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#1 13-06-13 18:49:55

Termy
Member
Registered: 22-05-13
Posts: 4

Few more questions

Hello again,

Thank you to all who responded to my previous post, have taken it all on board and scribbled down a few more queries.

1. My petrol/diesel debate - trying to work out which would be best for me, how do you estimate the miles you will be doing? For example, on average how many miles do you drive in an hours lesson.

In a very rough estimate I guessed 30000 a year, a 60mpg diesel would save me over 1500 compared to a 40mpg petrol - what else do I need to take into account ? I have never owned a diesel so am not sure how they compare with running costs.

2. On lessons, do you check for fake notes from students? (not suggesting that they are dodgy students, but fakes are everywhere) Was thinking of getting one of those magic markers they use in shops but was wondering how that would be perceived by the learner, especially if it did end up a fake!

3. Own car - is it sellable after you are done with it?

4. Selecting a car - many newer models I notice have added safety aids such as anti roll back technology, basically making hill starts a doddle - should these be avoided or can they be easily deactivated?

5. Duration of car. How long does the average car last with the constant abuse before it starts becoming a money pitt liability? Buying a second hand car every 2-4 years even at a low price of 4k seems a big chunk. (still debating buy/lease)

6. Time between lessons. Simply put, what do you do? Where do you go etc.  Is your lunch/parking pay and dispay tickets tax deductable?


7.  Money. I am under no misconception that I will become rich doing this, but is it really such a poorly paid job? I have seen some say its nigh impossible to earn 200 a week from full time lessons, ending up below minimum wage. Is this really the case?! I have made a u-turn in my career path for this after finding out, for many reasons, that I am not cut out for office jobs and this was the only other passion in my life.

I do however hold 2 cards up my sleeve which will hopefully make this work.
No mortgage.
No kids. wink

Thanks in advance,

Termy

Last edited by Termy (13-06-13 18:56:30)

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13-06-13 18:49:55

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Re: Few more questions



#2 13-06-13 20:40:40

ralge
Verified Member
From: Sheffield
Registered: 10-01-07
Posts: 320

Re: Few more questions

1. Mileage varies immensely from region to region. In starting up I also had to cover a wider area than I wanted and go wherever the pupils were.
2. No, I haven't felt the need to check but I did take 2x dud 20's once. I had no idea who passed them to me and, since the Bank wouldn't pass them back to me, no real way of recognising their dudness in the future. 
3. Take the duals out. I have not noticed a dealer turning his nose up at a trade-in.  I presume they will pass it into the auction houses and no-one is the wiser.
4. The jury is out on this. Introducing pupils to new technology without being able to show them the older technology that they will end up driving ... Difficult one.
5. constant abuse? I kept mine for 2 years never really knowing whether I could have pushed it to 3 years. With a quicker turnaround you have extra cost but (if the car is reliable) peace of mind.
6. Time between lessons (30mins) was generally spent travelling or finding a loo/sandwich ... No they are not tax-deductible.
7.  Money - the work can be very poorly paid and plenty of new ADI's don't make it through the first 6 or 12 months. Many (anecdotally) only survive the initial start-up (2 years for me) because of their partner's income.

Last edited by ralge (13-06-13 20:41:44)


DSA Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Dip, PTLLS, Safed for Vans, NDAC/Speed Awareness on-road trainer, RoSPA RoAD Test Examiner.

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#3 13-06-13 20:48:34

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Few more questions

The most important question of all is

where is your business coming from?

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#4 13-06-13 20:55:05

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,144

Re: Few more questions

1. I average around 21 miles a lesson that includes travel between lessons.
    I prefer diesel but more expensive but should be worth more when sold.

2. I don't check but I know somw ADIs do. Not had a dud yet in my 4th year.

3. Yes of course full service history. The fact that it's an ex Driving Instructor car will not alter the price at all.

4. Why deactivate them all are fine for the driving test?

5. Of course your car will be your biggest expence but buying will always work out less cost that lease in the long run. And buying secondhand is always less cost than new.

6. I go home for lunch if I have a long day. If your too far from home yes you can claim for parking and lunch.

7. If your an independent doing around 30hrs of lessons charging around 22-25 quid an hour you should clear around 450 to 550 before tax. Break even point would be 5 or 6 hours a week. To make 200 profit a week you would need to work just 13-14 hours. Different story of course if you are on a franchise.

Good luck,

Martin

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#5 14-06-13 08:44:57

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Few more questions

Tax credits don't prop up businesses.  They are payments for anyone entitled to benefits who meet the criteria set out by the govt

Last edited by Roadmaster (14-06-13 08:52:19)

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#6 14-06-13 11:49:25

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Few more questions

That post shows your ignorance of the system. 

WTC apply to individuals, not businesses.  When WTC is applied for, it's the individual's cicumstances which are assessed, not the business.

There are many hundreds of self employed people who run a successful business, but for numerous reasons, cannot operate full time.    For example, mothers who to look after kids.     They can run a successful business which not only clears all outgoings but also makes a profit, and still be entitled to WTC.

Last edited by Roadmaster (14-06-13 12:19:09)

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#7 14-06-13 13:21:49

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Few more questions

Back to the op, Termy  you say:

I am under no misconception that I will become rich doing this, but is it really such a poorly paid job? I have seen some say its nigh impossible to earn 200 a week from full time lessons, ending up below minimum wage. Is this really the case?!

How well paid you are depends on three things, 1) how much you can charge,  2) how low you can keep your expenses,  and 3) if you can get enough business.

For 1) your rates will need to be competitive with local competition, which varies according to area.   Do some research and see what the locals are charging to get an average.

2) If you really want to work for nowt take on a franchise with one of the big companies.  That will ensure most of your hard earned is taken from you.  If you really don't feel confident about starting on your own, find a small local school who does franchises.   Don't be fooled by the claims that the franchises will get you work.  They are competing with the indies for the same business.

3)  The demand for driving lessons is far behind the supply.  There is simply not enough work for all the 44000+ Adis and PDIs out there.  It's got worse in the last three years and it's going to get even worse in the next few years. 

You don't need a degree to work the figures out.   For every 1 hour you charge you are working at least 1 hour 15 minutes, with travelling time added.  If you want to work 60 hours a week, and IF you can get the work to do 60 hours, you might make a wage.

Those who want to make money from ADIs will always put a positive spin on it.  Look at this RED website, where according to them you can actually earn more by paying them a huge franchise fee than working independently.   http://www.reddrivingschool.com/join-re … z2VygIS4Eq

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#8 14-06-13 14:17:31

Lady-Hynarc
Verified Member
Registered: 09-04-12
Posts: 649

Re: Few more questions

Triker wrote:

I would say that most ADI's are over 25 in which case they have to be working at 30 hours/ week to qualify for WTC. If an ADI isn't earning enough to live on with 30 hours work, which equates to more like 45 hours taking into account travelling time, then its not a viable business.:

I know what you're saying but actually it's not quite correct.  On the basis that every hour instructing probably relates to at least an hour and a half actual working time, if not more, it is reasonable to claim WTC doing 20 hours instruction since this relates to 30 hours a week work.  As far as I know, qualification for WTC is not based on hours earning but hours worked.  If it was the former, many people wouldn't qualify.  Besides, 20 hours instruction a week may well only just cover costs with everything above that being akin to salary.  Needing to claim WTC to make up any financial shortfall does not mean that the business is not viable, just that the business does not have enough work at that time.

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#9 14-06-13 15:41:58

Loopy Lou
Verified Member
From: Berkshire
Registered: 03-11-07
Posts: 554

Re: Few more questions

Roadmaster wrote:

2) ...If you really don't feel confident about starting on your own, find a small local school who does franchises.   Don't be fooled by the claims that the franchises will get you work.  They are competing with the indies for the same business.

...

Those who want to make money from ADIs will always put a positive spin on it.

I agree with what RM says in his full post but as a "small local school who does franchises" I just wanted to add a couple of points which tend to get left out in the attempt to paint all franchises as "bad" and indie as "good" wink

For ANY business, large or small, it's vital to get noticed. Unless you're absolutely unique and tapping an unmet need, you'll have to find ways of being seen and standing out from competitors.

It is absolutely 100% true that no franchise large or small can guarantee work. It is also absolutely 100% true that franchises compete with indies for the same business.

The advantage of a franchise over indie is that quite simply a franchise tends to have skills and a budget that an indie is less likely to have!

In order to make a mark on the market, an indie will need to be on a level with competitors and that means advertising. Advertising comes in many forms from a website, social media, directory listings, adverts in local newspapers, flyers and so on.

ALL forms of advertising have a cost - mostly money, sometimes time and frequently both!

A franchisor has the means to do all this FOR a franchisee - a franchise knows how to market itself with a good website and an active social media presence, it knows where and how to advertise effectively and has a marketing budget that's usually beyond that of a solo ADI.

Also a multi car driving school has much more visibility than a solo ADI...people see the cars around and they remember the name.

A well known local driving school that's been around for a few years also has (or should have!) a good reputation and a good reputation is worth it's weight in gold to all it's franchisees.

THAT'S what good franchises do...and that's why they shouldn't be dismissed out of hand big_smile


It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful...

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#10 14-06-13 16:51:38

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: Few more questions

The biggest problem people face coming into this job is the business establishment period. From my own experience it takes approximately two to three years to get known and about 4 years to fully develop a good solid, regular income. The problem always was with this "Self employed business" is that it was marketed as a job, and in doing that those advertising cleverly made people think they were going to join a 30k per year gravy train.

Those new to the business don't realise how hard it is competing with established Long serving, known and trusted ADI's who get referrals without being asked the price.

The very reason some people never take out a second licence is because they simply have to give up due to the financial pressure, which is a shame because many are good and have enthusiasm.

Last edited by Evan (14-06-13 16:53:04)

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#11 14-06-13 17:05:20

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Few more questions

Many  businesses need help from the bank to 'prop up' their business at times.  But as it's a bank and not the govt it must be more acceptable.  Those who can use the system to their benefit do so.  The others just get jealous.



Evan wrote:

The biggest problem people face coming into this job is the business establishment period. From my own experience it takes approximately two to three years to get known and about 4 years to fully develop a good solid, regular income. The problem always was with this "Self employed business" is that it was marketed as a job, and in doing that those advertising cleverly made people think they were going to join a 30k per year gravy train.

Those new to the business don't realise how hard it is competing with established Long serving, known and trusted ADI's who get referrals without being asked the price.

The very reason some people never take out a second licence is because they simply have to give up due to the financial pressure, which is a shame because many are good and have enthusiasm.

I think the biggest problem is that the vast majority who come into this profession are not given any training in how to run a business.   Training concentrates solely on learning to pass some pre set tests.

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#12 14-06-13 18:00:08

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: Few more questions

Roadmaster wrote:

Many  businesses need help from the bank to 'prop up' their business at times.  But as it's a bank and not the govt it must be more acceptable.  Those who can use the system to their benefit do so.  The others just get jealous.



Evan wrote:

The biggest problem people face coming into this job is the business establishment period. From my own experience it takes approximately two to three years to get known and about 4 years to fully develop a good solid, regular income. The problem always was with this "Self employed business" is that it was marketed as a job, and in doing that those advertising cleverly made people think they were going to join a 30k per year gravy train.

Those new to the business don't realise how hard it is competing with established Long serving, known and trusted ADI's who get referrals without being asked the price.

The very reason some people never take out a second licence is because they simply have to give up due to the financial pressure, which is a shame because many are good and have enthusiasm.

I think the biggest problem is that the vast majority who come into this profession are not given any training in how to run a business.   Training concentrates solely on learning to pass some pre set tests.

I think what you say is very true Roadmaster, often it's been a case of get the money off of the trainee without any business development being addressed.

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#13 14-06-13 18:06:20

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Few more questions

I've often wondered why no one runs courses on business training rather than coaching etc.  There's no point in being a superduper coach if you can't run a business to promote it.

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#14 14-06-13 18:21:10

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: Few more questions

Also a good point and I would say to anyone embarking on this career and even more to those who train them, please explain all of the implications of self employment, we are all in business to make a living but not at the misery of someone else or their families.

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#15 17-06-13 11:20:02

Termy
Member
Registered: 22-05-13
Posts: 4

Re: Few more questions

To add to my already growing list of questions - I have just been on one of the HMRC self employment courses and they brushed on the subject of motoring costs for transport/adis.

Before this course, my uncle who is an accountant, recommended to me that the fixed mileage rate was for the ordinary driver who goes from A to B, so should look into doing the actual expenses cost.

But after this meeting I am wondering if it really is the clearcut best answer.

At 25,000 miles, it would give me 8,250 of expenses, which seems very generous with the rough idea I would be paying in the region of 2-3k on fuel, leaving a wide margin to play with for addional costs. I really cannot imagine spening anything near that amount with the exception of the first year on buying the actual car.

So to me it seems if you buy your own car and plan to use it for atleast 2 years it works out better this way?

Another question which relates directly to the first is that of the additional 5p a mile passenger rate, do we qualify?

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#16 17-06-13 11:53:32

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Few more questions

You can claim 45p per mile for the first 10,000 miles, then 25p per mile thereafter.

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#17 17-06-13 12:07:00

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,144

Re: Few more questions

At 25,000 miles per year your fuel costs are prob be around 3000- 3250 pound with a small size diesel car. If you buy a new car expect it to loose somewhere between 3000 and 4000 per year in value over 2 years. Budget for spending around 1750 for services, tyres, repairs and insurance. Add all that together and it works out at around 7750 to 9000 a year.

So really there is not much difference which method you use. It all depends on your car and make sure you allow for an increase in fuel costs over 2 or 3 years.

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#18 17-06-13 14:36:10

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Few more questions

Budget for spending around 1750 for services, tyres, repairs and insurance

Blimey, are you running a jag?

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#19 17-06-13 20:08:37

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,144

Re: Few more questions

Roadmaster wrote:

Budget for spending around 1750 for services, tyres, repairs and insurance

Blimey, are you running a jag?

No a Polo Bluemotion pehaps i did over estimate or did I?

2 VW Services a year                        350
At least 2 Tyres a year                      160
Insurance a year                              450
Wipers/Windscreen wash                    30
Car wash 5 quid a week                    250
Breakdown cover at least                    40

Now add some service items which may be needed clutch every 3 years at 600 so that's 200 a year
Timing belt is a must at 3 years maybe another 300 so thats another 100 a year
Brake pads 50 a year at least. Also duals at 375 thats 125 if you keep the car 3 years.

Oh that adds up to 1750 so perhaps I under estimated as some allowance should be made for large unexpected accident or breakdown costs.  I think many ADIs under value the costs of running a car and do not allow full costs when coming up with a lesson price hence why we have so many 10hrs for 99 ADIs.

Last edited by martin Williams (17-06-13 20:21:08)

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#20 17-06-13 20:54:55

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Few more questions

Yes I suppose it depends what car you have, and how good a deal you can negotiate when buying it.   

Cars which are only serviced every 18000/20000 miles cut's down on service costs, and the car I have now came with 3 years free servicing.   My previous Ford had two free services in the deal. 
Dual controls should always be part of any deal too.  And many dealerships offer free breakdown.  My nissan comes with 3 years cover.

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#21 17-06-13 21:00:59

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: Few more questions

If that is what a VW costs, then I'm glad I have a Honda.

67500 servicing included, breakdown included, no timing belt to change, wash the car myself so next to no cost for that, ok so petrol costs of around 3,400 own the mileage you quote, oh and the last one depreciated 7,000 in the 4 years I had it. No reason why the clutch should wear out,

I use mileage at 45 and 25 p. it works out well.  And no you can't claim the passenger allowance.

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#22 17-06-13 21:44:55

Termy
Member
Registered: 22-05-13
Posts: 4

Re: Few more questions

It does add up when you put it like that as I never really considered about depreciation as the start up cost of the car would be from my savings.

I get the impression ( I could be wrong) but seems quite a few here buy new as opposed to nearly new. Is this for the warranty/free services as they aren't transferable?

Out of interest Martin as I am iintrigued by the polo myself, just how fruggle is it under a learners novice foot? Never know how much to believe the claimed mpg.

Last edited by Termy (17-06-13 21:48:20)

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#23 18-06-13 05:48:33

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Few more questions

I get the impression ( I could be wrong) but seems quite a few here buy new as opposed to nearly new. Is this for the warranty/free services as they aren't transferable?

It's down to finances and choice.   
I buy new because I can choose the high spec that I want, and negotiate the best possible deal.  If  you are a good negotiator you can get free services, duals, decals etc and still get a hefty discount. 

Leasing is another option to consider if you prefer to rent rather than own it.

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#24 19-06-13 03:40:38

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: Few more questions

Termy wrote:

I get the impression ( I could be wrong) but seems quite a few here buy new as opposed to nearly new. Is this for the warranty/free services as they aren't transferable?

I always buy nearly new. I bought my current very high spec Mini as a 7 month old dealer demonstrator with 7,000 miles it was exactly the spec I wanted. Manufacturers warranties are transferable and it has the remainder of the 3 year warrantly and also free 5years/50,000m mile servicing, I got a decent px price and saved nearly 7K on the new price of the car.

Last edited by RobC (19-06-13 03:42:23)


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