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#26 12-08-12 12:01:54

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Terrier wrote:

Driver99
Have any of your observers had in depth training on fault analysis and remedial techniques, have they had any training on the psychological aspects of teaching, have they had any training in dealing with people with special needs, do they deliver driver training every working day of their life, I doubt it a good ADI is way beyond any observer.

Some of them have because some of them are ADIs.  Others will have teaching backgrounds from other professions. 
If an Associate or an Observer don't get on or feel inadequate, they can be moved around.  I know of some Associates who were so poor they were referred back to ADIs for remedial training as the Observer was not equipped for that level of instruction. 
Let's not forget Observers are dealing with people who can drive; that have already displayed the required level of skill and understanding to be let out on the roads.  All Observers really do is highlight the more important areas of driving - observation, planning, anticipation (oh, and let's not forget the apparent fixation with "progress" and getting from A to B like a Walter Mitty copper.... roll  ).

I suppose a question would be do you need the same training skill set to teach post-test drivers as you do to teach pre-test?  They must be different or you wouldn't have fleet qualification.  The IAM/RoSPA defence will be that people are passing the Advanced Tests, which are approved by the DSA, so obviously the requirements are being passed across adequately.  That's not to say they couldn't be better/slicker.

Terrier wrote:

I have dealt with many observers over the years and some of them are well wide of the mark, to the point of being dangerous, so no comparison with a good ADI.

Here's a bit of a shock.  I agree with you!  Some Observers are.  But at least IAM is working towards improving the overall training and reassessment


Terrier wrote:

On your other question, I would charge you £30 per hour for your training and the number of hours would depend on your current driving standard as any goo ADI knows it's impossible to give an accurate figure in hours until the driver i assessed and even then it's not a guarantee.

As far as what you would learn, that again would depend on your current knowledge, a driver who has had some previous training maybe withing their employment may have more knowledge than driver who passed their L test 12months previous. So I'm sorry I can't give you black and white answers, but I suppose an observer could.

I did say assuming no additional training!  But thinking about it, if you're only DSA approved, what knowledge outside of DtES would you be able to teach me?  You won't have been trained and assessed in anything else and are only licensed to teach that?

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12-08-12 12:01:54

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Re: Local Rospa says No!!



#27 12-08-12 14:33:03

Terrier
Banned
From: Greater Manchester
Registered: 15-05-11
Posts: 657

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

You don't know what I've been trained for so your comment means nothing, I will stick with my opinion, if you want to teach driving to any level you should be an ADI, why should ADI's pay year in year out to do their job when an observer can turn up on a Sunday morning and do it for nothing. All driver training should be done by suitably qualified people not amatures playing instructors, and by the way the so called "advanced system" is nothing more than new drivers are taught it's nothing special.


ADI Development Greater Manchester & Cheshire Grade 6 ORDIT Approved
Cardington Grade A  RoSPA Gold
DSA External Trainer Certificate for Instructor Training

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#28 12-08-12 16:16:47

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,297

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Hi Terrier
Do we take it from your last comment that, when you retire you will no longer be capable of teaching, for instance, your grandchildren (assuming you have any of course, just using that as an example)

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#29 12-08-12 16:17:30

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,962

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Ok guys, can we stop this bashing of the IAM now, it's getting boring.
The thread was originally about ROSPA not allowing the poster to do the course.

Giz

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#30 12-08-12 16:34:25

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,297

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Hi

Blindspot wrote:

As far as I am concerned anything that improves the driving of the general public can only be a good thing.  As such we should support the efforts of RoSPA, the IAM, Diamond etc. because in the final analysis they are doing far more towards the ultimate goal of improving Road Safety than any of the fiddling about and tweaking carried out by the DSA

If an advanced driver thinks he is better than all those around on the road him so what. At least he is proud of his achievement and is likely to drive better as a result.

Take your advanced RoSPA test and be assessed by a Police Class 1 driver who is a member of a group of reputedly the best  drivers in the world.

He might fail you because you havent bothered to take training and just hoped that your Part 2  (Rusty)  skills will get you through. You might then follow the pattern of rubbishing the advanced test and blame everything else.

On the other hand you might be assessed  at bronze or even silver level if you have impressed with your skills.  Getting Gold is something you have to work at and, unlike Bolt who has a natural talent and hardly bothers with training, you will need advice and practice.

I do not believe we should knock the Advanced Organisations.  They are working hard on the 'qualified' public.

BS

I think any reasonably competent, literate driver who is already committed to driving at a high standard and is striving always to improve should be able to do an advanced test after studying Roadcraft and practising the skills described within, I don't consider myself a particularly special driver yet that is how I did it; and while I can't be bothered to boast by putting my record down on a signature line I will confess here to having done 1st Gold, 2nd Gold, 3rd Silver and 4th Gold .

Incidently I also had no driving lessons and passed my driving test after 2500 to 3000 miles family driving supervised by my father, and for my ADI I did 3 days sat in the back with another instructor before being sent out in a school car with about 1 month to go to my written theory test and another 2 months till my all in one session practical. Both passed first time.

Last edited by pegasus (12-08-12 16:36:37)

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#31 12-08-12 17:20:22

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Terrier wrote:

You don't know what I've been trained for so your comment means nothing, ....

Well I did ask, "what topics would we cover and how would they differ in style or technique from what's written in Driving the Essential Skills?", but you didn't answer, and your signature is full of DSA stuff so I did a 2+2=4 thing. 

Still Gizmo is on the case and I don't want to fall foul of the mods!

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#32 12-08-12 19:41:05

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Cat8t3 wrote:

Hi

I havent posted in a long while, so firstly, Hi  smile

I am wanting to do an advanced course so thought I would start with Rospa, but unfortunately my local group will not let me as i'm already classed as a professional driver! as I'm a driving Instructor, and that they only want normal drivers to do the advanced course, as they feel that I could gain financially by having the Rospa. Which is rudiculous as learners dont often ask if your qualified let alone got any advanced.

I have been a driving instructor for 3 years now, and wanting to do advanced is purely for my own improvement, not because I feel I want to make more money.

Has this happened to anyone else, If so what did you do???

Thank you in advance

Cat xx

Hi Cat

Can I ask you why did you go to a local RoSPA group as opposed to going to an ADI for a course?

This does happen at some groups for the reasons some have already mentioned so you are not alone.

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#33 13-08-12 07:03:24

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,297

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Hi

Blindspot wrote:

Certainly not your average driver then.

But what happened to your 3rd RoSPA assessment?

BS

Not average but I would certainly not consider myself particularly special.

I was too confident and didn't prep properly with Roadcraft..

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#34 13-08-12 09:52:17

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

I don't want to get involved in an argument which some would say was boring 10 years ago and is still boring now but I would like to make some comments on this.

Terrier wrote:

Driver99
1  Have any of your observers had in depth training on fault analysis and remedial techniques, have they had any training on the psychological aspects of teaching, have they had any training in dealing with people with special needs, do they deliver driver training every working day of their life, I doubt it a good ADI is way beyond any observer.

2   I have dealt with many observers over the years and some of them are well wide of the mark, to the point of being dangerous, so no comparison with a good ADI.


Re 1 above

I doubt that many observers have had in depth training on fault analysis and remedial techniques or the psychological aspects of teaching. I also doubt that many ADIs have had this, I know that I haven't. Have observers had training in dealing with people with special needs? Probably not, the same as most ADIs have not and do not need to have. Do they deliver training every working day of their life? Probably not, the same as some ADIs don't. I don't deliver driver training every day of my working life thank God! How boring would that be.

I am assuming that you have made a mistake in the final part of your sentence? If you are saying that you doubt IF a good ADI is way beyond any observer, I would agree, but I suspect that you aren't saying this. If you just missed out a comer between the words' it' and 'a', I think you are being very arrogant and I think what you have said is ridiculous. As someone has said, what if a 'good ADI' retires and becomes just an observer in their spare time, is that person no good now because they don't have a badge?

As for 2 above, I have also dealt with many observers who are, frankly, rubbish. The same as I have dealt with some ADIs who are as embarrassing as the rubbish observers! As you say, there is no comparison between a poor observer and a good ADI, the same as there is no comparison between a good observer and a poor ADI. If we want to make comparisons perhaps we should stick to like for like, rubbish vs rubbish and good vs good etc?

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#35 13-08-12 11:25:45

Terrier
Banned
From: Greater Manchester
Registered: 15-05-11
Posts: 657

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Ratty it's nothing to do with badges, it's about background and knowledge. If you say that you did not have in depth training on fault analysis then your ADI training was lacking. You say ADI's don't give training everyday of their working lives, well what do they do when they leave home at morning? Apart from ADI's who specialise in things like fleet or ADI training every instructor must do some general driver training.

This discussion is now at the end and I will stick to my principals and I'm not being arrogant, I say what I believe which is anyone delivering driver training should be DSA Approved. END


ADI Development Greater Manchester & Cheshire Grade 6 ORDIT Approved
Cardington Grade A  RoSPA Gold
DSA External Trainer Certificate for Instructor Training

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#36 13-08-12 11:32:22

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

ratty wrote:

Do they deliver training every working day of their life? Probably not, the same as some ADIs don't. I don't deliver driver training every day of my working life thank God! How boring would that be.

I do training every day of my working life, but I don't get bored.  I suppose if you don't have any interest in it you could be bored.

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#37 13-08-12 12:23:20

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Can I just ask a question where does an ADI get his qualification to charge for Advanced Driving lessons as far as I am aware you obtain your certificate of ADi approval by taking your exam via the DSA (part 3) which is done by a SE with learner drivers scenarios.
The law is quite clear on the act of "PAID DRIVING INSTRUCTION" which IAM/ROSPA  does not instruct they coach/guide/tutor so what gives you as a ADI the right to charge for Advanced Lessons when you do not hold a certificate by any authorising body like the DSA,you are all playing on the words in the legislation,which when it was made was to cover learner drivers,and people who are not qualified to charge.

If this was taken to court and challenged there would very unlikely succeed as there is no law against what I have described above and it would need to be legislated for via a stated case as there is case law on "PAID DRIVING INSTRUCTION" which specifically refers to learner instruction. So,without any further slagging off of each others preference to driving ie IAM/ROSPA or Police for that matter it's a genuine question and can you show me in the 2006 RTA where it states that ADIs can teach Advanced Instruction.
Thanks
Stephen

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#38 13-08-12 12:38:36

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,297

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Hi
Where does it say they can't?????????????????????????????????

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#39 13-08-12 13:01:42

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

The same place that it says they can ?

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#40 13-08-12 13:40:49

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Stephen7738 wrote:

Can I just ask a question where does an ADI get his qualification to charge for Advanced Driving lessons as far as I am aware you obtain your certificate of ADi approval by taking your exam via the DSA (part 3) which is done by a SE with learner drivers scenarios.
The law is quite clear on the act of "PAID DRIVING INSTRUCTION" which IAM/ROSPA  does not instruct they coach/guide/tutor so what gives you as a ADI the right to charge for Advanced Lessons when you do not hold a certificate by any authorising body like the DSA,you are all playing on the words in the legislation,which when it was made was to cover learner drivers,and people who are not qualified to charge.

If this was taken to court and challenged there would very unlikely succeed as there is no law against what I have described above and it would need to be legislated for via a stated case as there is case law on "PAID DRIVING INSTRUCTION" which specifically refers to learner instruction. So,without any further slagging off of each others preference to driving ie IAM/ROSPA or Police for that matter it's a genuine question and can you show me in the 2006 RTA where it states that ADIs can teach Advanced Instruction.
Thanks
Stephen


Bit of contradiction there!   IAM/ROSPA don't instruct advanced, yet an ADI does.


The law is quite clear on the act of "PAID DRIVING INSTRUCTION" which IAM/ROSPA  does not instruct they coach/guide/tutor

   

No, you are getting confused.  Instructing/coaching/tutoring all mean the same thing, i.e. imparting of knowledge.  There is no distinction in the RTA as to whether that instruction/coaching/tutoring ot whatever else you call it is basic or advanced.  The only difference is a registered ADI can legally charge for it.

Last edited by Roadmaster (13-08-12 13:41:14)

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#41 13-08-12 14:25:23

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Clever Boy you can charge for learners where in your certificate does it say you are Approved in Advanced,the DSA are only involved i learners nothing else however they would like to change that and control Advanced as well the problem they have is that they are not qualified in this field.
Stick to what you know and probably do best.
Groups like the IAM and ROSPA are here to stay like it or lump it and in the near future they will be rcognised at being able to give the guidance that some ADis think that they are the only ones qualified to give if it were me I know who I would choose.

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#42 13-08-12 14:38:53

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Clever Boy you can charge for learners where in your certificate does it say you are Approved in Advanced,the DSA are only involved i learners nothing else

Well I'm obviously more clever than you.  Firstly, the 'certificate' is a just a licence to show that I am on the ADI register.  The road traffic act states that anyone on the register can give paid for instruction in the driving of a motor vehicle. It does not specify any other criteria.


Secondly, DSA are involved in all levels of driver training, including fleet, which of course is advanced training for FLH.

Stick to what you know and probably do best

Likewise.

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#43 13-08-12 14:40:29

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Terrier wrote:

Ratty it's nothing to do with badges, it's about background and knowledge. If you say that you did not have in depth training on fault analysis then your ADI training was lacking. You say ADI's don't give training everyday of their working lives, well what do they do when they leave home at morning? Apart from ADI's who specialise in things like fleet or ADI training every instructor must do some general driver training.

This discussion is now at the end and I will stick to my principals and I'm not being arrogant, I say what I believe which is anyone delivering driver training should be DSA Approved. END


I gained my background and knowledge from receiving driver training and, funnily enough, being an observer and training officer for the IAM. I then took my ADI exams and passed with no further training.

A lot of my work involves doing covert assessments of drivers. I am not trying to teach them anything I'm just assessing them. I also carry out quite a lot of tests as an examiner, again not teaching. I would say that I spend less time teaching in a vehicle than I spend doing various other things including running classroom courses. There can be a lot more to being an ADI than just sitting in a vehicle teaching day in day out.

The reason I say you are arrogant is that you appear to think that every ADI is better than any observer. Both teach but only an ADI can charge money when in a car and that's about the difference between the two. Some of the best driver trainers I have ever seen were not ADIs but were some of the most professional driving instructors I have ever seen. Just because someone is DSA approved does not guarantee that they are any good, after all just look at all of the training I have not had so I can't be any good can I if my training was so lacking, but I'm a DSA approved ADI.

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#44 13-08-12 14:45:46

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Roadmaster wrote:
ratty wrote:

Do they deliver training every working day of their life? Probably not, the same as some ADIs don't. I don't deliver driver training every day of my working life thank God! How boring would that be.

I do training every day of my working life, but I don't get bored.  I suppose if you don't have any interest in it you could be bored.

I do have an interest in driving and driver training, which is why I am involved in other things such as assessing and examining as well rather than just in in vehicle training. I would find only doing in vehicle training boring and frustrating knowing that there are other things an ADI can get involved in as well as just in vehicle training.

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#45 13-08-12 15:09:21

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Stephen7738 wrote:

Can I just ask a question where does an ADI get his qualification to charge for Advanced Driving lessons as far as I am aware you obtain your certificate of ADi approval by taking your exam via the DSA (part 3) which is done by a SE with learner drivers scenarios.
The law is quite clear on the act of "PAID DRIVING INSTRUCTION" which IAM/ROSPA  does not instruct they coach/guide/tutor so what gives you as a ADI the right to charge for Advanced Lessons when you do not hold a certificate by any authorising body like the DSA,you are all playing on the words in the legislation,which when it was made was to cover learner drivers,and people who are not qualified to charge.

If this was taken to court and challenged there would very unlikely succeed as there is no law against what I have described above and it would need to be legislated for via a stated case as there is case law on "PAID DRIVING INSTRUCTION" which specifically refers to learner instruction. So,without any further slagging off of each others preference to driving ie IAM/ROSPA or Police for that matter it's a genuine question and can you show me in the 2006 RTA where it states that ADIs can teach Advanced Instruction.
Thanks
Stephen

'Advanced Driving' covers a very wide range of driving and it means different things to different people. Some people view the likes of the IAM and RoSPA tests as 'Advanced' some do not. What is your idea of 'advanced driving'?

As you have stated the RTA is quite clear about what qualifications are required in law to give paid driving instruction. It is also generally accepted that the term 'driving instruction' covers lots of different things and a standard is not mentioned in law. Instructing is the 'imparting of knowledge' and, to do this in a car for payment, a person has to be an ADI. The law does not specify the standard of the knowledge or what the standard of driving is the knowledge relates to. Because of this an ADI can teach driving to any standard. The IAM and RoSPA observers do teach driving but they do not take payment for doing so. The only restriction that I know of relating to what can be taught is that, for instance, a police driving school or the IAM or ROSPA would not take on someone who only has an ADI qualification to teach without them having to undergo further training so that the ADI will be able to teach what that organisation wants taught. This is really an internal job requirement as opposed to being a legal requirement. The law is generally prohibitive in that it states what someone can not do as opposed to stating what they can do, there does not need to be a law stating that an ADI can teach 'advanced driving', because there is no law saying that they can't. Again I ask you what do you think 'advanced driving' is?

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#46 13-08-12 15:16:18

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,144

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

This thread has gone so off track and needs to be closed.

It's like little kids in the playground seeing who can blow their own trumpet the loudest.

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#47 13-08-12 15:37:40

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Stephen7738 wrote:

Clever Boy you can charge for learners where in your certificate does it say you are Approved in Advanced,the DSA are only involved i learners nothing else however they would like to change that and control Advanced as well the problem they have is that they are not qualified in this field.
Stick to what you know and probably do best.
Groups like the IAM and ROSPA are here to stay like it or lump it and in the near future they will be rcognised at being able to give the guidance that some ADis think that they are the only ones qualified to give if it were me I know who I would choose.


I often think that if someone resorts to sarcasm or clever comments they are having problems putting their point over and /or are loosing their argument.

To me this looks like you don't really understand the ADI regs. You ask where in your certificate does it say you are approved in advanced. I would ask where does it say that an ADI is only approved for learners? As has been said, the certificate only proves that someone has passed some tests and has paid to go onto a register. I does not say anything else. It is a card with a photo on it, it does not give any information other than identifying the driver and giving their ADI ref number. I presume from the photo you are a police officer and I presume from the car in the photo you are in a RPU? Please correct me if I am wrong. If that is the case I am surprised that you are asking these questions because, unless things have dramatically changed in the last few years which I suspect they have not, ADIs and driving instruction was dealt with VERY early on in traffic patrol training. A couple of years ago I examiner a DSA quality assurance examiner for their RoSPA advanced driving test and that driver gave one of the best drives I have ever seen, far better than the vast majority of police drivers I have examined, so to imply that the DSA only functions at L test standard is not correct. There are some in the DSA who know a lot about 'advanced driving'.

I would like to know what is going to happen in the near future about what is going to change re the recognition of the like of the IAM and RoSPA though, please tell us what you have heard.

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#48 13-08-12 15:41:00

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Agreed, this has gone away from the original question, but can I ask the OP this question again.

ratty wrote:

Hi Cat

Can I ask you why did you go to a local RoSPA group as opposed to going to an ADI for a course?

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#49 13-08-12 17:02:58

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,962

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

OK guys, this is a request next time it won't be a request, so either stay on the original topic, or leave the thread alone.
Giz

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#50 13-08-12 17:38:36

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Giz, the thread is developing and expanding, as many threads do.  Just because your beloved IAM is taking criticism is no reason for you make threats.  Leave it alone and let us have a good discussion, unless posters start to get abusive.

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