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#1 17-02-14 15:41:18

mon
Verified Member
From: Lurgan Co.Armagh
Registered: 08-11-08
Posts: 418
Website

Advanced Drivers??

http://www.u.tv/News/PSNI-vehicle-invol … 2b9ba3e316   
This is the 4th collision involving Police in the last 6 weeks, wonder if they could do with a few refresher Lessons.?


From Striving to Driving.....Lurgan Co.Armagh

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17-02-14 15:41:18

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Re: Advanced Drivers??




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#2 17-02-14 17:40:19

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
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Re: Advanced Drivers??

Maybe you,know more than was printed?  But there is nothing there to indicate who's liability it was.

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#3 17-02-14 20:50:44

mon
Verified Member
From: Lurgan Co.Armagh
Registered: 08-11-08
Posts: 418
Website

Re: Advanced Drivers??

Fair point Kaf, dont judge book by its cover.....and no -one was seriously hurt in any of the 4 incidents.Going by picture it is very hard to work out who is at fault....one thing is for sure one or more of those vehicles are guilty of poor choices.Just on another while on lessons I constantly see Traffic branch police jeeps who are supposed to be watching for Joe Publics bad driving , doing the same things they will caution us for....no signals,, speeding( I know necessary sometimes) seen one last week with a brake light out.As long as no-one hurt, cars can be fixed.


From Striving to Driving.....Lurgan Co.Armagh

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#4 18-02-14 06:34:23

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: Advanced Drivers??

Brake lights do fail when out on the road, hasn't that ever happened to you? Does the the essential skills and highway code tell us to use a signal in all circumstances? I agree they should be used if anyone should benefit but they are humans behind the wheel, when was the last time you saw someone getting pulled for not using a signal?

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#5 18-02-14 06:51:23

ger
Verified Member
From: south wales
Registered: 12-03-09
Posts: 321
Website

Re: Advanced Drivers??

saw  a police driver yesterday sitting at a green light turning right no cars coming waiting  for the arrow I had a pupil fail for that 



  ger

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#6 18-02-14 07:42:58

martin_t
Verified Member
Registered: 30-12-06
Posts: 357

Re: Advanced Drivers??

How do you know he hadn't stalled?! (Or the engine has seized, or he's having a heart attack...)

A few months ago I was stopped at a cross roads apparently unnecessarily for probably 90 seconds or a couple of minutes. I had grit behind my contact lens and couldn't drive anywhere in that state.

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#7 18-02-14 07:59:33

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Advanced Drivers??

In the (not too distant) past it could be assumed that the driver of a police car was a police officer.
What you saw was a police vehicle and a driver

In today's modern police service that driver could well be:
a Police Officer trained to Standard Grade,
a Special Police Constable, Basic Grade equivalent to a DSA Pass
A PCSO, Basic Grade equivalent to a DSA Pass
A Scenes of Crime Officer borrowing the only car available to go to a job, Basic Grade equivalent to a DSA Pass
A mechanic from Workshops, test driving the car, Basic Grade equivalent to a DSA Pass

Incidentally, the title of the OP is Advanced Drivers.

85% of police officers are never taught to an advanced grade.

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#8 18-02-14 08:17:12

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Advanced Drivers??

Many years ago, police drivers were trained to drive by example. (Pull Push steering has its roots in this training.) The vast majority of police work was done by officers pounding the beat until the '60s when the panda car enabled a lot of policemen to become mobile. Their training was enough to get them through a test and behind the wheel. Not at an advanced level as TM has shown.

Last edited by AUTAX (18-02-14 20:52:43)


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#9 18-02-14 08:32:37

ger
Verified Member
From: south wales
Registered: 12-03-09
Posts: 321
Website

Re: Advanced Drivers??

because I was stopped behind I am sure you can tell if a driver in front of you restarts the engine  the engine was not seized nor was the officer having a heart attack because when the arrow came on the car moved it was a police officer who is from a local police station the title of the op is advanced drivers but in the collisions were they advanced drivers 85% of police are not  taught to advanced grade the other drivers on the road probably don't know that and expect good driving standard from the police this police officer falls way short of that and needs a refresher lesson  as she would not pass a  dsa test


ger

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#10 18-02-14 09:29:37

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: Advanced Drivers??

If every time a police officer made an error in driving they had to do a refresher, there would be nobody on patrol!

maybe every time an ADI makes an error they should have to resit part 2?

Why do so many people feel the need to heap criticism on people so freely

People make errors, that's life, we try to minimise them, but they will happen because we are human.

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#11 18-02-14 11:06:50

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Advanced Drivers??

ger wrote:

because I was stopped behind I am sure you can tell if a driver in front of you restarts the engine  the engine was not seized nor was the officer having a heart attack because when the arrow came on the car moved it was a police officer who is from a local police station the title of the op is advanced drivers but in the collisions were they advanced drivers 85% of police are not  taught to advanced grade the other drivers on the road probably don't know that and expect good driving standard from the police this police officer falls way short of that and needs a refresher lesson  as she would not pass a  dsa test


ger

To an extent I agree with you. They have been taught, hopefully, to a far higher standard than the general public and should maintain or improve that standard. As a former instructor and examiner it disappoints me when I witness poor police driving because it brings the service into disrepute. The Dixon of Dock Green image is long gone replaced by faceless people hurtling form job to job.

We have the police service that the public ask for. They are concerned about burglaries and anti-social behaviour. Roads Policing is way down the pecking order. The primary function of a traffic policeman is "to deny criminals the use of the road".

If you have a serious grievance about the police woman, then report her. A NIP can be served within 14 days. In the meantime she will be temporarily suspended pending an investigation by Professional Standards (it keeps an Inspector an a Sergeant in a job). After you've provided your statement she will be reported and there is a scheme that will divert her away from NDAC and onto a refresher course. Or she can plead Not Guilty and have her day in Court. Unfortunately, you'll be there all day as well, but you get expenses and on the plus side the WRVS do cracking bacon sarnies.

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#12 18-02-14 12:20:38

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,302

Re: Advanced Drivers??

Hi TM

Is the incident, that ger has told us, about a driving offence?

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#13 18-02-14 13:41:21

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Advanced Drivers??

pegasus wrote:

Hi TM

Is the incident, that ger has told us, about a driving offence?

Personally, I don't think it is, but clearly Ger thinks there was something wrong. I wasn't there. Were other drivers behind inconvenienced?  I don't know.

In law, the police officer can only be judged alongside the standards of every other driver. He/she cannot be judged with a different set of rules. Internally however, it's a different ball game and you are judged against the standard set at test. You can be downgraded without the option of a re-test or refresher.

It is a pre-requisite in most forces that an officer pass the three week standard course within their probationary period. In some forces, failing the course leads to dismissal. That is pressure. As you're well aware not everyone is a good driver and guess what, regardless of training not every police officer will be a good driver. A lot pass the course (just), get out of their probation and then do anything but drive. Fine by me. That's what I call a major contribution to Road Safety.

At the end of the day, police are high profile. They do a job not many can or want to do. They are there to be shot at and it's up to them individually not to do anything that discredits the uniform because it undermines public confidence. Trust me, that is not easy when you are constantly aware of someone wanting to do your legs.

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#14 18-02-14 18:33:52

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: Advanced Drivers??

Something that people outside the police are not aware of, is how much distraction police officers have whilst driving.
Something we tell drivers they should not allow!

But for the police officer it is not that simple. As well as driving they are monitoring often two or more radio channels trying to identify if any incident being broadcast is something they could or should be responding to. Often involved in detailed discussion about such incidents. They are expected to do more than watch the road when driving, but to be watching the occupants of other cars, people walking nearby, alleyways, side roads, adjoining gardens, etc for anything suspicious.

For you or I we would stop to do,this but the police officer is expected to often do,it on the move after all there are response times to be met. Victims waiting for his/her arrival, vital witnesses leaving the scene.

On a fast response drive, the driving takes greater and greater priority, but rarely is attention 100% on the drive! especially as the majority of officers are single crewed so do not have a radio operator to do the listening.

None of this is intended as an excuse for bad driving, but just to give those who have not been there, some idea of the activity level in a police vehicle that to the outside world, just seems to be driving along.

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#15 18-02-14 21:27:53

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,695
Website

Re: Advanced Drivers??

Occasionally the NT News runs a story about NT Police cars parking illegally in the central city area, or performing illegal manoeuvres without their warning systems going.
This sparks off a short period of intense discussion via the Letter/Text To The Editor pages, dominated by the anti-police faction who whine that "they are allowed to break the speed limit or do this or that, so why can't we etc?"

My philosophy is - let the Police get on with work.


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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#16 19-02-14 07:00:19

ger
Verified Member
From: south wales
Registered: 12-03-09
Posts: 321
Website

Re: Advanced Drivers??

I agree that the police have a hard job is not one I would like but when your on a lesson and are  stopped behind a police car on a red light the light turns to green the car does not move  until the arrow comes on and the pupil asked why it makes my job a little bit harder  was any other driver inconvevienced there was me and 3 other cars its no big deal 10/15 seconds gap between the last car and the arrow  is not the end of the world I am sure if it had not been a police car they would have had their hands on the horn  if only 85% of police drivers are trained to advanced standard perhaps its time more were trained

ger

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#17 19-02-14 07:22:46

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: Advanced Drivers??

You misread her.

85% are NOT trained to advanced level.

The costs of training them  would be huge, the money is not there.

Anyway, police or no police, a polite toot on the horn would have been perfectly in order.

As for the pupil asking why, what a great learning opportunity, discuss how even driver you might expect to be good can make errors, how they might be distracted by a radio call or something and how it shows that even after passing your test you need to concentrate properly on your driving. Far from making my job harder, this sort of thing makes my job easier.

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#18 19-02-14 07:47:13

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Advanced Drivers??

So what is being said is that police can no longer be shown as role models in society because they have their own distractions to contend with? Are police routinely tested to see if they can drive at speed listening to a radio, answering a radio? Why are they any better at doing it than an experienced driver of many years practice?

Don't get me wrong. I am not condoning the practices of joe public when he is driving but police are human and the ordinary bobby is not taught to Class 1. I do know that in situations where they are on a call that their passenger is doing the radioing so to say the driver has to do it all is a bit of a "cop" out.   smile


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#19 19-02-14 08:20:16

Yorkshire Lass
Member
Registered: 31-12-12
Posts: 32

Re: Advanced Drivers??

Anyway, police or no police, a polite toot on the horn would have been perfectly in order.






Sorry to be a pain but i think if you check your high way code you can't toot your horn if your stood still i think you should of flashed them.

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#20 19-02-14 08:20:49

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Advanced Drivers??

AUTAX wrote:

So what is being said is that police can no longer be shown as role models in society because they have their own distractions to contend with? Are police routinely tested to see if they can drive at speed listening to a radio, answering a radio? Why are they any better at doing it than an experienced driver of many years practice?

Don't get me wrong. I am not condoning the practices of joe public when he is driving but police are human and the ordinary bobby is not taught to Class 1. I do know that in situations where they are on a call that their passenger is doing the radioing so to say the driver has to do it all is a bit of a "cop" out.   smile

There are demands placed on Chief Officers for their police officers to be highly visible. The best way to do that is single crew - which also means night shift, on traffic, with the nearest assistance miles away, being visible but also looking for offenders. Traffic cars don't have the luxury of a passenger. The inside of a modern patrol car resembles the flight deck of the Enterprise and then there's the outside to cope with.

As for training,re-training, I can only speak for my old force. An officer with 6-12mths service will attend Driving School for a 1 hour assessment. If he passes he can drive marked police vehicles on routine duties. He cannot respond,stop vehicles or use the emergency equipment. He is classed as Basic and has had no police training. The public won't know that.
Between 12 - 24mths he attends a Standard Driving Course of 3 weeks. Only then will he be taught the System. During the course, commentary is introduced. This is THE most important part of police driving. A driver who commentates is unlikely to be involved in a collision because you have to devote 100% to the task of driving and commentating. There is no room for distraction. The radio isn't used, mainly because in the Scottish Borders, or the Lakes or Yorkshire Moors, there's no-one to talk to.
If he passes that he moves onto Response and on successfully passing that is classed as a Standard Driver to drive divisional vehicles and respond and use emergency equipment. The vast majority NEVER get past this point.

Re-testing used to be routine - 3 yrs for Advanced, 5yrs for Standard. Because of the need to reduce the £10M shortfall something has to go and in the police, it is training.
TPAC, VIP and ARV training go ahead, because they are licensed, the rest unfortunately don't. There probably has to be an incident before a driver's standard is looked at - very reactive and potentially costly.

The bit where they are better SHOULD be observational. Even a Standard driver should see things others miss and that could be the difference between involvement and not getting involved. That is key when they respond. Police vehicles cover in excess of 350 million miles a year and respond to over 4 million emergency calls  almost always in the spotlight. At the end of the emergency run they have to deal with that call. That is pressure, and as Autax says, they are human. Something will give. Usually the marriage!

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#21 19-02-14 08:25:57

MGM
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: 24-10-11
Posts: 861

Re: Advanced Drivers??

AUTAX wrote:

So what is being said is that police can no longer be shown as role models in society because they have their own distractions to contend with? Are police routinely tested to see if they can drive at speed listening to a radio, answering a radio? Why are they any better at doing it than an experienced driver of many years practice?

Don't get me wrong. I am not condoning the practices of joe public when he is driving but police are human and the ordinary bobby is not taught to Class 1. I do know that in situations where they are on a call that their passenger is doing the radioing so to say the driver has to do it all is a bit of a "cop" out.   smile

And if they don't have a passenger?

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#22 19-02-14 08:42:30

ger
Verified Member
From: south wales
Registered: 12-03-09
Posts: 321
Website

Re: Advanced Drivers??

please don't think I am having a go at the police as I said its a job I would not want to do but Its down to the public perspective of police drivers I would say that the majority of the public think that all police drivers are trained to advanced standard

ger

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#23 19-02-14 08:52:48

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: Advanced Drivers??

MGM wrote:
AUTAX wrote:

So what is being said is that police can no longer be shown as role models in society because they have their own distractions to contend with? Are police routinely tested to see if they can drive at speed listening to a radio, answering a radio? Why are they any better at doing it than an experienced driver of many years practice?

Don't get me wrong. I am not condoning the practices of joe public when he is driving but police are human and the ordinary bobby is not taught to Class 1. I do know that in situations where they are on a call that their passenger is doing the radioing so to say the driver has to do it all is a bit of a "cop" out.   smile

And if they don't have a passenger?

My point exactly, they usually don't have a passenger, there is a conflict for the driver that the ordinary motorist does not have.

How often do we read posts, about some wrong doing, but the police 'just drive past'

Do you want them to focus solely on the driving when mobile, do you want them to park up and not patrol so they can do all the other things whilst not moving?  or do you want them to be looking for other things whilst on the move.

Police officers are not selected for their driving skills, driving is an add on training that due to costs, many get very little of.

You cant have it both ways.

If every car was double crewed, you would have half as many patrols cars on the road, able to attend half as many incidents, is that acceptable?

Just trying to give you an insight into the unseen world of the police patrol.

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#24 19-02-14 09:09:51

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: Advanced Drivers??

I think its a bit like a car marked for driving instruction!
Make a mistake in that and everybody is your judge! Even though they do the same themselves.
You are expected to be perfect and on top form all the time, unfortunately no one drives perfectly all the time, we may try but we all make mistakes.

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#25 19-02-14 12:15:37

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,695
Website

Re: Advanced Drivers??

I'll say this for our Police force in Queensland, they are super dedicated and their motto is obviously "we'll get you in the end".
Which is where they got a crazy person who tried to assault a stopped motorist, the police tried capsicum spray on his face with little effect, the maniac's shorts slipped down in the scuffle and, well, they got him in the end this time.
The motorist who watched this said it much more effect than when they sprayed his face.


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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