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#51 13-08-12 17:55:54

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Roadmaster wrote:

Giz, the thread is developing and expanding, as many threads do.  Just because your beloved IAM is taking criticism is no reason for you make threats.  Leave it alone and let us have a good discussion, unless posters start to get abusive.

If you look back, there have been insults hurled around by certain members, and this is not acceptable.
The poster wanted an answer to a specific question, this has ended up being another "lets have a go at IAM Observers", this is NOT acceptable.


Giz

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13-08-12 17:55:54

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Re: Local Rospa says No!!



#52 13-08-12 18:10:46

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Don't be so touchy, the criticism is about Rospa too, it isn't personal to you. 
If it's the insults that are the problem then give warnings, but don't threaten to close threads just because it's something you don't agree with.

Are you saying when a question is answered we shouldn't be allowed to debate it anymore?

Last edited by Roadmaster (13-08-12 18:11:53)

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#53 13-08-12 18:32:55

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

As an IAM observer since 1998 and not an ADI I am not having any issues with how this thread is progressing  smile


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#54 13-08-12 18:34:54

Terrier
Banned
From: Greater Manchester
Registered: 15-05-11
Posts: 657

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

If you can't state your opinion what's the point of a forum, people are just too touchy these days, they need to grow up!!


ADI Development Greater Manchester & Cheshire Grade 6 ORDIT Approved
Cardington Grade A  RoSPA Gold
DSA External Trainer Certificate for Instructor Training

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#55 13-08-12 18:37:52

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Terrier wrote:

If you can't state your opinion what's the point of a forum, people are just too touchy these days, they need to grow up!!

The only thing I do not like is when it gets personal

My philosophy is have a go at the post (content) and not the poster (member)


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#56 13-08-12 18:53:28

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

(ROG) wrote:
Terrier wrote:

If you can't state your opinion what's the point of a forum, people are just too touchy these days, they need to grow up!!

The only thing I do not like is when it gets personal

My philosophy is have a go at the post (content) and not the poster (member)

Terrier wrote:

......because RoSPA & IAM observers having been taking advanced training work from us for years, cheeky bar stewards

Maybe bar stewards is a term of endearment in Leicester!

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#57 13-08-12 20:13:05

ralge
Verified Member
From: Sheffield
Registered: 10-01-07
Posts: 320

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

I just wonder how much this discussion overstates the issue i.e. non-ADI observers giving unpaid help to those preparing for an Advanced test.
Just how many FLH's pass through such a process? When I last had a brief conversation with the Secretary of my local RoSPA group there were NO FLH's "on their books", so to speak. That doesn't surprise me since there's little interest in or appetite for AD in the general driving population. Maybe it's different in other parts of the country?
If that figure is known by anyone on here, how many would start the process at £30 per hour?  I guess the uptake would be affected negatively if IAM/RoSPA weren't allowed to use volunteers and, thereby, offer a reasonably priced service. (As it is, I believe IAM are inflexibly a lot more expensive than RoSPA).
Contrast the small numbers (I reckon) to the much larger numbers of FLH's trained by ADI's on a fleet driver development or prep for an Advanced Test and the IAM/RoSPA's activities are much harder to criticise.
As for the suggestion that any ADI is qualified to teach AD, well that means I wasted 5 days of my life and £900 (plus loss of earnings) - so I might beg to differ.


DSA Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Dip, PTLLS, Safed for Vans, NDAC/Speed Awareness on-road trainer, RoSPA RoAD Test Examiner.

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#58 13-08-12 20:14:30

Terrier
Banned
From: Greater Manchester
Registered: 15-05-11
Posts: 657

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Wouldn't know, don't live in Leicester.


ADI Development Greater Manchester & Cheshire Grade 6 ORDIT Approved
Cardington Grade A  RoSPA Gold
DSA External Trainer Certificate for Instructor Training

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#59 13-08-12 20:22:46

Terrier
Banned
From: Greater Manchester
Registered: 15-05-11
Posts: 657

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

One persons interpretation of advanced driving can be completely different to another, and let's face it, advanced driving is mainly defensive driving, it's not rocket science. An ADI who has passed a part 2 test is at a much more advanced level than joe public, it's not just a slightly harder L test and the DSA will tell you that you are qualified to deliver advanced training because of this. Just because one system has slightly different techniques than another does not make it better.


ADI Development Greater Manchester & Cheshire Grade 6 ORDIT Approved
Cardington Grade A  RoSPA Gold
DSA External Trainer Certificate for Instructor Training

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#60 13-08-12 20:33:42

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Terrier wrote:

One persons interpretation of advanced driving can be completely different to another, and let's face it, advanced driving is mainly defensive driving, it's not rocket science. An ADI who has passed a part 2 test is at a much more advanced level than joe public, it's not just a slightly harder L test and the DSA will tell you that you are qualified to deliver advanced training because of this. Just because one system has slightly different techniques than another does not make it better.

This is the bit you haven't answered yet though - what do I get for my £30 an hour?
If it's sitting in a low powered school car with the aroma of nervous 17 year-old to be told I should be a metre out from the kerb normally and don't dare try to straighten out a roundabout, well, you'll make £30 I suppose.

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#61 13-08-12 20:41:15

ralge
Verified Member
From: Sheffield
Registered: 10-01-07
Posts: 320

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

For what it's worth, a definition of AD agreed by RoSPA, IAM, DSA, DIA years ago:
"Advanced driving is the ability to control the position and speed of the vehicle safely, systematically and smoothly, using road and traffic conditions to make reasonable progress unobtrusively, with skill and responsibility. The skill requires a positive but courteous attitude and a high standard of driving competence based on concentration, effective all round observation, anticipation and planning. This must be co-ordinated with good handling skills. The vehicle should always be at the right place on the road at the right time, travelling at the right speed with the correct gear engaged and can always be stopped safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear.”
Maybe it's my general past cr@ppiness but RoSPA Gold (and then the Diploma) were individually sizeable step-ups for me from Part2 AND Fleet Part2 and, in aggregate, a huge step-up from Part2.
For some, no doubt, it is an easier, no-sweat path.


DSA Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Dip, PTLLS, Safed for Vans, NDAC/Speed Awareness on-road trainer, RoSPA RoAD Test Examiner.

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#62 13-08-12 20:57:03

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

ralge wrote:

I just wonder how much this discussion overstates the issue i.e. non-ADI observers giving unpaid help to those preparing for an Advanced test.

I started a post based on this in reply to Wessex earlier - the idea that Observers are taking money (indirectly) from ADIs.

Last year there were something like 4,000 IAM Associates.  RoSPA is smaller but lets say 2,000.  So 6k to spread across how many ADIs - 40,000?

How are you going to divvy that up, assuming Terrier doesn't want them all? tongue

The ADIs who've done IAM/RoSPA?  The Grade 6s?  The Fleet ADIs?  The ADIs that have done coaching?  (Not heard the C word for a while).

As mentioned what's advanced driving?  I doubt normal people would pay to go through the same stuff they did for test, just for a bit longer or on "harder roads" like Part 2 (if that's still being thought of as advanced).  Can we agree on Roadcraft based?  Probably not as a lot of negativity towards anything not DSA.

Then the killer.  The cost.  Skill for Life is £139, RoSPA is cheaper.  For that you get anything from 10 to 20 hours on road including test and membership/magazines for a year.  At Terrier's prices that's £300-£600.  And no recognized test at the end of it.

The only way standard ADIs will make money off advanced driving is if post test training is made mandatory to provide a market.  Trying to kill off IAM and RoSPA won't do it.
Again I say standard to differentiate the few (usually) ex Police ADIs who specialise in AD.

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#63 14-08-12 08:36:21

daveh
Banned
Registered: 23-06-12
Posts: 102

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Hiya, some time ago i enquired into becoming an observer for IAM.

They told me i had to pass the test first and arranged an assessment drive, during this drive i was asked to give a commentry and i gave a commentry as  taught during my instructor training. After the assessment my assessor ripped my commentry to pieces saying it was typical ADI!!(very arrogant attitude) he said i was looking too far ahead and not focusing on the near hazards. This comment left me very confused but he refused to discuss it with me.

Following this i never went back and have never been interested in IAM since, dont know enough about ROSPA to make comment.

Last edited by daveh (14-08-12 08:38:41)

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#64 14-08-12 09:49:18

Terrier
Banned
From: Greater Manchester
Registered: 15-05-11
Posts: 657

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Driver99 wrote:
Terrier wrote:

One persons interpretation of advanced driving can be completely different to another, and let's face it, advanced driving is mainly defensive driving, it's not rocket science. An ADI who has passed a part 2 test is at a much more advanced level than joe public, it's not just a slightly harder L test and the DSA will tell you that you are qualified to deliver advanced training because of this. Just because one system has slightly different techniques than another does not make it better.

This is the bit you haven't answered yet though - what do I get for my £30 an hour?
If it's sitting in a low powered school car with the aroma of nervous 17 year-old to be told I should be a metre out from the kerb normally and don't dare try to straighten out a roundabout, well, you'll make £30 I suppose.

Driver 99

Stop making silly comments, for your information I don't teach learners I'm a specialist trainer dealing with Instructors and full licence holders. It shows you know very little of what new drivers are being taught these days, and by the way there's nothing clever about straightening out a roundabout i could teach a money to do that.

Bye now your boring me.


ADI Development Greater Manchester & Cheshire Grade 6 ORDIT Approved
Cardington Grade A  RoSPA Gold
DSA External Trainer Certificate for Instructor Training

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#65 14-08-12 09:51:31

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

I have asked the OP a couple of times why she went to a RoSPA group instead of going to an ADI but there has not been an answer.

Generally to the people contributing to this thread, if you wanted to go for your RoSPA / IAM tests and you thought that you would need help, who would you go to and why? (If anyone answers this I bet one of, if not their main reason, with start with a £ sign).

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#66 14-08-12 10:43:52

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Wessex wrote:
Driver99 wrote:

If it's sitting in a low powered school car ...............


Come on, answer your critics. What's all this nonsense you are spreading that to become an advanced driver you need to train in a high powered car?

I hope not because I did my first IAM test in a Fiat Chinquecento !! - all 1100 cc of it


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#67 14-08-12 10:56:42

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Wessex wrote:
Driver99 wrote:

If it's sitting in a low powered school car ...............


Come on, answer your critics. What's all this nonsense you are spreading that to become an advanced driver you need to train in a high powered car?

You certainly do not need a high powered vehicle, but it helps.

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#68 14-08-12 11:57:09

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Wessex wrote:
Driver99 wrote:

If it's sitting in a low powered school car ...............


Come on, answer your critics. What's all this nonsense you are spreading that to become an advanced driver you need to train in a high powered car?


Give me a chance!  The site went off last night and I've been busy this morning.

Anyway, here's what I wrote last night:

Wessex wrote:

Why has it got to be a high powered vehicle?  This gives credence to the rumour that advanced driver training is all about speed instead of making good progress by advanced driving techniques.  Don't candidates pass if their car has a low BHP output?  Does it have to be a 2.0 litre + turbo charged beast to allow a person a chance of passing?

For the record, my car smells quite nice inside thank you.

No, you've got me there - people can use cars that won't pull the skin off a rice pudding.  The only stipulation is the vehicle should be capable of maintaining the NSL (that'd be a shock for some school cars I think!).

But you should be able to use the performance of the car you've got, and AD will help you with that.  Maybe some of these young lads that fall off the road do so because they are now in something more powerful that the school Micra and don't have an ADI limiting them to 2500 rpm?

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#69 14-08-12 12:05:09

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Wessex wrote:
Driver99 wrote:

I started a post based on this in reply to Wessex earlier - the idea that Observers are taking money (indirectly) from ADIs.

I refute that remark.  I have never suggested that at all.  Please acknowledge you have made a mistake.

OK, I acknowledge I made a mistake.  My English comprehension was never that good.  This is what you wrote earlier - I'll try and work out the difference in what you said and how I paraphrased it.

Wessex wrote:

I think the reason that there is so much animosity on this thread is because a lot of ADIs are short of work and look around to find that IAM & RoSPA are giving training for "free".  Training that they think they should be paid for giving.

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#70 14-08-12 12:22:02

Jaydo
Member
Registered: 13-07-12
Posts: 2

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

I didn't do any extra training when I went for my RoSPA, and I gold silver the first time and gold the next time.  What the  Cat's local RoSPA people don't seem to understand is that we pass on the information to our pupils, when they pass, as often they do not even realize groups like this exist. It is really us ADIs who are doing advertising and promoting for RoSPA, in the driving field.  But the reason I did the test with them, was for validation, and a shot in the arm, and to prove to my dissenters and critics that woman can drive, and drive very well.  It was  a confidence thing with me, and something to be proud of.  Just go do the test yourself as I did. I did IAM as well, and Advanced with the DIA, DIAond Advanced Driver, and now a Masterdriver. Fleet Assessor, BTech and on track to be ORDIT registered. Cool!  Makes me smile. wink

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#71 14-08-12 14:14:09

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Wessex wrote:

@Driver99 I think in retrospect I should withdraw the request.

I saw your comment as me complaining about ADIs loosing out. I wasn't; just pointing out that others may feel this. I don't.

So please accept my apology.

Big hugs all round. smile

And I bet your car smells lovely!

Right - let's get back to it!

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#72 14-08-12 14:15:48

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

I do understand the ADI system as you remember I asked a question and like you and I we both gave what we thought our interpretation of that particular piece of legislation says.  However as everyone who deals with legislation or law of you prefer that better,knows that certain legislation is written with too much grey areas built in like the Driving Instruction law.

It was introduced to cut down on unlawful Driving Instruction being offered for payment along with illegal tests,and I am talking from first inception not all the later amendments such as the 2006 RSA etc,at the time this type of incident mainly existed in Learners,that is my understanding of why it was introduced.  I have been involved on a couple of occassions in assisting the DSA on one or two of their campaigns to try and deal with complaints made by people in different areas.

Now,as it has been pointed out there is nothing in the legislation that states one way or another the word learner or Advanced it is left to each individual's interpretation of a particular grey area and this is one,you might say it is not,but it is as the burden of proof in certain areas and lets just deal with what the subject is on and thats AD.

I would say that a prosecution based on a case of whether or not the individual is qualified to take payment for this instruction would have to be tried in a court of law especially if the person delivering it could show that he has got the necessary experience and AD qualifications ie ROPA Diploma IAM Accreditation etc etc.

Along with balancing it against a person who only holds a ADI certificate and tries to give AD Lessons for x s factoring in other things such like Years of experience, how often carried out etc,it has also been said that AD civilian is a good defensive drive and I would agree with that.  My Idea of Advanced driving is to be delivered by someone who has been in the field of AD in all manners of situations Respnse,Pursuit,Special Escort,etc who then goes on to Instruct others in the AD field.

I would rather pay someone who has qualified in this field as opposed to anyone who has even taken basic IAM /ROSPA and who does not appreciate the dangers of what pure AD relies upon.
No doubt the key board warriors will attack me on this but I am entitled to my opinion just like the rest of you but I try and not slag or humiliate anyone unlike certain ones on here,we are all good at what we do (hopefully) some better than others . This is my last word on this so I hope that I have answered some of your points if not Sorry.

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#73 14-08-12 15:08:29

MGM
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: 24-10-11
Posts: 861

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Stephen7738 wrote:

I do understand the ADI system as you remember I asked a question and like you and I we both gave what we thought our interpretation of that particular piece of legislation says.  However as everyone who deals with legislation or law of you prefer that better,knows that certain legislation is written with too much grey areas built in like the Driving Instruction law.

It was introduced to cut down on unlawful Driving Instruction being offered for payment along with illegal tests,and I am talking from first inception not all the later amendments such as the 2006 RSA etc,at the time this type of incident mainly existed in Learners,that is my understanding of why it was introduced.  I have been involved on a couple of occassions in assisting the DSA on one or two of their campaigns to try and deal with complaints made by people in different areas.

Now,as it has been pointed out there is nothing in the legislation that states one way or another the word learner or Advanced it is left to each individual's interpretation of a particular grey area and this is one,you might say it is not,but it is as the burden of proof in certain areas and lets just deal with what the subject is on and thats AD.

I would say that a prosecution based on a case of whether or not the individual is qualified to take payment for this instruction would have to be tried in a court of law especially if the person delivering it could show that he has got the necessary experience and AD qualifications ie ROPA Diploma IAM Accreditation etc etc.
.

"No paid instruction in the driving of a motor car shall be given unless?
(a)the name of the person giving the instruction is in the register of approved instructors established in pursuance of section 23 of the M1Road Traffic Act 1962 (in this Part of this Act referred to as the register), or
(b)the person giving the instruction is the holder of a current licence granted under this Part of this Act authorising him to give such instruction."

If there's a grey area there, I've missed it. To give paid instruction in driving a car you have to be an ADI.

Also, the legislation wasn't introduced "to cut down on unlawful Driving Instruction". There was no such thing as unlawful instruction before this legislation was introduced!

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#74 14-08-12 15:16:24

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Stephen7738 wrote:

I would say that a prosecution based on a case of whether or not the individual is qualified to take payment for this instruction would have to be tried in a court of law especially if the person delivering it could show that he has got the necessary experience and AD qualifications ie ROPA Diploma IAM Accreditation etc etc.

You obviously don't have a clue about how the legal system operates either.  It would never get to court because there is no case to argue.

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#75 14-08-12 16:51:42

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

What is the legal definition of the word 'paid' ?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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