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#1 23-05-14 07:27:24

ADIALAN
Verified Member
From: NORTHAMPTON (UK)
Registered: 05-03-06
Posts: 741
Website

Independant driving fail, opinions please

My Nephew failed his test this week during the independent drive. I was not able to teach him to drive or witness the incident as I am in Northampton, he lives near Lincoln.

The examiner told him to follow the road signs to Grimsby and at the approaching roundabout was the second exit, left lane approach.

In my Nephews head he thought it was the first exit so signalled left on the approach. Moments before the roundabout the examiner told my Nephew to cancel the signal as he needed the second exit (therefore he signalled too early) but if the examiner had not intervened my Nephew would have taken the first exit, albeit the wrong way, but the signal would have been correct.

Should this have been a fail as my Nephew signalled correctly for the exit he was going to take.

Alan


"There is only one difference between genius and stupidity - genius has its limits"

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23-05-14 07:27:24

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Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please



#2 23-05-14 07:37:18

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

No it shouldn't.  Candidates cannot fail for going the wrong way if they have signalled/positioned etc correctly.

However,  despite the official line,  it's common place for examiners to intervene rather than allow the candidate to go off route, and then fail them. In this case the examiner will simply say he thought the candidate had signalled too early for the exit, rather than admit he didn't want to be taken off route.

The examiner should have waited until your nephew entered the roundabout and seen which exit he took.

Last edited by Roadmaster (23-05-14 07:49:19)

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#3 23-05-14 08:25:47

HelenG
Verified Member
From: Huddersfield/barnsley
Registered: 25-06-12
Posts: 53

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

Yes that seems to be how things are done.
I had a pupil recently, whilst doing id she got in the right hand lane on approach to a roundabout, thinking she was following the correct route. Then told to swap lanes (which she did safely I might add)  but still failed for being in the 'wrong' lane.

Even if this happened during normal driving, which we all do occasionally if we're in a new town for eg.  Why is it wrong to correct yourself?  As long as you do it in a safe manner?

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#4 23-05-14 08:54:30

ralge
Verified Member
From: Sheffield
Registered: 10-01-07
Posts: 320

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

Seems wrong.
What if your nephew had ignored the examiner's verbal intervention, not taken the signal off and taken the first exit?
That could not constitute a fail, in my book.


DSA Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Dip, PTLLS, Safed for Vans, NDAC/Speed Awareness on-road trainer, RoSPA RoAD Test Examiner.

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#5 23-05-14 09:50:53

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,144

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

If I was the Examiner and the first exit would have taken us miles off route I would have verbally instructed close to the roundabout that we were taking the second exit. Thus giving a second or two for the candidate to cancel the signal before telling to cancel and registering a serious fault.

Perhaps that is what happened who knows when the information is not received directly?

Last edited by martin Williams (23-05-14 09:52:26)

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#6 23-05-14 11:07:35

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

Get your nephew to request a copy of the written report.    That will show exactly what went wrong.

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#7 23-05-14 12:37:25

m6northtoheaven
Verified Member
Registered: 04-01-09
Posts: 581

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

who's to say what the examiner puts in his report is correct? He could write what he likes as long as it justifies his decision. Maybe tests should start being recorded but that will nevereverevereverever happen. big_smile


The inclanation of the optic is as adequate as a twitch of the cranium like a quadraped divoid of its visionary capacity!

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#8 23-05-14 19:37:56

ADIALAN
Verified Member
From: NORTHAMPTON (UK)
Registered: 05-03-06
Posts: 741
Website

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

Thanks for your replies.

Just what I thought too!

A fail should not have been recorded

A very good reason for parents or the pupils instructor to sit in the car on test.


Alan


"There is only one difference between genius and stupidity - genius has its limits"

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#9 23-05-14 21:22:44

Lady-Hynarc
Verified Member
Registered: 09-04-12
Posts: 650

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

This situation really annoys me!  mad

If the examiner intervenes because the pupil is going the wrong way with all the correct signals then there is no way that the pupil should be failed.  In my view the test has not been conducted properly.  I have checked this in the past with the test centre manager and was told that the examiner should NOT redirect, regardless of the inconvenience.  I always advise my pupils that if they do signal to go the wrong way and the examiner attempts to correct them, to say "I'm sorry I am already committed to turning left (for example)".  I also advise the same if they get into an incorrect filter lane and have to go off route. 

If one of my pupils was failed due to a direction correction I would have words with the TCM (or his current equivalent).  The theory test raises the question of being in the wrong lane and advises that you go the wrong way and sort it out later!

So, in this situation, if the description given is accurate then I would be kicking up a stink...in the nicest way possible.  smile

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#10 23-05-14 21:32:24

la.monikita
Verified Member
From: SE LONDON / KENT
Registered: 12-03-05
Posts: 3,064

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

Lady-Hynarc wrote:

This situation really annoys me!  mad

If the examiner intervenes because the pupil is going the wrong way with all the correct signals then there is no way that the pupil should be failed.  In my view the test has not been conducted properly.  I have checked this in the past with the test centre manager and was told that the examiner should NOT redirect, regardless of the inconvenience.  I always advise my pupils that if they do signal to go the wrong way and the examiner attempts to correct them, to say "I'm sorry I am already committed to turning left (for example)".  I also advise the same if they get into an incorrect filter lane and have to go off route. 

If one of my pupils was failed due to a direction correction I would have words with the TCM (or his current equivalent).  The theory test raises the question of being in the wrong lane and advises that you go the wrong way and sort it out later!

So, in this situation, if the description given is accurate then I would be kicking up a stink...in the nicest way possible.  smile

I agree 100%!


"What is necessary to change a person is to change his awareness of himself."
Abraham Maslow

21st Century Women http://www.loisontheloose.com/my-advent … /the-team/

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#11 24-05-14 07:57:45

johnp
Verified Member
From: Dorset
Registered: 04-03-06
Posts: 2,636

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

The whole purpose of ID is that it is independent.
It has nothing to do with the Examiner once the instruction has been given.
Some help for safety - but not to overrule.


Driving is books-
1. "safe and responsible INDEPENDENCE."
2. "DISABILITY into ABILITY" 
3. "PSYCHOLOGY than SYSTEMS.
www.drivingincludesu.co.uk

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#12 24-05-14 16:01:52

russchaplin2410
Verified Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 15-01-14
Posts: 22
Website

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

There is no way this should have been a fail. It's up to the examiner to wait and see which route the candidate takes. Hardly an independent drive if the examiner interferes before turn is carried out.


I'm Russ Chaplin. I teach driving in the Nottingham area. I am also a driving instructor trainer. visit me at driving lessons Nottingham

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#13 25-05-14 18:47:52

Robbie
Verified Member
From: Shrewsbury
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 1,230
Website

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

We have a similar situation in Shrewsbury on one roundabout, they are told to follow Road for Ellesmere which is 2nd exit at an 11.00 position.
Most students think left due to position on sign, so signal left.
The examiner will then wait to see if they take the first exit, and then intervene once it's clear they aren't turning.
Then they get a serious fault for incorrect signal.
However if they do turn left they are then given a minor fault for (17) response to traffic signs, which in my opinion would be wrong as they've gone the wrong way correctly.

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#14 25-05-14 18:57:02

Robbie
Verified Member
From: Shrewsbury
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 1,230
Website

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

Also 2 days ago I had a girl fail and one of the serious was for incorrect Lane at roundabout.
She was told to go ahead 2nd exit.  She got into right hand lane and then realised and said to examiner I'm in the wrong Lane but then still went ahead.
When they got back he asked her what she should have done, and her reply was signal right and go all the way around the roundabout and then take the correct exit.
To which he replied that would have been the safer option, and its ok to do that if you think it's the safest option.
Then he said its ok to go the wrong way if its done correctly and safely.
She said on way home, that she knew that's what she should have done but nerves got better off her.
She also got a serious for speeding on a country lane which was full of puddles, and again she said she thought the examiner would expect her to make progress and get upto the 60mph speed limit.
Her result was 2 minor and 2 serious.

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#15 25-05-14 21:38:32

HelenG
Verified Member
From: Huddersfield/barnsley
Registered: 25-06-12
Posts: 53

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

I am going to sit in on my pupils tests a lot more often  smile

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#16 26-05-14 06:33:21

Triplea35
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-12
Posts: 508

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

ADIALAN wrote:

My Nephew failed his test this week during the independent drive. I was not able to teach him to drive or witness the incident as I am in Northampton, he lives near Lincoln.

The examiner told him to follow the road signs to Grimsby and at the approaching roundabout was the second exit, left lane approach.

In my Nephews head he thought it was the first exit so signalled left on the approach. Moments before the roundabout the examiner told my Nephew to cancel the signal as he needed the second exit (therefore he signalled too early) but if the examiner had not intervened my Nephew would have taken the first exit, albeit the wrong way, but the signal would have been correct.

Should this have been a fail as my Nephew signalled correctly for the exit he was going to take.

Alan

Going back to the OP I feel too many of you are making decisions that the examiner was wrong based purely on the account of the candidate.

Even on that account: how was the examiner supposed to know that the candidate intended taking the first exit, and the fact that he intervened 'moments' before entering the roundabout would suggest that he may have left it as long as he felt safe to do so.

We have four roundabouts of this layout on our test routes and used during independent and directed driving and I understand it is a fairly common cause of failure.

I had one pupil on test in my early days who indicated early and took the second exit and failed with a serious. The roundabout was quite clear though so I can understand why the examiner allowed him to continue.

I have not had another fail to this fault on test, but have failed quite a few pupils for it when conducting mocks. In most cases the pupil has commented later that they would have taken the second exit.

Certainly in my test area all theses roundabouts are  generally quite fast and free flowing. Can you seriously expect a candidate to be allowed to enter the roundabout with an incorrect signal on and a critical incident to develop if he doesn't in fact take the first exit and somebody approaching or waiting to emerge from the first exit acts on the  candidates signal and enters the roundabout directly in his path.

I don't think examiners are allowed to let such incidents to develop, nor paid enough to put their lives at risk!

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#17 26-05-14 08:10:07

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

Examiners are supposed to record faults when they actually happen.  In the above senario no fault had been committed before the examiner intervened and then recorded a fail.  The examiner created a fail in this case.

how was the examiner supposed to know that the candidate intended taking the first exit,

I would have thought the answer to that is more than obvious,  because he signalled his intention to do so.   Presumably that's what he had been doing during the rest of the test without the examiner anticipating that he was doing it wrong.

Last edited by Roadmaster (26-05-14 08:18:51)

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#18 26-05-14 09:28:33

Triplea35
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-12
Posts: 508

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

Roadmaster wrote:

Examiners are supposed to record faults when they actually happen.  In the above senario no fault had been committed before the examiner intervened and then recorded a fail.  The examiner created a fail in this case.

how was the examiner supposed to know that the candidate intended taking the first exit,

I would have thought the answer to that is more than obvious,  because he signalled his intention to do so.   Presumably that's what he had been doing during the rest of the test without the examiner anticipating that he was doing it wrong.

The fault has already occurred. The candidate is following route signs, the examiner expects him to be taking the second exit, so the fault surely occurs as soon as he indicates too early. He may 'negate'  the fault by actually taking the first exit but how long can the examiner leave it before intervening. It must  be dependant on the layout of the roundabout, speed on approach, how busy it is, particularly  with traffic waiting to emerge/ approaching the roundabout from the first exit.

The OP makes no mention of other traffic on the roundabout, so how can we criticise the actions of the examiner.

As I said an examiner allowed one my pupils to leave the signal on and failed him but that was because the roundabout was clear with noting waiting to emerge from first exit.  If a vehicle had been waiting to emerge do you really think it would be safe to allow the candidate to enter the roundabout and the examiner make a last second intervention when the candidate actually follows the expected route of second exit.

Safety is paramount.

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#19 26-05-14 09:54:12

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

The fault has already occurred. The candidate is following route signs


It is not a fault on independent driving to go the wrong way.

There's a good explanation here:  https://www.gov.uk/practical-driving-te … f-the-test

It doesn’t matter if you don’t remember every direction, or if you go the wrong way.

Last edited by Roadmaster (26-05-14 10:17:03)

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#20 26-05-14 10:48:26

MGM
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: 24-10-11
Posts: 861

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

Roadmaster wrote:

The fault has already occurred. The candidate is following route signs


It is not a fault on independent driving to go the wrong way.

There's a good explanation here:  https://www.gov.uk/practical-driving-te … f-the-test

It doesn’t matter if you don’t remember every direction, or if you go the wrong way.

That's pretty clear. The DT1 (7.01) is also clear:

"The examiner is present during the test to evaluate the candidate's ability to drive. This involves seeing mistakes, which the candidate may make. The examiner is not regarded as being in charge of the vehicle during the test (though they are responsible for the conduct of the test), nor are they supervising the candidate during the test: the regulations do not require a driver to be accompanied by a supervisor when taking a test. Examiners should not, therefore, intervene except when it becomes necessary to do so in the interests of public safety, including their own and that of the candidate. Such intervention may be by warning, advice or by operation of the controls."

If the pupil did indeed intend to take the first exit, there was no safety issue and no justification for intervention.

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#21 26-05-14 15:28:01

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,303

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

Hi RM
Just out of interest, does ID in Bolton incorporate the southern end of the A666 requiring a leave at the (Non Motorway traffic leave here) junction.
If it does, what system are they using there, Direction Signs, the route plans or a vebal sequence?

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#22 26-05-14 15:35:14

Triplea35
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-12
Posts: 508

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

Roadmaster:

I never suggested it was a fault to go the wrong way on Independent Driving. I suggested that it would be a signal fault - timed, the examiner is expecting the candidate to take the second exit.

I believe that MGM's highlight of the DT1:  Examiners should not, therefore, intervene except when it becomes necessary to do so in the interests of public safety,
just supports my argument. If vehicles are waiting to emerge from or approaching the first exit the examiner would have every justification in intervening in the interests of public safety.

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#23 26-05-14 16:13:14

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

pegasus wrote:

Hi RM
Just out of interest, does ID in Bolton incorporate the southern end of the A666 requiring a leave at the (Non Motorway traffic leave here) junction.
If it does, what system are they using there, Direction Signs, the route plans or a vebal sequence?

Yes they use that stretch.  They use direction signs, as you approach the slip road it's 'follow farnworth', no mention of which exit off the roundabout.

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#24 26-05-14 16:25:17

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

Triplea35 wrote:

Roadmaster:

I never suggested it was a fault to go the wrong way on Independent Driving. I suggested that it would be a signal fault - timed, the examiner is expecting the candidate to take the second exit.

I believe that MGM's highlight of the DT1:  Examiners should not, therefore, intervene except when it becomes necessary to do so in the interests of public safety,
just supports my argument. If vehicles are waiting to emerge from or approaching the first exit the examiner would have every justification in intervening in the interests of public safety.

How can it be a signal fault when the candidate has not yet carried out the maneouvre?   If they intended going left (irrespective of what the examiner wanted or expected) they have got it correct.  It would only become a fault if they signalled left but carried on ahead. And faults can only be recorded after it happens.   

Your argument regarding any other traffic is irrelevant, because the candidate intended turning left, according to the op, and correctly signalled his intention.  If you were an examiner and you assessed that as a fault I would be pushing DVSA to send you for some assessment retraining.

An examiner cannot assume the candidate is going to do it wrong, as clearly shown in the links above.

Last edited by Roadmaster (26-05-14 16:28:14)

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#25 26-05-14 20:37:15

Coasting Mart
Verified Member
Registered: 11-06-09
Posts: 967

Re: Independant driving fail, opinions please

I follow Triplea's safety argument, and agree with RM's points.  Maybe something like this should happen:
If the examiner has doubts about the intended route ie. the 2nd exit but with a left signal already on, (yes, potentially dangerous) then they should query the candidate about their intentions in timely fashion: "are you taking the first exit?" or similar.  If "yes" then leave them to it if no time to get them safely onto the correct route.  If "no - I'm going for the 2nd exit" then tell them to turn off the signal and record a serious fault.  Producing peace of mind for themselves shouldn't result in a serious without evidence.

'An examiner cannot assume the candidate is going to do it wrong' is indeed correct, but if they are worried, then why not ask about intentions?  If there's no time, then 'do what they normally do' when someone is about to fling the car into a dangerous position, or intervene earlier!   cool


"I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car"

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