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#1 24-08-13 13:57:24

Rustinho
Member
Registered: 24-08-13
Posts: 33

Grounds for complaint after test?

Hi all, just found this forum yesterday and seems a lot of informed voices. I took my second part 3 test yesterday with the same examiner. At my first test he moved away after cockpit drill without checking his mirrors. I thought this was the error I'd been warned to expect so asked him to stop. We had a 'debate' for over five minutes as to why it was important to check the mirrors as part of observations check. We couldn't agree as I got ever more flustered! I failed as my head had gone as I felt I hadn't changed his mind. Lots more hours with my instructor and steel undies worn I went again yesterday. Same bloke, same issue. I tried everything myself and instructor had worked on, same outcome. This time though after about five minutes he said "out of roll, I'm not checking my mirrors as I think it's pointless. I can see everything by looking right round the car. I'm sick of passing this up to the top and no one listens"! I was gobsmacked.  I then said so if you move away from this point without checking mirrors I won't be penalised, "correct". Later in the test he stopped to admonish an adi for allowing a pupil to perform a parallel park in an area where complaints from residents had been received. I passed second half but failed first as he stalled on turn in the road as he said I hadn't hold him to use gas, I had. In my opening gambit I'd asked him to demonstrate how floe he could go whilst in the car park but after the mirrors debacle failed to enforce it and we were soon out of the safe environment. I even said at side of the road regardless of how much gas you apply the car can only go as fast as the clutch allows. He said he never heard it. My, belated, question is do I have any recourse to have this annulled? What ate you supposed to tell pupils with regards to mirrors and should one persons opinion be allowed to come into a test? I don't wish to reveal the examiners name or location as my instructor is going to speak to the area manager next week.

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24-08-13 13:57:24

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Re: Grounds for complaint after test?



#2 24-08-13 14:34:36

MAZ
Verified Member
From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 838

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

Personally I don't think the examiner should be using your pt3 to vent his anger at a system he does not agree with or leave the vehicle to chastise an ADI who may or may not have seen the notice board in this specific areas test centre, he could have took the reg number and passed it on to local examiners if he himself is not one.

For information, there has been in the past a the tendency  for some trainers to "overdo" mirrors before moving of with 5, 6 and even 7 point checks, many don't agree with it.

If this examiner has a "thing" about mirrors before moving off, it will show up in his stats, so it would be well worth taking the advice of your trainer as to making a complaint.

I believe you can only have a retest if you successfully challenge the the test was not conducted properly, the fact that he left the vehicle to speak to an ADI for something of little importance IMHO would be grounds.

Maz.

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#3 24-08-13 14:39:58

Rustinho
Member
Registered: 24-08-13
Posts: 33

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

He didn't actually leave the vehicle. We pulled alongside and be wound the window down and basically made the bloke look about two foot tall! My instructor days it makes a mockery of the fact he is supposed to be your pupil! He agreed that part three tests were not the place to voice dissatisfaction with the system. My argument is mirrors are clearly in the dsa literature that you have to check. If I'd said its ok to pop your clutch down at 20 mph when they say 12 he'd have flayed me alive.

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#4 24-08-13 15:10:53

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

The actual requirement before moving off is to ensure that it is safe, surely?

If that can be achieved without mirrors then it is OK, is it not?

I think what he was wanting was for you to question him on what he could see, his answers should have confirmed that he had indeed made appropriate observations.

The other issue is more of a problem, had it been me he had tried to admonish, he would have been told in no uncertain terms that it was none of his damn business and a complaint to the TCM would have followed.

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#5 24-08-13 15:15:00

MAZ
Verified Member
From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 838

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

Well nevertheless, an examiner with his own agenda about the system or naughty ADI's should not be testing learners never mind pt3's.

Maz.

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#6 24-08-13 15:19:04

Rustinho
Member
Registered: 24-08-13
Posts: 33

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

His answer to not using the side mirrors was that he could see no more in them than simply scanning all round the car. I felt that you could see lower in the mirror should there be something on the pavement, I used a small child as an example. We were in a car park but I have had it drummed into me that they would make done mistake at that stage and felt that this was it. My argument would be if I hadn't mentioned to another examiner could I have failed for not spotting it? His rant at the adi was you should know that you aren't allowed to perform reversing here, we've had complaints off the residents. You were also blocking the road and we couldn't get passed. The fact the poor ?????? flashed his lights to thank me for waiting went without comment.

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#7 24-08-13 15:20:25

Rustinho
Member
Registered: 24-08-13
Posts: 33

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

Past, got passed on the brain!

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#8 24-08-13 15:24:03

Rustinho
Member
Registered: 24-08-13
Posts: 33

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

The road for full disclosure was on the l test route where I did my part two and indeed did my right reverse hence why adi probes chose it. It was card parked and room for one to pass. Small residential estate, anyone parallel parking would surely have blocked the road.

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#9 24-08-13 20:32:49

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

I challenged a decision on my second part3 test and failed the third. In the meantime I was asked in for an interview and it was decided that the second test would be voided and I would be given another crack at the part 3. I passed so even though my record shows I passed on the 4th attempt I still reckon I would have passed had the Examiner not been a prat. I won't go in to detail on here as it was settled to my satisfaction. The only gripe is that I could have been an ADI 6 months earlier than I was.

As for admonishing an ADI, no one can tell someone not to practice a parallel park.  Even on test I have witnessed my pupil being asked to carry out the PP excercise which temporarily blocked the road whilst the excercise was carried out.

Definately write a letter of complaint as not checking mirrors on test before moving off could well gain enough marks to warrant a serious mistake.  Ask the TCM off the record what would happen to a candidate if they habitually omitted mirror checks before moving off.  Not all people are slim or dexterous enough to do a 360 degree rotation of the head and body so you were right to expect it. Teach them the basics. Let them decide after they have passed their test what they want to do. You will have no influence on them after they have passed.


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#10 24-08-13 21:04:53

Rustinho
Member
Registered: 24-08-13
Posts: 33

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

Many thanks for replies. I am heartened to know that it is possible to have these tests erased. My instructor is ringing the area manager on Tuesday, so well see what comes of that.

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#11 24-08-13 21:21:54

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

I forget who I wrote to now but it was higher than the local manager. The guy that interviewed me was a chap called Steve Froud who I think was responsible for the whole of the South West including South Wales.

I would have hoped prats like your examiner had been filtered out by now.


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#12 24-08-13 21:24:06

Rustinho
Member
Registered: 24-08-13
Posts: 33

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

Sadly not! He's quite a big bloke as well so is intimidating to start with. First time I went my instructor said I'm sure he's just performing in role! Not now we don't!

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#13 24-08-13 21:53:00

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

Well, all the best. Keep us informed how you got on. My examiner had a reputation amongst trainers as being so unreal with his role play as to be upsetting.


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#14 24-08-13 22:18:42

Rustinho
Member
Registered: 24-08-13
Posts: 33

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

I will keep you posted how I get on. First time I went there was a lady after me who was sat in the car park for nearly fifteen minutes, makes me think same maybe happened to her. She failed too. I don't know her but my trainer got a text off hers at the time to say he'd had a failure.

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#15 24-08-13 23:58:33

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

You are not failures! You just got a deferred pass, that's all.   smile


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#16 25-08-13 07:14:59

brod
Banned
Registered: 20-03-13
Posts: 694

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

Really sorry you were not successful on this occasion sad  but before you start the process of a complaint i think it would be best if we helped you to determine if indeed you do have enough evidence for a complaint. Complaints of this nature are taken very seriously by the DSA. If you do not have enough evidence, then any complaint could be viewed upon as sour grapes at the fact you were not successful.

You said in your OP This time though after about five minutes he said "out of roll, I'm not checking my mirrors as I think it's pointless.Think back to your test!! How did you know the examiner was out of role when this was said? Did the examiner actually say the words i am coming out of role think carefully about this? It is very important to your case.

The examiner, in my opinion, was just testing you, testing your ability to present a convincing explanation as to why mirrors should be checked, it is normal practice for an examiner to challenge the PDI to test knowledge, i believe this is what the examiner may have done and you could have possibly read it the wrong way given the pressure you were under at the time.

You also said in your OP Later in the test he stopped to admonish an ADI for allowing a pupil to perform a parallel park in an area where complaints from residents had been received
How did the examiner know the ADI had allowed the learner to the reverse park?
You also said you pulled alongside the vehicle, this would mean that the examiner would now be shouting over you and the ADIs pupil so the ADI could hear, this action would definitely be grounds for complaint but again are you absolutely sure this is what you witnessed? If so then my advice would be to track down the ADI concerned and ask him to write you a statement to back up your complaint or it will be just your word against the examiner and again could be read as sour grapes on your part.

Your trainer may certainly ring the area manager on Tuesday but unfortunately it will be of no benefit to you as the test will NOT be discussed with your trainer, it is you and you only who the test will be discussed with, your trainer can however be present. Before any calls are made to the area manager you must first take your concerns to the examiner who conducted your test. This should have been explained to you by your trainer, i am confused as to why your trainer told you he would call the area manger!!!
Just out of interest, though not relevant to your case, where did you take your last part 3 test?

PS to anyone who feels the need to criticise my spelling feel free I wont take offence lol

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#17 25-08-13 09:40:37

Rustinho
Member
Registered: 24-08-13
Posts: 33

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

Hi, I don't want to reveal the location at this stage as I feel it would be an an easy process to determine the examiner. In the event nothing comes of the phone call, which was initially going to be off the record to see if there were grounds for perusing a case. As the examiner pulled away from the car park he looked all round the car but using none of the mirrors. I asked him to stop and pointed this out. He said quite aggressively what's the point  my instructor says its a waste of time. I tried to give an example that if a lady was standing next to us with a buggy could you see if the child had got out, using the mirrors would allow that. He then said I can't see any more in them than I can looking  out of the window. I tried arguing you could, you can't see door handle out out the window? He then said "right I'm coming out of role here before you dig any deeper. I'm not going to check my mirrors as I think it's pointless. I'm suck of kicking this up to the powers that be and no one listens". Do I said, just to be clear if you pull away from here and don't check your mirrors I won't be penalised "correct". Your second point about him shouting over me is a little off. The learner was reversing to the left and the examiner was obviously driving so he didn't need to shout over me. He did need to shout over the learner to get to the adi though! I was in the instructor/passenger seat so was farthest away. I'm not sure who the instructor was as I live two hours from test centre, if he's doing learners there he presumably was though.

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#18 25-08-13 09:44:53

Rustinho
Member
Registered: 24-08-13
Posts: 33

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

The real he knew about the parking was because we had to stop to allow him to complete it

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#19 25-08-13 10:19:49

brod
Banned
Registered: 20-03-13
Posts: 694

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

If it is that you think i was a being a little off then so be it. I have attempted to advise you. So with that, may i wish you good luck with your complaint and every sucess on your next attempt.

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#20 25-08-13 10:23:59

Rustinho
Member
Registered: 24-08-13
Posts: 33

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

I didn't mean off as in harsh/critical. I meant it as in not correct. I think you must have thought the learner was reversing to the right, hence examiner talking over me. I appreciate your input and no offence was intended. I

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#21 25-08-13 12:27:48

MGM
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: 24-10-11
Posts: 861

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

What would you do if a real pupil stopped, wound down the window, and shouted at another driver? Should you perhaps have done that on the test?

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#22 25-08-13 12:38:50

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

I still say you have plenty of grounds for complaint. You have nothing to loose but the examiner could be bringing the Agency into disrepute if he acts and behaves as you have described.


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#23 25-08-13 13:43:26

boing boing
Verified Member
Registered: 21-09-10
Posts: 86
Website

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

MGM wrote:

What would you do if a real pupil stopped, wound down the window, and shouted at another driver? Should you perhaps have done that on the test?

My thoughts as well.  Was the examiner out of roll?  I've had customers with anger management issues be openly abusive to other drivers.  Perhaps the examiner was looking for a response?  (Although it does appear to be stepping outside the boundaries of role play).

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#24 25-08-13 14:52:49

Rustinho
Member
Registered: 24-08-13
Posts: 33

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

Are they allowed to stop and do that in or out of roll? If it was an l test you wouldn't expect it surely? The poor adi looked gobsmacked. He had a learner in the back too so must've been doing two at once. Two lads who won't have a high opinion of authority!

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#25 25-08-13 14:59:23

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: Grounds for complaint after test?

No he should not do it, he has no authority whatsoever over an ADI.

If he did it to me, he would only do it once!!!

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