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#1 11-08-12 19:32:20

Cat8t3
Verified Member
From: Droitwich - Worcestershire
Registered: 28-08-07
Posts: 339

Local Rospa says No!!

Hi

I havent posted in a long while, so firstly, Hi  smile

I am wanting to do an advanced course so thought I would start with Rospa, but unfortunately my local group will not let me as i'm already classed as a professional driver! as I'm a driving Instructor, and that they only want normal drivers to do the advanced course, as they feel that I could gain financially by having the Rospa. Which is rudiculous as learners dont often ask if your qualified let alone got any advanced.

I have been a driving instructor for 3 years now, and wanting to do advanced is purely for my own improvement, not because I feel I want to make more money.

Has this happened to anyone else, If so what did you do???

Thank you in advance

Cat xx


1st Check Test 15/09/2010 - Grade 4
2nd Check Test 09/01/2013 - Grade 4

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11-08-12 19:32:20

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Re: Local Rospa says No!!



#2 11-08-12 20:22:10

Terrier
Banned
From: Greater Manchester
Registered: 15-05-11
Posts: 657

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

That's disgusting because RoSPA & IAM observers having been taking advanced training work from us for years, cheeky bar stewards. I would have a look on line and find an ADI in your area who deals with RoSPA training and book a couple of hours, you won't need much more then that because you are 90% there with having passed part 2. The two sytems are not miles apart and it should be easy for you to make any little changes in technique to fit in with RoSPA examiners.


ADI Development Greater Manchester & Cheshire Grade 6 ORDIT Approved
Cardington Grade A  RoSPA Gold
DSA External Trainer Certificate for Instructor Training

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#3 11-08-12 21:10:02

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Terrier wrote:

That's disgusting because RoSPA & IAM observers having been taking advanced training work from us for years, cheeky bar stewards.

Really?  You could have retired by now with all that money!

If the only option available to me would have been to go and pay a standard ADI for advanced driving lessons, I wouldn't have bothered.

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#4 11-08-12 21:19:40

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Cat8t3 wrote:

Has this happened to anyone else, If so what did you do???

Thank you in advance

Cat xx

I'd contact their Headquarters in Birmingham and explain the situation.
Some groups are a little parochial and have limited resources, so they see helping average drivers to be their main purpose.
Of course, it's always possible they read forums like this and see a strong anti-IAM/RoSPA feeling and that sways their desire to embrace an ADI into their group.  Not very professional, but then who knows?

I know my local IAM group has helped ADIs in the past.

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#5 11-08-12 21:23:19

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,303

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Hi
Why join a local group? Get roadcraft, read it and take the test.

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#6 11-08-12 22:01:26

ralge
Verified Member
From: Sheffield
Registered: 10-01-07
Posts: 320

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

I'm bemused by the local group's response, staggered actually.  Local to me, they aren't so picky. 
So I never came up against such objections and would welcome anyone wishing to explore Roadcraft/AD.
If that's their response:
- I'd look for another local group
- I'd certainly seek RoSPA HQ's view on it
- I'd do a little more than read Roadcraft (the natural, second-nature application of it doesn't come across very well off the page and it doesn't come without a measure of critical observation and personal practice)
- if the volunteers won't play ball, I'd seek out ADI's with RoSPA Diplomas that work (perhaps) with the local NDAC training provider and/or RoSPA HQ could put you in touch with Diploma holders local to you.


DSA Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Dip, PTLLS, Safed for Vans, NDAC/Speed Awareness on-road trainer, RoSPA RoAD Test Examiner.

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#7 11-08-12 22:16:58

ralge
Verified Member
From: Sheffield
Registered: 10-01-07
Posts: 320

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Cat8t3 wrote:

Hi

I havent posted in a long while, so firstly, Hi  smile

I am wanting to do an advanced course so thought I would start with Rospa, but unfortunately my local group will not let me as i'm already classed as a professional driver! as I'm a driving Instructor, and that they only want normal drivers to do the advanced course, as they feel that I could gain financially by having the Rospa. Which is rudiculous as learners dont often ask if your qualified let alone got any advanced.

I have been a driving instructor for 3 years now, and wanting to do advanced is purely for my own improvement, not because I feel I want to make more money.

Has this happened to anyone else, If so what did you do???

Thank you in advance

Cat xx

Reading your post again and their comment that you might profit from it ... well, I certainly profited from it and no-one held me back - for much of my work I have to have a Gold. So you were talking to someone who clearly hasn't much of a clue about the wider world of driver training and who was being unjustifiably and ridiculously obstructive. How do you think those contributing ADI's on here whose signature includes "RoSPA Gold" got it?


DSA Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Dip, PTLLS, Safed for Vans, NDAC/Speed Awareness on-road trainer, RoSPA RoAD Test Examiner.

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#8 11-08-12 23:09:17

Terrier
Banned
From: Greater Manchester
Registered: 15-05-11
Posts: 657

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Driver99 wrote:
Terrier wrote:

That's disgusting because RoSPA & IAM observers having been taking advanced training work from us for years, cheeky bar stewards.

Really?  You could have retired by now with all that money!

If the only option available to me would have been to go and pay a standard ADI for advanced driving lessons, I wouldn't have bothered.

So called observers, when did they qualify to train another driver. ADI's have to work hard and at great expense to teach driving and have to maintain the standard or end up unemployed. Does this happen to observers? I don't think so, and there's no such thing as a standard ADI, they are either qualified or not.

Everyone I've met who has passed either RoSPA or IAM think they are elite, a lot of them become fanatical and think their way is the only way. Bunch of amatures.


ADI Development Greater Manchester & Cheshire Grade 6 ORDIT Approved
Cardington Grade A  RoSPA Gold
DSA External Trainer Certificate for Instructor Training

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#9 12-08-12 05:36:44

ralge
Verified Member
From: Sheffield
Registered: 10-01-07
Posts: 320

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Terrier wrote:
Driver99 wrote:
Terrier wrote:

That's disgusting because RoSPA & IAM observers having been taking advanced training work from us for years, cheeky bar stewards.

Really?  You could have retired by now with all that money!

If the only option available to me would have been to go and pay a standard ADI for advanced driving lessons, I wouldn't have bothered.

So called observers, when did they qualify to train another driver. ADI's have to work hard and at great expense to teach driving and have to maintain the standard or end up unemployed. Does this happen to observers? I don't think so, and there's no such thing as a standard ADI, they are either qualified or not.

Everyone I've met who has passed either RoSPA or IAM think they are elite, a lot of them become fanatical and think their way is the only way. Bunch of amatures.

A bit of balance ... my original observer had a RoSPA Diploma so was quite well-qualified to observe and comment on my driving.
Did you learn anything from your Gold?  Are you a better driver for it?  Do you look down on anyone who has not got Gold?  Do you look down on anyone who isn't as well (ADI) qualified as you?  Do you think of yourself as the elite I.e. no-one else should be allowed to have a view on driver skill and knowledge?


DSA Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Dip, PTLLS, Safed for Vans, NDAC/Speed Awareness on-road trainer, RoSPA RoAD Test Examiner.

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#10 12-08-12 05:46:27

ralge
Verified Member
From: Sheffield
Registered: 10-01-07
Posts: 320

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Triker wrote:

I agree with Terrier. There's nothing that either Rospa or IAM can sell you that an experienced ADI cant deliver. Just ask yourself why if ADI's are teaching one thing that Rospa and IAM would be teaching something else? Its not logical!

Try it and see if you learn nothing and fail to develop your driving skills and then come back and make the same assertions.
What was it - "every day is a school day"?
Maybe the closed minds and antipathy to learning expressed here ("I'm an ADI, you know, and I can't be taught anything else that has any value") puts off some RoSPA observers from taking ADI's into their local group?
Maybe ADI's make lousy, challenging, rotten pupils.


DSA Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Dip, PTLLS, Safed for Vans, NDAC/Speed Awareness on-road trainer, RoSPA RoAD Test Examiner.

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#11 12-08-12 06:28:40

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,303

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Hi
I still wonder why people want to join local groups. In lancashire there is a local ADI's RoADaR group and I believe they are charging each other for training.

By the way Cat, how did you manage to get a part 2 retest on the next day after a fail?

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#12 12-08-12 06:36:34

ralge
Verified Member
From: Sheffield
Registered: 10-01-07
Posts: 320

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

pegasus wrote:

Hi
I still wonder why people want to join local groups. In lancashire there is a local ADI's RoADaR group and I believe they are charging each other for training.

By the way Cat, how did you manage to get a part 2 retest on the next day after a fail?

Now there's an idea!


DSA Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Dip, PTLLS, Safed for Vans, NDAC/Speed Awareness on-road trainer, RoSPA RoAD Test Examiner.

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#13 12-08-12 09:07:29

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,303

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#14 12-08-12 09:44:34

Cat8t3
Verified Member
From: Droitwich - Worcestershire
Registered: 28-08-07
Posts: 339

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

pegasus wrote:

By the way Cat, how did you manage to get a part 2 retest on the next day after a fail?

Hi

I failed, went to rebook online as soon as I got home and they must have had a cancellation as the next day was available, so I booked it. I even had the same examiner. smile

Everyone has been very insightful, I shall use the links posted and contact the HQ. I may consider the IAM first if I don't get anywhere with them. Thank you everyone.


1st Check Test 15/09/2010 - Grade 4
2nd Check Test 09/01/2013 - Grade 4

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#15 12-08-12 10:48:17

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Cat8t3 wrote:

I am wanting to do an advanced course so thought I would start with Rospa, but unfortunately my local group will not let me as i'm already classed as a professional driver! as I'm a driving Instructor, and that they only want normal drivers to do the advanced course, as they feel that I could gain financially by having the Rospa. Which is rudiculous as learners dont often ask if your qualified let alone got any advanced

How DUMB is that !!

I have assisted many ADIs to advanced test standard as an IAM observer in Leicester

How does helping an ADI to advanced for their own driving help them in any way to assist learners ??????????? - its lost me ......

I suppose it could be deemed that they could charge for advanced driving lessons once they had passed the AD test but so what - that is the drivers choice if they wish to pay more than going to either IAM or ROSPA

Last edited by (ROG) (12-08-12 10:50:13)


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#16 12-08-12 10:49:01

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Terrier wrote:
Driver99 wrote:
Terrier wrote:

That's disgusting because RoSPA & IAM observers having been taking advanced training work from us for years, cheeky bar stewards.

Really?  You could have retired by now with all that money!

If the only option available to me would have been to go and pay a standard ADI for advanced driving lessons, I wouldn't have bothered.

So called observers, when did they qualify to train another driver. ADI's have to work hard and at great expense to teach driving and have to maintain the standard or end up unemployed. Does this happen to observers? I don't think so, and there's no such thing as a standard ADI, they are either qualified or not.

So is your vitriol also directed at motorbike and LGV trainers?  I didn't think they had to be ADIs?  Or as it doesn't affect your income you're not interested in this side of road safety?

The point I want to try and get across is there would be very very few drivers who had passed their DSA Test who would then go back to that ADI for "Advanced" training.  They can't even get new drivers sign up for Pass Plus (before someone comes on to say they do loads of PP - nationally the scheme is dead.)
Those sad middle aged balding men who potter around on a Sunday (Observers) are not taking food off your table.

Good news!  IAM has developed a nationally approved NVQ stylee qualification in Observing - so that might help allay your fears about standards.  Probably not!  smile

By "standard" ADI I mean the bloke who was made redundant last year from a job not related to driving and now teaches driving.  I spend £200-300 a year on driving instruction with ADIs, but they are ex coppers from traffic/RPU or from Police driving schools. 

Can you answer me:
how much an hour you would charge me for AD lessons?
about how many I'd need assuming I'd done no additional driver training since Test?
what topics would we cover and how would they differ in style or technique from what's written in Driving the Essential Skills?

Terrier wrote:

Everyone I've met who has passed either RoSPA or IAM think they are elite, a lot of them become fanatical and think their way is the only way. Bunch of amatures.

lol Says the bloke that proudly displays RoSPA Gold in his signature!
What's wrong with being an amateur?  It's the reason we can do what we do by not getting paid for it.

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#17 12-08-12 10:56:45

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

(ROG) wrote:

How does helping an ADI to advanced for their own driving help them in any way to assist learners ??????????? - its lost me ......

I suppose it could be deemed that they could charge for advanced driving lessons once they had passed the AD test but so what - that is the drivers choice if they wish to pay more than going to either IAM or ROSPA

I was just going to say that and I saw your edit!
They could charge for "advanced" lessons anyway, but by passing IAM/RoSPA they can display the badges which might help.

Before this gets out of hand ADI/IAM-RoSPA bashing, I know of a RoSPA group that wouldn't take new Associates if they'd already passed IAM as they thought it was a misuse of their limited Tutor resources.

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#18 12-08-12 10:58:01

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Terrier wrote:

Everyone I've met who has passed either RoSPA or IAM think they are elite, a lot of them become fanatical and think their way is the only way. Bunch of amatures.

I've never met any who thinks like that and believe me when I say I have met hundreds !!

Most do not want to announce that they have the advanced but seem happy to know that they were good enough to reach the standard required for their own personnal benefit

I was LGV instructing from 2005 to 2008 without having anything to do with the DSA training system and along with many others our 1st time results were the same on average as those who went through the DSA training system - that info obtained from 4 different LGV test centres by talking to other instructors from loads of different companies


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#19 12-08-12 11:01:18

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Driver99 wrote:

They could charge for "advanced" lessons anyway, but by passing IAM/RoSPA they can display the badges which might help.

If they had advanced lessons from an ADI then they would still need to take the AD test with a police or ex police traffic examiner in order to know if they had reached the required standard so that would be another £50+ on top of the lesson price


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#20 12-08-12 11:04:12

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Triker wrote:

The system and MSPSL are practically the same thing

They might mean the same but are the actions derived from them the same? - I think not


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#21 12-08-12 11:10:19

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

ralge wrote:

Maybe ADI's make lousy, challenging, rotten pupils.

I know they do not

What they do often struggle with is switching from DSA style driving to AD style driving

I remember on one run where I complimented the ADI on his commentary and drive as an excellent demo for a learner - LOL - needless to say the ADI 'switched hats' and did a completely different drive/commentary after that comment .... we were both laughing about it for weeks afterwards

EDIT/ADD forgot to say that the learner commentary gave me a good insight into some of what an ADI does

Last edited by (ROG) (12-08-12 11:11:22)


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#22 12-08-12 11:20:34

Terrier
Banned
From: Greater Manchester
Registered: 15-05-11
Posts: 657

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Driver99
Have any of your observers had in depth training on fault analysis and remedial techniques, have they had any training on the psychological aspects of teaching, have they had any training in dealing with people with special needs, do they deliver driver training every working day of their life, I doubt it a good ADI is way beyond any observer.

I have dealt with many observers over the years and some of them are well wide of the mark, to the point of being dangerous, so no comparison with a good ADI.  On your other question, I would charge you £30 per hour for your training and the number of hours would depend on your current driving standard as any goo ADI knows it's impossible to give an accurate figure in hours until the driver i assessed and even then it's not a guarantee.

As far as what you would learn, that again would depend on your current knowledge, a driver who has had some previous training maybe withing their employment may have more knowledge than driver who passed their L test 12months previous. So I'm sorry I can't give you black and white answers, but I suppose an observer could.


ADI Development Greater Manchester & Cheshire Grade 6 ORDIT Approved
Cardington Grade A  RoSPA Gold
DSA External Trainer Certificate for Instructor Training

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#23 12-08-12 11:34:24

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Wessex wrote:

I think their will be a huge shake up in the not too distant future and I also think that is the reason that Driver 99 is going for an ADI qualification now; not because he wants to become an ADI to teach beginners because he does speak very disparagingly about ADIs to want to become one of us himself.  But because there will be a huge involvement in driver training with these Advanced Groups.

<tin foil hat on> There's something going on - IAM attends DSA meetings and there must be some reason that the Observer training is being more formalised. <tin foil hat off>

That's harsh to say I'm disparaging about ADIs.  You should see what I write about IAM Observers!
I think people/organisations should be able to explain and defend their position, rather than just have people accept what they say.

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#24 12-08-12 11:39:45

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Terrier wrote:

Driver99
Have any of your observers had in depth training on fault analysis and remedial techniques, have they had any training on the psychological aspects of teaching, have they had any training in dealing with people with special needs, do they deliver driver training every working day of their life, I doubt it a good ADI is way beyond any observer.

I have dealt with many observers over the years and some of them are well wide of the mark, to the point of being dangerous, so no comparison with a good ADI.  On your other question, I would charge you £30 per hour for your training and the number of hours would depend on your current driving standard as any goo ADI knows it's impossible to give an accurate figure in hours until the driver i assessed and even then it's not a guarantee.

As far as what you would learn, that again would depend on your current knowledge, a driver who has had some previous training maybe withing their employment may have more knowledge than driver who passed their L test 12months previous. So I'm sorry I can't give you black and white answers, but I suppose an observer could.

Again you are comparing two completely different aspects of driver training which have different goals

Generally, but by no means exclusively, ADIs mainly teach non drivers to get their first licence and the aim of AD tutors/observers is exclusively to take full licence holders to AD test standard

The only thing they both have in common is to get the 'trainee' from where there are now to where they want to be


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#25 12-08-12 11:48:23

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Local Rospa says No!!

Driver99 wrote:
Wessex wrote:

I think their will be a huge shake up in the not too distant future and I also think that is the reason that Driver 99 is going for an ADI qualification now; not because he wants to become an ADI to teach beginners because he does speak very disparagingly about ADIs to want to become one of us himself.  But because there will be a huge involvement in driver training with these Advanced Groups.

<tin foil hat on> There's something going on - IAM attends DSA meetings and there must be some reason that the Observer training is being more formalised. <tin foil hat off>

That's harsh to say I'm disparaging about ADIs.  You should see what I write about IAM Observers!
I think people/organisations should be able to explain and defend their position, rather than just have people accept what they say.

The dumbos at IAM HQ have some weird idea about getting observers to formalise things into modules and then to roll out obs training in that format but guess what .... a lot of us who are getting great results with the current system have said ***** that and will carry on just as we are - IF IT AINT BROKE DONT FIX IT
Nowt they can do because we are volunteers

If the IAM want to target problem groups or individuals then fine but our local system includes close feedback from the examiners so the slightest problem is quicky sorted and that includes any personal comments about a particular observer made by the associate to the examiner
A comment such as 'my obs told me to do this or that' or ' my obs was very forthright in their opinions' will be quickly brought to the attention of the observing team and dealt with


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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