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#1 11-11-13 12:29:32

Daveyboy
Verified Member
From: Nr Alford, Lincolnshire
Registered: 25-01-09
Posts: 377

B+E training

Should B+E training only be conducted by qualified and regulated ADI’s?

There is provision within the Road Safety Act 2006, (schedule 6 section 42) to make all driving tuition come under the regulations that currently govern ADI’s. However this has currently not been brought into force.

http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/Brie … id=SN02844

“extending regulated instruction to all types of vehicles: at present only driving instructors for certain types of vehicle are regulated (motor cars, motorcycles); regulation of paid driving instruction will be extended to other categories (minibuses, buses, lorries).”

What would this mean to the profession, if instructors from currently unregulated categories suddenly had to have the minimum ADI qualification? Obviously the number on the register would rise, and these would then be able to teach learner Cat B. Or are we better staying as we are?

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11-11-13 12:29:32

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Re: B+E training



#2 11-11-13 12:46:09

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: B+E training

Yes they should be regulated.   It's crazy that you need to have a certificate to teach people to drive a car but not if you stick a trailer on the back.  Without any regulation there is nothing to stop unsuitable people who could be a danger to pupils doing the training.

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#3 11-11-13 15:01:43

brod
Banned
Registered: 20-03-13
Posts: 694

Re: B+E training

But many are against regulation hmm

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#4 11-11-13 15:16:03

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E training

If BE needs regulating then it follows that all C and D categories would need to be as well so its either regulate all upgrade training or leave it all as it is

As a 17 year old can do B and BE then do up to CE at age 18 the age argument cannot be used for BE

Perhaps a more sensible route would be to restrict any upgrades from B until the driver has held B for X amount of time

Towing on a B licence is also very common as many caravans and one horse lightweight trailers are towed by vehicles with GVWs around 2000 kgs so perhaps any more BE regulation is not warranted

The UK would have to over-ride EU regulations to change many things


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#5 11-11-13 15:32:01

Daveyboy
Verified Member
From: Nr Alford, Lincolnshire
Registered: 25-01-09
Posts: 377

Re: B+E training

The point is legislation is already in place.

All driving instruction no matter what class of vehicle would then be regulated.

All paid tuition no matter who receives the money would then be regulated by the registrar.

No EU directives would be breached as this comes under members states own legislation.

It would make sense to regulate all. DSA's remit is to set standards for driver/rider testing and training and yet some classes of vehicle are currently unregulated.

Last edited by Daveyboy (11-11-13 18:38:15)

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#6 11-11-13 17:54:56

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,656

Re: B+E training

B+E is the only category where someone can teach in a category where they have never actually passed a test in that category.

And from what I have seen there are some completely clueless B+E trainers out there.


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#7 11-11-13 19:36:09

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E training

reddragonbus wrote:

B+E is the only category where someone can teach in a category where they have never actually passed a test in that category.

Since April 2010 that has been a fact when referring to pre 1997 licence holders

There are also those who passed CE for example and got BE - the two may have the same principals but are very different


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#8 11-11-13 20:12:31

brod
Banned
Registered: 20-03-13
Posts: 694

Re: B+E training

If ever I wanted to learn how to tow or reverse a trailer I would think the person who has more experience in such skills would be the best to teach me. A member of the caravan club for example or a farmer or perhaps as said earlier someone who tows small horse boxes. Far more experience than any ADI. I already know how to drive I just need to learn the art of towing. big_smile no need for regulation.

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#9 11-11-13 20:20:55

Lewinpeter1
Verified Member
From: Morpeth,Northumberland
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 803
Website

Re: B+E training

Hi
Being able to do something does not always mean you are able to teach that skill to someone.
I would defer to those who teach this skill as preferable to a well meaning amateur.
Peter


Dont press that,oh @@##!

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#10 11-11-13 20:45:27

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E training

Lewinpeter1 wrote:

I would defer to those who teach this skill as preferable to a well meaning amateur.

So would a person who teaches LGV CE very successfully but is not DSA accredited be a better BE trainer than an ADI who may or may not depending on age have actually done the BE test ?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#11 11-11-13 20:54:47

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: B+E training

(ROG) wrote:
Lewinpeter1 wrote:

I would defer to those who teach this skill as preferable to a well meaning amateur.

So would a person who teaches LGV CE very successfully but is not DSA accredited be a better BE trainer than an ADI who may or may not depending on age have actually done the BE test ?

Any ADI can already offer B+E training now if they want.   The reason very few do is because it needs specialist equipment and specialist skills. 
The op is questioning whether those people who already do the training should have to be qualified and registered so the B+E training can be regulated.
As he has identified, the law to regulate is already in place, it just has not  yet been activated.

Last edited by Roadmaster (11-11-13 21:35:18)

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#12 11-11-13 21:24:03

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,656

Re: B+E training

Does regulation mean I have to buy yet another badge?

The ADI badge is a basic qualification in teaching driving specifically for the DSA driving test, but it does not cover the specifics of B+E.

It does seem ridiculous however that I need to have a badge to teach in my car, but if I strap a trailer on the back I no longer need to be an ADI.

We already have the voluntary LGV register, although I have heard rumors that is being stopped?


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#13 11-11-13 21:32:15

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: B+E training

reddragonbus wrote:

Does regulation mean I have to buy yet another badge?

The ADI badge is a basic qualification in teaching driving specifically for the DSA driving test, but it does not cover the specifics of B+E.

It does seem ridiculous however that I need to have a badge to teach in my car, but if I strap a trailer on the back I no longer need to be an ADI.

We already have the voluntary LGV register, although I have heard rumors that is being stopped?

I wouldn't expect DSA to miss out on the chance of earning more from selling another colour badge.  As for LGV, the link in the op details that in future all other categories may require a qualification:

extending regulated instruction to all types of vehicles: at present only driving instructors for certain types of vehicle are regulated (motor cars, motorcycles); regulation of paid driving instruction will be extended to other categories (minibuses, buses, lorries).

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#14 11-11-13 22:21:20

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: B+E training

In June 2013 the DSA issued a report - Modernising driver training: reform of the regulatory framework for approved driving
instructors.


The two paragraphs below are from the report:

5. We propose to activate Schedule 6 of The Road Safety Act 2006 which allows more flexibility in defining which paid in car training activities fall within the definition of professional driving instruction. This also enables the regulations to include business owners and those who franchise instructors to provide services. Many of these will be ADIs, and therefore already subject to the various statutory obligations. We are not at this stage proposing to regulate those business owners who are not ADIs. We shall however keep this under review.


6. At its introduction, the following training activities would not be covered by the new regulatory framework:
?paid in-vehicle instruction in respect of other categories of motor vehicle
?paid in-vehicle instruction in respect of category B+E
?any statutory assessment of driving, including the driving tests
?training provision given outside of the vehicle or off-road, including:
   O classroom based training
   O skid pan training
   O recreational off-road driver training; for example mud, 4x4
   O recreational track days
   O instrument familiarisation provided by vehicle manufacturers
?driver training provided by MOD instructors to its own operational staff
?driver training provided by police instructors to police staff

(I copied and pasted it, so apologise for the question marks instead of bullet points)

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#15 12-11-13 07:07:38

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: B+E training

We propose to activate Schedule 6 of The Road Safety Act 2006 which allows more flexibility in defining which paid in car training activities fall within the definition of professional driving instruction. This also enables the regulations to include business owners and those who franchise instructors to provide services. Many of these will be ADIs, and therefore already subject to the various statutory obligations. We are not at this stage proposing to regulate those business owners who are not ADIs. We shall however keep this under review.

Bit of a contradiction there.  They are going to activate the legislation to cover non ADI business owners, oh no were not! We'll just do it for those who are already subject to regulations.
So will ADIs have to register twice, once as an ADI and again as a business?   Does that mean that sole traders will have to register as a business whilst franchisees don't?

Parts of schedule 6  has been so badly written to be unenforcable.

The DSA has over the past two years been giving B+E training to the Highways Agency.  There is a conflict of interest, because they are then testing the people they have trained.   Since the consultation things have moved on and with DSA now becoming part of a bigger testing agency it is now being forced to look again at making B+E training a regulated activity.

Last edited by Roadmaster (12-11-13 07:14:00)

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#16 16-12-13 21:08:37

dog
Verified Member
Registered: 29-10-06
Posts: 813

Re: B+E training

reddragonbus wrote:

B+E is the only category where someone can teach in a category where they have never actually passed a test in that category.

And from what I have seen there are some completely clueless B+E trainers out there.

Can't you teach C1, C1E, D1, D1E etc without having passed those tests too? Since all the old timers got them for free when they passed the car test back before 97, or do they have to pass the test themselves before teaching?

The instructor I used to do BE had never passed that test himself, yet he's able to teach it without ever being taught it himself. Crazy.

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#17 17-12-13 08:18:24

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E training

dog wrote:
reddragonbus wrote:

B+E is the only category where someone can teach in a category where they have never actually passed a test in that category.

And from what I have seen there are some completely clueless B+E trainers out there.

Can't you teach C1, C1E, D1, D1E etc without having passed those tests too? Since all the old timers got them for free when they passed the car test back before 97, or do they have to pass the test themselves before teaching?

The instructor I used to do BE had never passed that test himself, yet he's able to teach it without ever being taught it himself. Crazy.

In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#18 17-12-13 09:20:30

dog
Verified Member
Registered: 29-10-06
Posts: 813

Re: B+E training

So I assume the changes were that you now have to pass the test yourself in order to teach someone else?

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#19 18-12-13 08:00:46

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E training

dog wrote:

So I assume the changes were that you now have to pass the test yourself in order to teach someone else?

For those vocational categories = yes


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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