section 19 permit in place? They are not a registered charity but I am not sure regarding any profit made from the operation.

Thanks

Big J

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#12 22-12-14 10:06:15

Merlin
Member
Registered: 21-12-14
Posts: 26

Re: D1 101

I have just spoken with a very helpful person at the DVSA. I told her my licence details and the work I am employed to do, she confirmed I must do some of the CPC qualification. If I did continue to drive at work  I would be breaking the law. That's a day of tomorrow then !!

Thanks

Big J

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#13 22-12-14 13:27:24

Merlin
Member
Registered: 21-12-14
Posts: 26

Re: D1 101

Just spoke with my boss who ranted on a bit and then said 'Our vehicles are vans anyway we have just fitted 9 passenger seats in them so we are OK'

*&%^(*&%(*&^%(^%&  was my reply.

Big J

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#14 22-12-14 16:31:14

Merlin
Member
Registered: 21-12-14
Posts: 26

Re: D1 101

As my boss has now had a bit of a rant at me I decided to look at other possible problems. Our minibuses apart from one 17 seater, are all Ford Transits with the back row of seats removed leaving 7 passengers in the rear and two in the front. A fixed bulkhead has been built in so we can carry tools, strimmers petrol etc in the back.

I pointed out that the rear passengers must have access to 2 doors, one service door and one emergency door, He fobbed it off saying as there are only 7 seats in the back just having the side door is fine, I disagreed but he would not accept my point.

Am I right in my assumption that even with 7 seats in the back there must be two doors. Can anyone point me to the relevant legislation so I can pass it onto him?

Thanks again

Big J

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#15 22-12-14 18:10:52

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,302

Re: D1 101

Hi
Have the ones with seats removed been de-registered as minibuses?
If not then surely they are still minibuses and carry the same need for a minibus class MoT and all other minibus legal restrictions.

Use https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-tax to check the vehicle status for yourself, you will find the vehicle type near the bottom of the results page.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/d … gories.asp
Gives

Definition of vehicle categories
1. Extracted from 2007/46/EC as last amended by 385/2009)
Vehicle categories are defined according to the following classification: (Where reference is made to "maximum mass" in the following definitions, this means "technically permissible maximum laden mass" as specified in item 2.8 of Annex I of the above Directive.)

Category M: Motor vehicles with at least four wheels designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers.

Category M1: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers and comprising no more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat.
Category M2: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers, comprising more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and having a maximum mass not exceeding 5 tonnes.
Category M3: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers, comprising more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and having a maximum mass exceeding 5 tonnes.
The types of bodywork and codifications pertinent to the vehicles of category M are defined in Part C of this Annex paragraph 1 (vehicles of category M1) and paragraph 2 (vehicles of categories M2 and M3) to be used for the purpose specified in that Part.

Last edited by pegasus (22-12-14 18:12:12)

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#16 22-12-14 18:33:15

Merlin
Member
Registered: 21-12-14
Posts: 26

Re: D1 101

Is it possible to de register a 10 seater, 9 +1, to anything other than a minibus. They started life as vans the seats were put in by a previous owner, 14 I think, and my company has just removed the back row, put in a bulk head and used the space for tools.

If it has 9 passenger seats what else can it be registered as? I think they come under M2?

Thanks

Big J

EDIT   I have just checked the one I normally drive, 9 passenger seats plus driver and the vehicle  type approval is shown as N1 •Category N1: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3,5 tonnes

Can this be right ?

Last edited by Merlin (22-12-14 18:56:00)

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#17 22-12-14 19:22:54

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,302

Re: D1 101

Hi
Well,, I had missed the 9 passenger seats bit.
That means it should be an M2, sounds like the registration wasn't changed when the seats were put in.
It certainly can't be treated as a people carrier because that is a 9 seater including driver.

I think you might need knowledgeable advice from a specialist lawyer in motoring LAW, as driver you are responsible and it sounds as if the vehicle operator is out of compliance with a number of laws.

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#18 22-12-14 20:00:26

Merlin
Member
Registered: 21-12-14
Posts: 26

Re: D1 101

Is this illegal? We have had the vehicle for at least 8 years and I have not noticed before. I would imagine the other 2 we have are the same. I have refused to drive until the D1E 101 is sorted out but the question of vehicle type and emergency exits needs clarifying. Is there anyone/organisation I can contact who will speak to my company and sort it out, they do not believe me when I give them the facts. I don't suppose the local Constabulary will have the necessary expertise to help. Any ideas. If I don't work then I get no pay so a quick resolution would be good.

Thanks

Big J

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#19 23-12-14 07:05:06

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101

To see what it is currently classed as such as M2 try this https://www.vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/ and scroll down to bottom when you get the result

Vehicle classes = http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/d … gories.asp

The DVLA will tell you what licence is required when you have the result but always Email them = https://emaildvla.direct.gov.uk/emaildv … le_10.html

You will then have everything in writing


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#20 23-12-14 16:29:47

Merlin
Member
Registered: 21-12-14
Posts: 26

Re: D1 101

Thanks for the help  !!

DVSA emailed me the email was ambiguous in its wording over hire and reward, DVLA got back to v quick the same ambiguous wording. My boss will not accept we operate the minibuses for hire or reward even though I am paid to do so, its in my job description, so says we are exempt from any CPC training. I will not drive illegally, clean licence after 45 years driving so I really have to think about leaving. Has anyone any contacts in VOSA? who may be interested.

Thanks

Big J

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#21 23-12-14 18:59:20

Merlin
Member
Registered: 21-12-14
Posts: 26

Re: D1 101

I have just received a further e mail from DVSA after asking them to clarify the hire and reward part{

Dear Mr Lee

Thank you for your email dated 23 December.
If you are being paid to drive the vehicle you are receiving a ‘reward’, so this would mean your current licence is not suitable due to having the ‘not for hire or reward’ 101 restriction.
Therefore if you are going to be getting paid to do this particular job, you’d need to follow Catherine’s advice in the previous email to take the test and remove the restriction.
Please contact us again should you have any further enquiries.


Just to confirm we have 4 minibuses, 3, 9 +1 seats and the 4th 16 +1 seats. Seems pretty conclusive but my employer will not accept it. I will now have to contact our union rep to take it further.

Does having a hammer in the van really do away with a need for the emergency exit?

Thanks Big J

Why are things like this so so difficult to sort out. I have spent many hours over the last 4 days trying to find the information.

Last edited by Merlin (23-12-14 20:10:20)

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#22 23-12-14 21:34:43

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101

That letter is legally incorrect because a council worker can get paid for reward to drive a minibus when the minibus is under a community exemption but I suppose it is an over sight on their part in not including that caveat


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#23 24-12-14 09:40:13

Merlin
Member
Registered: 21-12-14
Posts: 26

Re: D1 101

(ROG) wrote:

That letter is legally incorrect because a council worker can get paid for reward to drive a minibus when the minibus is under a community exemption but I suppose it is an over sight on their part in not including that caveat

I think they were replying to my specific circumstances, my employer not having any of the permits for the community scheme.

Thanks  Big J

PS Any thoughts of the safety hammer in lieu of an emergency exit?

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#24 24-12-14 13:50:39

Coasting Mart
Verified Member
Registered: 11-06-09
Posts: 967

Re: D1 101

Back in the late 80's, in a previous life as an outdoor management trainer (team building & the like) we had the same issues when Maggie introduced the legislation excluding hire & reward, and deregulating bus services.  We used to regularly hire minibuses for use on our courses, just to move clients from the accommodation to the lake or climbing crag. But because it was part of the service we charged a course fee for, then yes, it was for hire or reward.  To carry on hiring minibuses for use on courses we would have had to become a 'bus company'! Yes, we'd need a Transport Manager and apply to the Traffic Commissioners for a permit to operate and a whole host of other things, even though we weren't driving around picking up passengers.  And yes, drivers would need to get licenced.

The legislation has evolved since then I'm sure (CPD and stuff) but the basic hire & reward clause probably still applies to things like your work.  Your company is being paid to provide a service and you are driving clients professionally (for reward) and the whole point of the legislation is to ensure that anyone driving people professionally has had training, passed tests, and does the CPD stuff, and the vehicles are properly maintained and serviced. In many ways, a good idea!  For many small businesses - a real pain in the ass!  We stopped hiring minibuses - clients had to use their own or the participants own cars.

As Rog says, the only exception is for 'community' transport and voluntary/charitable purposes.
So, yes, I'd be surprised if you didn't need to remove the 101 restriction as I can't see how (esp when a private company takes over) you could not come under hire and reward.

I also agree that so much of this stuff is so very complicated and nobody official ever seems to be able to give a clear straight answer. Contacting a transport lawyer seems like the only possibility, perhaps through your Union as you say.  Good luck with it!  smile


"I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car"

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#25 01-01-15 09:18:23

Merlin
Member
Registered: 21-12-14
Posts: 26

Re: D1 101

Hi

Finally getting somewhere with my employer !!  Does anyone know if I have now lost my acquired rights?  I think if I read it right in the first 5 year period all I needed was to do the 35 hours periodic training and my D1E 101 was my DQC. Now we are into the second 5 year period how do I stand, can I still drive and just do the 35 hours during this period my licence as my DQC. Do I need to do something straight away before I can legally continue driving at work?

Thanks

Big J

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