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#1 23-10-13 20:52:29

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,653

bags of sand

Does anyone know where you can buy bags of aggregate in sealed bags of at least 10kg with the weight stamped on them?

Thanks


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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23-10-13 20:52:29

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Re: bags of sand




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#2 23-10-13 21:59:44

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,299

Re: bags of sand

Hi
Ask http://www.thebuilderssupply.co.uk/Pages/Building.aspx they have small bags at 2.39 but don't give the weight on their website.

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#3 24-10-13 05:29:38

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,653

Re: bags of sand

The bags must have the weight stamped on them as a civil servant has stated that this as a specific requirement.


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#4 24-10-13 06:05:45

MGM
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From: Surrey
Registered: 24-10-11
Posts: 861

Re: bags of sand

Rubber stamp kits are readily available ...  wink

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#5 24-10-13 08:05:19

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,299

Re: bags of sand

Hi

reddragonbus wrote:

The bags must have the weight stamped on them as a civil servant has stated that this as a specific requirement.

I said "they don't have the weight on the website" not "the bags aren't marked", you have loads of builders merchants round the "burgh" can#t imagine the ones selling sealed bags aren't marking them.

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#6 24-10-13 10:32:01

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: bags of sand

I would have thought a 600 kgs IBC full of water perhaps mixed with a little anti freeze is the easiest way ?

The container can be emptied and moved or forked in and out if necessary - got to be easier than removing bags of sand - yes?


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#7 24-10-13 10:36:44

christhedrummer
Verified Member
Registered: 18-10-06
Posts: 1,163
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Re: bags of sand

Not if you don't have a forklift! Plus that's a lot of water to be wasting....

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#8 24-10-13 10:54:39

MGM
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: 24-10-11
Posts: 861

Re: bags of sand

christhedrummer wrote:

Not if you don't have a forklift! Plus that's a lot of water to be wasting....

reddragonbus is in Scotland - there is no shortage of water wink

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#9 24-10-13 11:42:15

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,653

Re: bags of sand

The IBC's are dangerous.

There is 10cm slack at the top when filled to "capacity" with liquid and no baffles, which means the contents can slop around. I don't really want my trailer rolling over when I go around a roundabout.

I have been into building supply places and none of the bags have the weight on them. People don't buy aggregate by weight, they buy by volume. The weight changes with moisture content. The only sand I have seen with a weight on the pack is kiln dried play sand, which is 5 a bag! compared with the normal sand at 1.20 for a similar sized bag.


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#10 24-10-13 13:27:08

the director
Member
From: Yorkshire
Registered: 08-06-09
Posts: 68
Website

Re: bags of sand

I've been an instructor for 15 years and B+E Instructor for the last 5 and this is the single most stupid idea ever to come from our governing body. I have no problem with driving around with a weighted trailer - it adds realism.
But to ask people to un-couple and re-couple a loaded trailer is utter madness and an accident waiting to happen.
Let's wait and see what happens when the first serious injury occurs ?

As for the sand, i too am struggling to find anything with the weight stamped.  At the moment I think I am going to purchase 24 "large" bags of sand from wickes for somewhere similar ( these are 25kg per bag) and keep a set of scales and the receipt in the trailer. If any of the more "difficult" examiners wish to make life even more difficult than usual, I will welcome them weighing any of the bags they desire to.

What a complete and utter farce this is

Last edited by the director (24-10-13 13:46:53)


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#11 24-10-13 14:07:36

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: bags of sand

Is there any value in going to a weighbridge and weigh it unladen. Get a weigh ticket.
Then load the 24 bags and reweigh it.
600kgs should be the difference.
Produce both tickets to the Ex.

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#12 24-10-13 14:26:18

the director
Member
From: Yorkshire
Registered: 08-06-09
Posts: 68
Website

Re: bags of sand

trunkmonkey wrote:

Is there any value in going to a weighbridge and weigh it unladen. Get a weigh ticket.
Then load the 24 bags and reweigh it.
600kgs should be the difference.
Produce both tickets to the Ex.

I'm sure I have read somewhere in all the rubbish published by the DSA on this one that a weigh bridge ticket is NOT sufficient.   In other words they don't trust us to not remove some of the bags once this ticket has been produced.


B+E Trainer
go! driving
www.go-driving-tuition.co.uk

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#13 24-10-13 16:28:32

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,653

Re: bags of sand

I am having trouble with the requirement to have a closed box trailer which are not generally designed to carry dense heavy items, so lack securing points strong enough to lash down 600KG.

Most people carrying such items use flat beds or open top trailers which allow the items to be secured from all sides using appropriate chain or ratchet straps.

I honestly think the people who came up with this have ever used a trailer?

Last edited by reddragonbus (24-10-13 16:29:16)


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#14 24-10-13 17:27:37

the director
Member
From: Yorkshire
Registered: 08-06-09
Posts: 68
Website

Re: bags of sand

reddragonbus wrote:

I am having trouble with the requirement to have a closed box trailer which are not generally designed to carry dense heavy items, so lack securing points strong enough to lash down 600KG.

Most people carrying such items use flat beds or open top trailers which allow the items to be secured from all sides using appropriate chain or ratchet straps.

I honestly think the people who came up with this have ever used a trailer?

I think your last line is so close to the truth Jonathan it's absolutely unbelievable.

Looking at your trailer on your website is it not possible to stack bags of sand (25kg) as like mine the first layer will completely cover the floor at least once...if not twice. This should secure them naturally ?


B+E Trainer
go! driving
www.go-driving-tuition.co.uk

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#15 24-10-13 17:39:32

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,653

Re: bags of sand

I'm sure that would work, but whether it works for the DSA is a different matter.


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#16 24-10-13 20:57:12

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: bags of sand

the director wrote:
trunkmonkey wrote:

Is there any value in going to a weighbridge and weigh it unladen. Get a weigh ticket.
Then load the 24 bags and reweigh it.
600kgs should be the difference.
Produce both tickets to the Ex.

I'm sure I have read somewhere in all the rubbish published by the DSA on this one that a weigh bridge ticket is NOT sufficient.   In other words they don't trust us to not remove some of the bags once this ticket has been produced.

I use the council weighbridge. It is authorised and classed as correct in terms of accuracy. The DSA would be on a sticky wicket to challenge the authority (Trading Standards) who give the certificate.

"There is the trailer load   600kgs in 25KG bags (count them if you wish there are 24). Here are the weigh tickets, unladen and laden."

Separately,

If you could come up with the piece where a weighbridge ticket is not sufficient, I'd appreciate site of it.

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#17 25-10-13 06:35:19

chevronjohn
Verified Member
From: North West
Registered: 15-08-10
Posts: 172

Re: bags of sand

After a conversation with an Examiner I called DSA Technical Standards for more clarification( within the last 7 days)

I was informed that there is no real requirement for the examiner to see weigh bridge/ purchase proof for the load as all that is required from them is a " cursory glance " - if they feel it is necessary.

They have been instructed to ask if the trailer is loaded and is secure- a yes answer from the candidate should be sufficient for the test to take place. The gentleman I spoke to said there has to be an element of trust involved.

Periodically the DSA sector manager will do random visits to the test centre as conformation we are all being good boys and girls tongue

I am happy to pm his details to anyone who is still unsure.

I don't necessarily thinks it's the right thing for the industry but hey ho roll

John


DSA ADI ,DSA LGV Instructor, PCV Instructor, IAM, always willing to learn  smile
www.chevrontraining.co.uk
DSA Customer Test site

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#18 03-11-13 11:31:20

DurdleDoor
Member
From: Dorset
Registered: 30-06-11
Posts: 3
Website

Re: bags of sand

The sheer pointlessness of this rule is breathtaking, although to be fair, some of the 'Private Runners' I have seen turning up to the Test Centre are excessively light. I wait with baited breath to see if any Examiners enforce the rules against the PR's. Saw one go out a few months back with the 'L' plate in the front windscreen...

My own box trailer has a 670Kg plated weight (already a heavy lump to lug around) and 'only' needs another 130Kg (the equivelant of two fifteen-stone blokes in the back) to bring it up to weight. I spoke with the SE, who advised that, in my case, bagged sand, marked with the weight would be fine. So off I went to Wickes, amongst other places, to find, as reported above, that bags of sand and aggregate are sold by volume, not weight. Sand is not ideal, as, even in sealed plastic sacks inside a dry trailer, the moisture content varies considerably, and consequently the weight. Re-checking with the SE, I was told they were not acceptable, nor was any paper certification, as the bags could be 'adjusted' for weight! How's that for professional trust?


It has become almost impossible to find anything commercially available with weights stamped on, barring tractor weights, which are, for some reason, phenomenally expensive. Has anyone come up with any ideas yet? Only 13 days to go.... Suppose I could hire two fifteen stone blokes...

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#19 03-11-13 13:28:45

the director
Member
From: Yorkshire
Registered: 08-06-09
Posts: 68
Website

Re: bags of sand

DurdleDoor wrote:

The sheer pointlessness of this rule is breathtaking, although to be fair, some of the 'Private Runners' I have seen turning up to the Test Centre are excessively light. I wait with baited breath to see if any Examiners enforce the rules against the PR's. Saw one go out a few months back with the 'L' plate in the front windscreen...

My own box trailer has a 670Kg plated weight (already a heavy lump to lug around) and 'only' needs another 130Kg (the equivelant of two fifteen-stone blokes in the back) to bring it up to weight. I spoke with the SE, who advised that, in my case, bagged sand, marked with the weight would be fine. So off I went to Wickes, amongst other places, to find, as reported above, that bags of sand and aggregate are sold by volume, not weight. Sand is not ideal, as, even in sealed plastic sacks inside a dry trailer, the moisture content varies considerably, and consequently the weight. Re-checking with the SE, I was told they were not acceptable, nor was any paper certification, as the bags could be 'adjusted' for weight! How's that for professional trust?


It has become almost impossible to find anything commercially available with weights stamped on, barring tractor weights, which are, for some reason, phenomenally expensive. Has anyone come up with any ideas yet? Only 13 days to go.... Suppose I could hire two fifteen stone blokes...

You may need to read the new rules again.  You need to ADD 600 kgs of weight not 130kgs.
800 kgs is the MINIMUM Weight a trailer must be after adding the 600 kgs.

Like me ( my trailer is nearly 600kgs without any load) you are one of the unfortunate ones who will be towing 1200 kgs whilst others get away with 800kgs.


B+E Trainer
go! driving
www.go-driving-tuition.co.uk

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#20 03-11-13 15:38:00

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: bags of sand

DurdleDoor wrote:

My own box trailer has a 670Kg plated weight

I think you might be confused on that point because the plated weight is the maximum weight the trailer can legally be when fully loaded

I assume you mean your trailer is 670 unladen/empty but has a plated MAM of well over 1000 because trailers used for BE test must have a MAM of at least 1000


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#21 03-11-13 17:23:16

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,653

Re: bags of sand

I would love to see at trailer which meets the B+E test requirements which is only 200kg unladen, my trailer which is very lightweight is 320kg unladen!


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#22 04-11-13 07:13:58

DurdleDoor
Member
From: Dorset
Registered: 30-06-11
Posts: 3
Website

Re: bags of sand

(ROG) wrote:
DurdleDoor wrote:

My own box trailer has a 670Kg plated weight

I think you might be confused on that point because the plated weight is the maximum weight the trailer can legally be when fully loaded

I assume you mean your trailer is 670 unladen/empty but has a plated MAM of well over 1000 because trailers used for BE test must have a MAM of at least 1000

Thanks, ROG, that was a typing error on my part: my trailer has (what used to be known as a 'tare weight') an unladen weight of 670Kg.The plated MAM of my trailer is actually 2600Kg.

I specifically asked the SE how the rules applied to it, and his reply was that the trailer 'has to weigh' at least 800Kg (as this brings it comfortably over the 750Kg 'tipping point' for the licence requirement).

Therefore I only had to add a 'measurable load' of 130Kg to meet the requirement. I was told that, in a random check, an examiner must be able to see the load, whatever it is, bringing the 'real weight' up to a minimum of 800Kg.

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#23 04-11-13 07:57:57

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: bags of sand

I wonder how many have had to change their towing vehicles or trailers to accommodate this extra weight

I know one ADI near to me that uses the same car as mine - SEAT IBIZA - for B and B+E
The car has a max towing capacity of 1000 so if the trailer is more than 400 empty then they will not be able to use that set up

Perhaps I am over thinking this and most box type trailers ok for test are not more than 400 empty or the towing vehicles are capable of towing more than 1000??


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#24 04-11-13 08:33:10

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: bags of sand

DurdleDoor wrote:

I specifically asked the SE how the rules applied to it, and his reply was that the trailer 'has to weigh' at least 800Kg (as this brings it comfortably over the 750Kg 'tipping point' for the licence requirement).

Therefore I only had to add a 'measurable load' of 130Kg to meet the requirement. I was told that, in a random check, an examiner must be able to see the load, whatever it is, bringing the 'real weight' up to a minimum of 800Kg.

This would be at odds with the wording relating to the new rules
https://www.gov.uk/new-laden-testing-ru … t-vehicles

Th minimum 'real' (actual) weight must be 800kgs
However it must be carrying a load of at least 600kgs at the time.

Additionally, as mentioned by Rog, the trailer or caravan must have a MAM (gross weight) of at least 1 tonne.
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car- … tical-test

So the real weight has to be at least 800kgs and yet the test requirements are still for a trailer to have a MAM of at least 1000kgs.

The 750kgs tipping point shouldn't come into it.

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#25 04-11-13 12:11:50

DurdleDoor
Member
From: Dorset
Registered: 30-06-11
Posts: 3
Website

Re: bags of sand

Hi, I have just come off the phone with our ever-helpful SE, who took some time to go away and research this with the DSA and others.
I have now been advised that, whatever trailer is presented for the test (as long as it falls within the current rules), it must be carrying a load of 600Kg, which must be in marked bags of at least 10kg.
The SE himself has phoned around the builders' merchants and other suppliers to confirm what I found: i.e. that sand and aggregate is supplied in sealed sacks marked by volume, not weight.
According to the DSA rules, only marked sacks or lbc's are suitable: no other form of weight is acceptable.
The SE advised me that, in view of the fact that the sacks are apparently around 25Kg, I should actually mark each sack in indelible marker with the weight myself!  The sacks must also be restrained in the trailer, which means you must have a trailer with adequate cargo lashing points, and that it should be covered with a tarpaulin or similar. The tarpaulin should be easily removable for the DE to check the load (I suggest a cargo net for this, which you can see through).
I also raised the point regarding sand becoming heavier if it absorbs moisture, which it inevitably will if the trailer is used throughout the winter. I understand that sand can double its' weight when wet.
The SE replied that the DSA's view is that aggregate should be used instead, as that will not absorb moisture.
So now I have to order 24 sacks of 25Kg of aggregate, which, weightwise, means I will be pulling the equivelant of two trailers around instead of one.
Has anyone done any calculations or guesstimates on the increase in fuel consumption this will cause? Or the effect on course fees?

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