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#1 21-06-14 22:43:29

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Incident on the M3

Last evening my wife and I were travelling up the M3 in my Z3, hood down enjoying the evening sun towards Cambridge, just past junction 12. We were travelling in the 3rd lane approx. 3 secs behind the car in front when suddenly all hell broke loose. There was a sudden plume of dirt & gravel flung up in the air and brake lights and swerving cars in front heralded a major incident.

Fortunately the car behind was also travelling at safe distance from me and as i braked hard I was relieved that he also was on the brakes. I quickly got the hazards on and as we stopped the carnage in front of me was horrific. Basically a Fiesta had gone into the centre barrier (apparently the rear O/S had blown) and spun 360 degrees before stopping on the 3rd lane. The girl driver jumped out and was obviously shocked and dazed and lost orientation. My wife got out to comfort her and stop her running into the motorway traffic. in the meantime I got onto the emergency services requesting Police and Ambulance. The traffic by this time had slowed to a crawl and then stopped to allow my wife and the girl to cross to the hard shoulder. I also managed to cross the three lanes to safety.

As luck would have it a paramedic was travelling in the opposite direction and stopped his vehicle next to the centre reservation and crossed to give assistance.He ran back to get his medical equipment but as the police arrived he was told to move his vehicle.

The girl was clearly upset. The car's front end was destroyed, the airbags had gone off. The seat belt had left one hell of a welt across her shoulder and her knees were cut and bleeding. The guys that were following her had to swerve to avoid hitting her. Clearly to close. They talked to the police to give their account. In the meantime the paramedic turned up and pulled in front of me. As the adrenalin left me I started thinking what could have been. Shock set in a bit and I felt quite lucky not to have been rear ended or to have stopped before hitting the debris which could have ruined traction of my tyres and possibly ended up actually hitting the girl's car.

Eventually the officer taking notes came over to me to see if I had been hurt or hit. I said not but had rung the call in. He thanked me for my attention shook my hand and said when I was ready he would stop the traffic to let me out as the paramedics car was right in front of me. What utterly professional people these Traffic Police are.

Later on I was reflecting on the incident and thought after 45+ years of driving experience my reaction was still delayed slightly as it took a moment to realise what was happening. Never had this happen to me. I wondered then what would a complete novice have made of it had he gone onto the motorway for the first time having just passed his test? I shudder to think. The sooner they either legislate to allow learners to be taken on a motorway or to have had further professional tuition and be signed off before a full licence is awarded the better. Other countries allow it, and yes I'm harping on about Germany again, why can't we???

Last edited by AUTAX (21-06-14 22:45:43)


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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21-06-14 22:43:29

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Re: Incident on the M3



#2 22-06-14 06:25:28

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Incident on the M3

It doesn't look like being any time soon.    The suggestion that learners should be allowed to use motorways and graduated licences  was in the green paper consultation and that's been put on hold indefinitely.

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#3 22-06-14 07:59:41

johnp
Verified Member
From: Dorset
Registered: 04-03-06
Posts: 2,636

Re: Incident on the M3

So glad you are OK.
Some time ago I reacted similarly at a crash on M3 M25 junction.
You begin to think what you could / should have done.

I beat myself up over the fact I did not activate my hazards
immediately. Shock sets in and self preservation.

We really need Motorway lessons. You need some idea of how to react.
I was doing a Motorway session M27 with a rehabilitation last week.
Young woman seriously injured in the Cranborne crash last year.
First time on a Motorway.

Driving well until she planned to overtake - quite correctly timed BUT   
she presumed the car overtaking her had passed when it was still adjacent.

My speed of reactions made me realise I am still up to this job !!!!   

Glad you are OK.


Driving is books-
1. "safe and responsible INDEPENDENCE."
2. "DISABILITY into ABILITY" 
3. "PSYCHOLOGY than SYSTEMS.
www.drivingincludesu.co.uk

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#4 22-06-14 10:40:25

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Incident on the M3

Thanks John. This has gone viral when I posted it on Facebook.

RM, I know what you are saying but it still doesn't alter the fact
that our representatives and parents up and down the country
should be pushing for this. Maybe one of those internet petitions
are required to wake up the Government.

If I start one will you all support it?


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#5 22-06-14 10:40:47

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,297

Re: Incident on the M3

Hi
I can understand, to a certain extent the clamour for M'way lessons; but these three sites are only a few miles apart on a single continuous road. Which poses the highest degree of difficulty/danger?

http://goo.gl/maps/PLt5v

http://goo.gl/maps/sY16i

http://goo.gl/maps/EvZvJ

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#6 22-06-14 10:54:16

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Incident on the M3

A highway with three or more lanes running for miles with two or more lanes travelling at 70 MPH


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#7 22-06-14 12:24:32

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,297

Re: Incident on the M3

Hi Autax
I was actually asking which of the 3 I posted was the worst.

Your "3 or more lanes" needn't be a motorway it could just be a multi lane dual carriageway.

http://goo.gl/maps/BgGz9    again, same road just a lot further south

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#8 22-06-14 13:20:35

MGM
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: 24-10-11
Posts: 861

Re: Incident on the M3

pegasus wrote:

Hi Autax
I was actually asking which of the 3 I posted was the worst.

Your "3 or more lanes" needn't be a motorway it could just be a multi lane dual carriageway.

http://goo.gl/maps/BgGz9    again, same road just a lot further south

And a motorway can have fewer than three lanes, and a limit less than 70.

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#9 22-06-14 16:00:33

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Incident on the M3

I would agree that any form of training will be of benefit to a novice driver. My preference would be post-test as I can see problems unleashing tens of thousands of learner drivers onto the motorway network.

I think the point that Pegasus was making is that 57% of Young Driver collisions are urban, 39% are rural and only 4% are on a motorway.

If 96% of the problem is not on a motorway, is that where further training is needed?

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#10 22-06-14 16:01:41

Coasting Mart
Verified Member
Registered: 11-06-09
Posts: 967

Re: Incident on the M3

Autax wrote:

After 45+ years of driving experience my reaction was still delayed slightly as it took a moment to realise what was happening. Never had this happen to me.

I don't wish to be unnecessarily argumentative (no really!)  cool but your experience is the same as most other people.  You can drive for half a century and never have any incidents on a m-way.  What use a couple of hours of training 45 yrs ago?  M-ways are statistically the safest roads - generally, the problem is boredom, monotony and staying awake!  And, cars are quite simple really - when ***** happens you have very few options - brake or swerve, or both!  If you've been driving long enough to pass your test, you'd very probably brake or swerve when the proverbial is hitting the fan in front of you.  What you don't yet have is the experience to spot unusual behaviours and circumstances developing and be defensive before the fan gets turned on.  Mechanical failure is not something you can predict.   roll

How do you provide training to hone someone's emergency reactions when a car's tyre blows out?  neutral

Ok, having said all that, yes, I think m-way training would be really important/useful.  There's actually quite a lot of stuff to know about SMART m-ways, how to plan a journey, how to get on and off safely, how to generally drive along and anticipate normal changes in traffic flows, what to do in an emergency, how to assist at an emergency, etc.  It's a pretty big topic in the great world of driving - why should so much be left for people to 'learn from experience' or from relations.  Mostly, people don't experience emergencies, but when they do it's a steep learning curve!
Interesting that the paramedic stopped by the central res! Rule one - don't put yourself at risk.

Anyway, well done for leaving enough space to deal with the unpredictable event, glad it worked out ok for you and your family.   smile


"I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car"

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#11 22-06-14 20:03:29

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Incident on the M3

A lot more misery would be caused if other drivers didn't take evasive action to avoid idiots on the motorway.

Like the old joke goes. Never had an accident but seen plenty in my rear view mirror.

Young drivers teaching themselves how to drive on a
3 or more multi lane highway is a recipe for disaster.

The fact there aren't more collisions on the motorways are down to others
taking action to avoid them not down to the skills of novice drivers.

I'll leave it there.  smile

Last edited by AUTAX (22-06-14 20:04:56)


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#12 22-06-14 20:09:03

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Incident on the M3

trunkmonkey wrote:

I would agree that any form of training will be of benefit to a novice driver. My preference would be post-test as I can see problems unleashing tens of thousands of learner drivers onto the motorway network.

I think the point that Pegasus was making is that 57% of Young Driver collisions are urban, 39% are rural and only 4% are on a motorway.

If 96% of the problem is not on a motorway, is that where further training is needed?

Any further training involving high speed driving on multi lane highways is always beneficial.

I think thousands of learners on a motorway at anyone time is a great exaggeration TM.
Not all learners on the road are at test standard. And those that are will not all be taking lessons at the same time. smile

(Sorry to see your efforts are being wasted elsewhere BTW.)

Last edited by AUTAX (22-06-14 20:10:05)


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#13 22-06-14 20:26:25

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Incident on the M3

Perhaps I overegged the learners bit - poetic licence.   But! 900,000 took a driving test last year. So potentially.....................
I'll stop there.

Yes one person over there doesn't like me. I know you had the same problem, as did others.
But,it's a forum, just like this one, where views are expressed and opinions will differ.

My opinion on learners on motorways may differ from yours. I believe we'd be better off making them safer on NSL single carriageways first.

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#14 22-06-14 22:14:14

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Incident on the M3

I quite agree TM walk before they can run but i personally feel motorway tuition is a necessity. 900,000 passed, 75,000 per month. 19,000 per week 3,8000 per day. Dispersed amongst the motorways in this country then hardly a drop in the ocean.

I just think it would be safer to be able to either teach them before or legislate for post test tuition. You are a great advocate for education (DAS & NDAC) and I respect that. Well, let's give them the best education we can and not leave it to them to teach themselves how to behave on a motorway.


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#15 22-06-14 22:16:47

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Incident on the M3

Just to add, I was thinking along the lines of maybe one or two x 2 hour lessons not taking them on the motorway for each & every lesson when they reach test standard.


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#16 23-06-14 13:54:41

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,325
Website

Re: Incident on the M3

Whilst novice drivers contribute a smallish proportion of motorway accidents,,I would suggest that part of this is because they are under represented on such roads.
With lack of training many I know avoid motorways and look for alternative routes.
So they shy away from the safest roads and onto roads that are less safe.
Motorway training can be use to give experience of many skills, overtaking, space judgement, forward observations, rearward planning. Many of these are hard to replicate on local,roads.
We have only a small section of DC within easy reach, but are superbly placed for a motorway.
Incorporating motorway training would be a great way to expand our DC work.
Nobody is saying it should be compulsory, but it should certainly be an option.
If motorways are so safe, what is the logic of preventing qualified ADIs from training on them?
The transferable skills would be utilised on all,types,of roads improving safety overall.
There is no mystic to motorways, just the application of core skills to a different situation. Preventing properly managed training on them defies logic.

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#17 23-06-14 14:45:53

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Incident on the M3

I think the govt have backed away from the idea because of the cost.  It would require new legislation, and then every sign at motorway entrance points would need to be changed, and publications updated etc. 

There is also the matter of policing,  how would the traffic cops be able to identify a qualified instructor was in charge without having to pull them over, which itself would be causing danger.

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#18 23-06-14 15:10:15

Lewinpeter1
Verified Member
From: Morpeth,Northumberland
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 803
Website

Re: Incident on the M3

Hi
Think RM has hit the nail on the head here.
Anything that might cost a govt. money or votes is destined to be dropped.
We have had a backbone free zone in govt. now for 2 decades and no sign of any political collossus on the horizon.
We should be allowed to train on all roads.
Peter


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#19 23-06-14 15:16:09

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Incident on the M3

Well, here is the link. Motorway Tuition for Learners. I'm not brow beating anyone into this but if you wish to see a change in the legislation then please sign it.

Of course there are pros and cons but I think kaf makes some very good points.

Why should a price be put on safety? I can't see that either leaving the sign as it is is a problem. Putting a qualifying sign on the back of the car [ L(m)] wouldn't be beyond the scope. These signs would only be available to ADIs of course.

Last edited by AUTAX (23-06-14 15:16:24)


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#20 23-06-14 16:27:15

Lewinpeter1
Verified Member
From: Morpeth,Northumberland
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 803
Website

Re: Incident on the M3

Hi
Well done AUTAX.
Have signed
Peter


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#21 23-06-14 17:01:07

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,325
Website

Re: Incident on the M3

I don't buy into the difficult to police philosophy.
We have dozens of laws that are difficult to police, but the fact that something is illegal dissuades people from doing it.
After all, there is no way of checking that a person even has a licence unless they are stopped, but we don't abolish it because it's hard to enforce.

Last edited by kaf (23-06-14 17:01:23)

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#22 23-06-14 21:37:34

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Incident on the M3

kaf wrote:

I don't buy into the difficult to police philosophy.
We have dozens of laws that are difficult to police, but the fact that something is illegal dissuades people from doing it.
After all, there is no way of checking that a person even has a licence unless they are stopped, but we don't abolish it because it's hard to enforce.

I agree kaf. Thanks for saying so.


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#23 23-06-14 23:07:19

la.monikita
Verified Member
From: SE LONDON / KENT
Registered: 12-03-05
Posts: 3,064

Re: Incident on the M3

kaf wrote:

I don't buy into the difficult to police philosophy.
We have dozens of laws that are difficult to police, but the fact that something is illegal dissuades people from doing it.
After all, there is no way of checking that a person even has a licence unless they are stopped, but we don't abolish it because it's hard to enforce.

Even when they are stopped they don't need to have it! They need to turn up in 7 days with A licence, of "THE" person that "was" driving at that time...and said THAT name.  TRY that elsewhere in Europe...


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#24 24-06-14 02:27:58

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Incident on the M3

Lewinpeter1 wrote:

Hi
Well done AUTAX.
Have signed
Peter

Thanks Peter. smile


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#25 24-06-14 21:13:17

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Incident on the M3

Roadmaster wrote:

I think the govt have backed away from the idea because of the cost.  It would require new legislation, and then every sign at motorway entrance points would need to be changed, and publications updated etc. 

There is also the matter of policing,  how would the traffic cops be able to identify a qualified instructor was in charge without having to pull them over, which itself would be causing danger.

The Motorway Regs are 32 years old. It would only require Reg. 11 to be amended. There have been a number of amendments to the initial Regs, including 2 specifically to learner drivers, so it's nothing new.
The 'Start of Motorway Regulations' sign is all that is required. The list of prohibitions are no longer used.
Most publications are out of date the minute they hit the street. Wait until the next edition.

That last bit can be sorted by way of a compromise. The law changes to allow a supervisor of a PLH, the same as everywhere else.Therefore no additional legislation is required - as there would have to be if only an ADI could supervise. Nothing extra for the police to do.

These are the safest roads, a supervisor can sit in on every other (more dangerous) road. There need be no difference here.

I still think single carriageways warrant more work to prevent KSI's, but allowing PLH's access to the motorway network could be advantageous.

I have signed the petition.

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