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#1 20-08-14 10:50:42

quachhao
Member
Registered: 08-07-14
Posts: 12

Moving off from a stationary

Hello,

Please advise with the following situation:

I park my car on the left of the road and ready for moving off. After looking around, check mirror and blind spot, I see a car just behind me stopping. I decide to go so signal right to move off, but unfortunately at the same time the car behind me signaling to overtake. We are both reluctant for a while but then I decide to move on. And he horns at me. It is somewhat strange to me as we are both reluctant.

My question is: in that situation, should I wait until there is no car behind me to move off i.e. to patiently wait and allow them to overtake even if they are stopping at the time I check the mirror/blind spot? I know if the gap is safe then it is no problem but in this case the car is just behind me and it stops as well. I watch very frequently on the road that bus drivers do the same as I did above.

So, please help.

Best regards,
QH

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20-08-14 10:50:42

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Re: Moving off from a stationary



#2 20-08-14 12:15:00

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Moving off from a stationary

You don't say how far behind or what sort of speed the car behind was doing when you decided to go.


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#3 20-08-14 12:54:56

quachhao
Member
Registered: 08-07-14
Posts: 12

Re: Moving off from a stationary

Hi,

It is just about 10 meters behind and the car actually slowed down and stopped for a while. I saw it stopping when I decided to signal right but at the same time it signaled right to intend to overtake. I think it just about to move right with very very low speed.

Thanks,
QH

Last edited by quachhao (20-08-14 12:58:54)

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#4 20-08-14 17:59:14

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Moving off from a stationary

In a case of uncertainty like that, and because he was initially moving and you were parked,
I would have put my left indicator on and kept my foot on the brake to light my brake lights.

He then should get the message that you are staying put allowing him to proceed.

Don't however be inclined to wave him through. Let him or her make their own decision about proceeding, and they will.

The other thing that comes to mind, and you will know if this was so,
is that he could be slowing to let a car approach because there might not have been enough room for two to get through.

If you were concentrating on what the person behind was doing you may have missed the other person coming the other way.

I hope that helps.

Last edited by AUTAX (20-08-14 18:00:24)


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#5 21-08-14 10:50:19

quachhao
Member
Registered: 08-07-14
Posts: 12

Re: Moving off from a stationary

Hi Autax,

Thank you for your useful advice. Please help clarify few more questions, I am a bit confused with normal practice here as I am taking the test next month (I am driving a foreign license now):

- In the above situation, if I signal right to move off but then change my mind (e.g. because of potential hazard), cancel it (or signal left as you mentioned above) and wait (for safe) to do the procedure again: Is it a fail in the test?
- If I park on the left and keep signaling left until I signal right to move off - is that ok? I mean, I don't cancel the signal while parking on the road.

Many thanks,
QH

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#6 21-08-14 15:09:12

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Moving off from a stationary

If you start to signal and then realise your mistake, cancelling right away should not be classed as a serious fault.

For example if the examiner were to say at the roundabout take the first exit left and there was a junction
on your left before the roundabout which you hadn't seen because of parked cars, then you would probably
check mirrors and then signal left. As soon as you see the junction before the roundabout then
immediately cancel the indicator and reapply as you pass the junction.

There is no need to keep the left signal on waiting for a gap to pull out into. The reason for applying the left signal
was to tell the driver behind that you are staying put and for him to continue.
It was to tell the driver that you have changed your mind and for him to continue.

Drive well on your test. Let us know how you get on.

Peter.


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#7 21-08-14 20:37:28

richie1966
Verified Member
Registered: 11-01-12
Posts: 49

Re: Moving off from a stationary

With regards to giving a right signal when leaving the side of the road this should only be shown when you are happy it is safe to pull away i.e. AFTER the right blind spot check. Too often you see a car stopped on the LHS showing a right signal as the driver wants to pull away. When I see a driver doing just this I automatically assume the driver could pull out in front of me and so come off the gas just in case. So the action of the driver in parked car has caused me to change speed. If on a driving test you become a hazard ( and this is defined by your actions causing another road user to change speed or direction) you may well fail that test so only signal right when you are sure it is safe to pull away. I was told by my trainer the story of a pupil who failed their driving test because they gave a right signal when wishing to pull away but was not able to do so for 25 seconds. The examiner classed this as “aggressive signalling!” I tell this story to all my pupils to endorse the importance of giving a correct and appropriately timed signal. Hope this helps

Last edited by richie1966 (21-08-14 20:38:50)

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#8 22-08-14 14:05:54

quachhao
Member
Registered: 08-07-14
Posts: 12

Re: Moving off from a stationary

Thank you Autax and Richie - your advices are very useful to me for the test. In the case I mentioned above, I did check everything and saw the car slowing and stopping behind me. At this time, both waited for a while. Then I thought I could go so I signaled. But as I said, he signaled to overtake nearly at the same time as I did but perhaps he was a bit quicker than I about moving on so his car started moving right a bit. It was just a millisecond but I decided to go on and he horned at me.

Obviously, the ideal was that I canceled the signal and let him go. (I presume no automatic fail for cancelling signal in this case?). But my real concern is that if in a similar situation in the test, if the car behind slows down and stops, should I signal left to let him go or just wait (without signaling) until there is no car behind me? So, please help advise again (for test purpose). Does waiting while the car behind stopping result in a fail (because of undue hesitation)?

Thanks, QH

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#9 22-08-14 16:30:12

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Moving off from a stationary

A lot depends on the situation. If you are sat there without a signal then if the guy slows
it is probably for another reason; maybe giving way to an approaching car.

If it is not safe to go then the Examiner will see this also and expect you to wait until it is safe.
(S)he will not expect you to compromise yourself just to get out and if it's not safe to go then it isn't hesitation.

Like Ritchie says, the right signal should only go on when you see it's clear and you are going to go. It's the last thing you do before moving away.
I tell my pups that the right time to signal is when the clutch comes to the bite or they are beginning to press the gas pedal on my Automatic.


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#10 22-08-14 16:32:22

AUTAX
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Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Moving off from a stationary

Just to mention, when observing Glance don't Trance. In other words,
best to keep head and eyes moving updating what is happening in front
whilst waiting for what's behind to clear. Don't stare in one place continually.


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#11 22-08-14 17:29:11

quachhao
Member
Registered: 08-07-14
Posts: 12

Re: Moving off from a stationary

Hi Autax,
Thank you very much - it is very much clear now to me. I have one more question regarding the procedure of controlling the car when moving off. (i am driving an automatic car). My instructor tells me to follow these steps (i) gear ready; (ii) observations; (iii) signal; (iv) hand-brake down; (v) gas pedal to move off. In normal driving, I usually do (i), (iv), (ii), (iii) and (v) and even sometimes swap between (i) and (iv) in the first twp steps. Indeed I sometimes confused myself with the procedure. Is that any problem with this procedure? What should be the common procedure here in the UK that you normally do?
Thanks.
QH

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#12 22-08-14 19:19:45

Lewinpeter1
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From: Morpeth,Northumberland
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 803
Website

Re: Moving off from a stationary

Hi QH
From following this thread it seems clear to me you over analysing your driving.
To pass the test you need to drive competetently and confidently and be safe and legal.
Concentrate on what you should do and NOT on what you shouldn't.
Clearly you have been upset by what happened with your moving off with the car behind  but I wouldn't worry about  it too much.
My views are backed up by your next question about moving away and what order to do things in.
Well in my opinion you shouldn't need to even think about what  your feet are doing if  you are near your test!
My advice would be to relax and concentrate on situations,trust your instincts and just drive.
Good luck
Peter


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#13 22-08-14 23:20:29

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Moving off from a stationary

The best practice is foot on footbrake, select drive, release handbrake (unless an uphill start is required), observations and at the point you are ready to go then if you need a signal then do so as you squeeze the gas pedal.

When stopping at the side of the road or at traffic lights, stop the car on the foot brake then secure the car with the handbrake then neutralise the car.

To sum up, release handbrake after engaging gear and apply handbrake before neutral.  This is best practice but don't fret over it too much.

Driving an Automatic IS slightly different to a manual and needs to be thought about.


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#14 23-08-14 10:04:37

quachhao
Member
Registered: 08-07-14
Posts: 12

Re: Moving off from a stationary

Thank you Peter and Autax. I am preparing for the test in a month time so I want to build up my best practices and disciplines at the same time. Your advices are all useful to me. Thank you and will keep you updated on my progress. It's good for me to know this place as I am a foreigner and indeed in my country driving is very much different as I have to drive through a forest of motorbikes messing on the street everyday smile

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#15 23-08-14 11:23:35

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Moving off from a stationary

AUTAX wrote:

The best practice is foot on footbrake, select drive, release handbrake (unless an uphill start is required), observations and at the point you are ready to go then if you need a signal then do so as you squeeze the gas pedal.

When stopping at the side of the road or at traffic lights, stop the car on the foot brake then secure the car with the handbrake then neutralise the car.

To sum up, release handbrake after engaging gear and apply handbrake before neutral.  This is best practice but don't fret over it too much.

Driving an Automatic IS slightly different to a manual and needs to be thought about.

The timing of the handbrake release is interesting - I select D, hand to handbrake, cover the gas (as that's the next pedal I'll need), observations, (signal), release handbrake, add gas.
If the slope was sufficient to overcome the creep, with the handbrake already released, moving from the brake to gas would make the car roll back?  Already covering the gas allows any roll to be caught early?  So I have the same procedure for any start - if it was a definite hill start I could add gas prior to handbrake release.
But would an Examiner care either way, as long as the car didn't roll?

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#16 24-08-14 08:31:42

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Moving off from a stationary

I did mention "unless an uphill start is required".
Unless the uphill is very severe most automatics with creep
will hold the car momentarily whilst the foot is moved from the brake to the gas pedal.
Those without creep will normally employ hill start assist technology to prevent roll back.


Driver 99, do you teach in an Automatic?

Last edited by AUTAX (24-08-14 09:05:13)


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#17 24-08-14 16:38:17

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Moving off from a stationary

AUTAX wrote:

I did mention "unless an uphill start is required".
Unless the uphill is very severe most automatics with creep
will hold the car momentarily whilst the foot is moved from the brake to the gas pedal.
Those without creep will normally employ hill start assist technology to prevent roll back.


Driver 99, do you teach in an Automatic?

Thanks for replying - yes I've been teaching auto for a couple of months and interested in any variations on techniques.
I have a Yaris and it will roll back on steeper inclines (Pretty sure it doesn't have Hill Assist - if it does it's faulty!  Just checked Toyota site and the little Aygo has it but the Yaris doesn't?)

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#18 24-08-14 19:21:07

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Moving off from a stationary

When it comes to Hill starts I teach my students to use the handbrake to start against.

However, I am giving lessons to an American and the automatic cars he's driven
over the years have not have handbrakes but foot operated "emergency" brakes.
In fact the practice over there is to use the park position when parking and leaving the car.

Interesting because my 308 doesn't have a park position just R N & A (for avant).


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#19 24-08-14 23:49:58

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,690
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Re: Moving off from a stationary

Hi Autax, is the 308 a French car, I presume "Avant" is French for "mow down anyone who doesn't speak French"?
I didn't know some automatics don't have a Park position, is it the classic hydraulic torque converter transmission?

Australian Road Rules require cars to have the handbrake on when left unattended in a public place but P is used as well.
Despite my auto having a torquey engine and a strong creep, it will roll back momentarily on steep slopes.

Our examiners will ignore a 15cm or less rollback but I get my students to apply a little power just before releasing the hand brake.
It doesn't work on gentle slopes or flat ground*, because as soon as they touch the accelerator the car drives off as the handbrake wasn't applied.

I prefer my drivers to be in neutral when waiting at lights with the foot brake applied and preferably the handbrake on as well.
Footbrake because it's stronger than the handbrake and having the brake lights displayed is an advantage (no brakelight glare problem down here you see but rear-enders are common), handbrake so that if rear-ended the driver might release the foot brake but the handbrake will hold the car back to some extent, neutral because my auto doesn't need the button for a N to D shift so it's faster, and I'm not sure that being rear-ended and pushed forward while in P won't break the P mechanism (a pin jammed into a cog).

The biggest problem I have in teaching automatic is to convince learners to stay off the gas while parking, autos don't stall and my car has a very strong engine, it can leap backwards or forwards like a startled gazelle (2.4L engine in a light body).
One of our TC's has 90 degree bay parks on a steep slope facing the plate glass windows of the TC.
I'm surprised that to date no one driving forward into the bays has managed to mount the kerb and join the line-up in the office without leaving the driver's seat, because the locals tear around carparks like their pants are on fire.

You'd think that reversing out of these bays would be easy in an automatic but not necessarily so.
Many learners use gas to get the car moving but neglect to come off it when out of the park onto relatively flat ground, they are often taken by surprise when the car suddenly tries to surge backwards into cars parked behind.
(The car park is nasty, my parked car got lots of dents while I was inside the office. Along with no flat surface anywhere, narrow driveways waiting to fail a learner letting a rear wheel mount the kerb, sharply profiled speed-humps which can only be handled by a small car by zig-zagging across them, and an exit driveway shared with a busy service station, all ADIs now park their test candidates at a nearby docile car park. It's even nasty for pedestrians as the one narrow footpath on the side of the building has a large rock placed on it - I don't really know why, to keep cars of the footpath perhaps? - and the examiners are resigned to the short walk to the other car park (they park there themselves)).

* I recently sat in on a test where the designated hill for the uphill start was occupied with parked cars so it was done further up the road on flat ground.
The examiner reminded the surprised driver to "make sure the car doesn't roll back" (Ted has a sense of humour).
Examiners are as interested in the candidate moving off into traffic safely & legally as well as the car-control aspect of the manoeuvre, in fact the "Hill Start" has been changed to "Moving Off" on the marking sheet.


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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#20 25-08-14 05:29:58

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Moving off from a stationary

Good morning John, or is it afternoon? I think the latter.

Yes, my 308 is made by Peugeot and is a dream to drive. 1.6 Diesel Turbo 112BHP.
Really frugal around town on lessons but let her off the leash and she moves
with the grace of a gazelle and the speed of a greyhound.

The automatic model I have is the EGC 6 speed variant. Electronic Gear Change.
It has a conventional clutch and gearbox but the clutch operation and gear changes
are done electrically.

When the car is started, in Neutral and foot on the footbrake, the diesel engine
ticks over without hardly a sound and smooth as silk. Select A (I like your interpretation AKA Paris driving)
release the handbrake and.......nothing happens. The clutch is open. However the merest touch of the
gas pedal brings the clutch to the bite. no increase in revs just the bite. Enough to hold the car on an incline
but more of that later. Further pressure on the gas pedal brings up the revs and the car begins to move.

The beauty of this system, as one of my girls said once, was that the car moves when she tells it to not when it wants to go.
A real control freak she was and readily admits to that description.

The gearbox also has a Sport button. Pressing that allows for higher speed gear changes both up and down the box.
Ideal for quick getaways because in normal mode the gear changes are usually in the 10, 20, 30, 40 mph positions.

i also have up & down paddles behind the steering wheel so apart from a clutch pedal which isn't needed I have full
control over gear selection if I want when manual mode is selected. Obviously if the speed of the engine is reduced
to tick-over as I slow down then the downshift is carried out. Similarly if the speed approaches maximum revs then the box upshifts.

So, to hill starts. There is the conventional method of using the handbrake, select A, observations, slight pressure on the gas
to bring up the revs feeling the rear dip slightly and handbrake off.

Then there is the Hill Start Assist. Stopped on a hill in traffic momentarily; the brake pedal is pushed down firmly then
almost released before pressing again. The pedal firms up confirming HSA is now activated. Now when the brake pedal is released
the brakes have a 2 second delay before releasing allowing the gas pedal to be squeezed and the brakes then release to
allow a hill start without roll back.

The car can be held on the gas and bite like conventional manual but I don't recommend that in any car for more than a
couple of seconds anyway due to clutch burn resulting. The Instruction book doesn't recommend that method of holding
the car on a hill either.

The French have always been a bit different with their car design. My Citroen Xantia had Hydraulic suspension with ride
height adjustment and was a dream to drive. The suspension on my 308 is ultra smooth and to date it has provided
trouble free motoring. Bought in a 48 hour frenzy to replace my 307 which was written off in February this year it has
had compliments from all of my students young and old. I have just sourced a cruise control stalk which I intend fitting
as all the wiring is there and it just needs enabling on the ECU with a diagnostic computer.

Well John, thats about it at present. Oh, BTW, do you use the two foot approach when manoeuvring in tight positions?
Left foot used on the brake like a clutch and gentle pressure on the gas? Lifting the brake just enough to allow the
car to move forward then stop?


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#21 25-08-14 05:40:05

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Moving off from a stationary

I forgot the Park P position. When the car is stopped and the journey has ended leaving the car in A or R
is just the same as leaving the car in gear in a manual. Turning the engine off allows the clutch to close
and thus using the engine to restrict the movement of the car should the handbrake fail.

At traffic lights I encourage handbrake and foot off footbrake. The Highway Code recommends that method
so as not to dazzle drivers behind with the brake lights in the dark. I used to also teach neutral but I have
had one or two nervous types select Reverse by mistake at traffic lights so if the right foot is on the floor
then the chance of the gas pedal been inadvertently pressed is minimised. But, Handbrake on and Neutral
is the best way if they leave their right foot on the brake pedal because a shunt could cause the right foot
to slip off of the brake onto the gas compounding the problem.

Incidentally, the handbrake on the 308 is one of the most effective I've ever come across. With it firmly on
It's virtually impossible to drive off without the back end dipping and almost dragging the back wheels along.
You know instantly that it's been left on.

Last edited by AUTAX (25-08-14 05:41:20)


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#22 25-08-14 07:12:32

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Moving off from a stationary

And Finally, congratulations to Daniel Ricciardo. What a great win for him and what a thrilling race the Belgium GP was.


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#23 25-08-14 12:35:00

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,690
Website

Re: Moving off from a stationary

Hi Autax thanks for the interesting information (I might look at a 308 when I go shopping for a replacement one day soon).
My only experience has been with classic hydraulic boxes, I have yet to drive an electronic shifter utilising a clutch & conventional gearbox, but it seems to me more logical & efficient than the old hydraulic units with their in-built slip between engine & rest of the drive-train.
As I've mentioned before my powerful little Lancer is a delight to drive with it's very torquey engine - but the stupid auto transmission insists on shifting down with medium acceleration, the engine can easily handle it without the down shift which actually causes an irritating pause with momentary over-revving instead of instant acceleration.
I've learned to avoid unwanted downshifts by slapping the J-pattern gear lever sideways into "sports mode" before any strong acceleration at medium to high speed.

AUTAX wrote:

... do you use the two foot approach when manoeuvring in tight positions? Left foot used on the brake like a clutch and gentle pressure on the gas? Lifting the brake just enough to allow the car to move forward then stop?

I would like to but unfortunately our examiners award an immediate fail to anyone seen using their left foot to brake whatever the circumstances.
As far as I can tell the reasoning goes that left foot braking causes the driver to seriously mess up when swapping over to manual transmissions, and those who do it tend to develop the habit of riding the brake with the left foot, causing the brake lights to be permanently displayed and adding unnecessary wear to the brake linings as well.
I can vouch for the latter, I recall texting an ADI to advise him that the brake lights on his new auto Mazda 3 were always on, I didn't get a reply and he still drives around with the brake lights stuck on at times (although never with a student behind the wheel), I can only assume he's a left-foot braker by habit.

Having said that, I'm aware that professional drivers, rally drivers et al utilise left braking without any problem, and I would like to use your technique when a student manoeuvers on a slope*, but I think I'd be setting them up to fail the NT driving test.
*On flat ground my Lancer turns into a wild runaway beast if any gas is used during manoeuvres.

I teach foot brake on because brake light dazzle is not a problem here (even in rain).
I insist they only use the lock button for P & R as required but never for other gears, this usually negates the problem of accidentally selecting reverse except that many of my students are lazy and keep the button pressed for all gear positions.
Thinking about this, I can see an advantage in the zig-zag pattern shift (no button needed).

"The French have always been a bit different with their car design."
You're not kidding! I remember the little Citroen with hydraulic suspension which could be driven with one wheel removed, the wheel-less hub tucked up under the wheel arch and the car balanced on the remaining three wheels albeit rather precariously.
The French insist on being different in everything, not just cars.

Last edited by Zipper (25-08-14 12:43:04)


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
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#24 25-08-14 13:21:53

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Moving off from a stationary

Hi John, thanks for the reply. (twice smile)

A lot of American drivers tend to use left foot braking and I've noticed
a few that have come to me for remedial work in order to pass our test.
I try to get them out of the habit but once learnt hard to forget.

Anyway, did you get chance to watch the Belgium GP or are you not that interested?


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#25 25-08-14 16:55:18

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,324
Website

Re: Moving off from a stationary

I use two feet,for,driving.
Impulse the rightfor gas and brake, I use the left for clutch.

I never press the brake instead of the clutch. My left and,right foot operate quite independently.

If brought up using left foot for brake, why should they need remedial to switch to one footed driving?

If brought up using left for for clutch, then it may well be an issue as it is trained to stomp down on a pedal, not feather it!

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