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#26 13-07-05 05:48:38

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: round the back

smokeymountain wrote:

The Pearson company which conducts driver theory testing on behalf of the DSA, publish a superb learning to drive manual which states categorically that the safest method to follow when preparing to enter a car is to approach from the front. The procedure is fully illustrated on page 41, complete with colour photograph and text. Great book. Very highly recommended.

Those '' rear enders '' among you care to change your minds ?

If '' front ending '' is the prefered method of DSA's Theory company, it stands to reason that it should be taught at the practical level of training.

Or is the world going completely bonkers  :?:

What suddenly makes the Pearson company a guru on driving?

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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13-07-05 05:48:38

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Re: round the back



#27 13-07-05 12:56:04

Morgan
Verified Member
Registered: 10-06-05
Posts: 202

Re: round the back

What about the risk of bumping into each other, surley one should go around the front and  the other around the back.  wink

Seriously.  If its to pass pt 3 then its whatever the SE wants.  Once you have passed pt 3 can then start worrying about the dangers.

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#28 15-08-05 20:41:37

Airmiles
Guest

Re: round the back

Well, I did say I was writing to Gary Austin about this matter.

He, or his staff, passed it to the Department for Transport to provide the definitive answer.

Chapter and verse from the experts in Marsham Street is ....................................

........Walk around the front so as to face oncoming traffic.....

'Front enders' are right, afterall.

'Rear enders' will need to get retrained and change their methods so as to fall inline with official policy, won't they?

Expect the matter to be properly described in the next editions of Driving Manual and HWC.
.
.

#29 15-08-05 20:44:22

sparkle
Guest

Re: round the back

Well done Airmiles.

Does this mean SE's will become up to date with this method also?

Needless to say i dont agree with the reply you've had.... back for me still wink


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#30 15-08-05 21:22:39

firehydrant
Guest

Re: round the back

Airmiles wrote:

:shock:   Are you seerrriioooouusssssssss  :?:  :?:  :?:

Walk around the BACK  :?:

Which so called Trainer suggested this dangerous technique ?????????????

OMG   roll   roll   roll   roll   roll   roll   roll   roll   roll

For those too young to remember (  roll ), it ALWAYS used to be advised to not cross the road (or walk on to it) from in FRONT of a vehicle because the traffic most likely to hit you would not see you until you emerged. There used to be those Public Information films about it. There were corresponding films advising motorists to watch for people getting off buses and walking around the front, and others warning people to not do it.

I suspect the 'walk round the back' idea stems from all that, but the original reason has been lost in the mists of time.

Obviously there are different situations, but it strikes me that the safest place for the person who is going into the road to get in the driving seat is to walk where the traffic nearest to them (i.e. on their side of the road) has the greatest chance of seeing them. In other words, not to go round the front and let the car partially hide them from other motorists on THEIR side of the road, but to go round the back so they can be seen.

Oh. And the ADI/Learner crossing each other whilst actually IN the road would be the height of stupidity as it increases the chance of conflict with other motorists. The ADI can wait just in front of the door to make sure the student is seated, then go round the back where he is facing oncoming traffic and can see what's coming as he does so, although his habits are not part of the learner test and are moot.

That's why I do it that way.

Are they failing people now for this kind of stuff?


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#31 19-08-05 14:18:55

jeni
Verified Member
From: Poole Dorset
Registered: 05-10-04
Posts: 444
Website

Re: round the back

Hi all

I have just run this one past my SE and he states in no circumstances should you teach the pupil to EVER walk around the front of any vehicle

I cannot believe that the regs would state this dangerous practice

WHY?   :?

We are teaching them for LIFE not just to get in YOUR CAR!

I saw a pedestrian killed in Norway as she got off our coach and stepped out the front - another coach was coming and she was almost beheaded - not nice - maybe she was told to go around the front of vehicles  wink

This thread has almost taken the tuition of walking around the back out of context - we are not teaching them to "walk round the back" but how to enter / exit a car safley

This means teaching the pupil

1) Correct obs before opening the door
2) anticipation of oncoming traffic
3) Timing of entering vehicle
4) securing of the doors

I have several small pupils one of which has a range rover pick her up - it would be dangerous for me to suggest she walks around the front as the oncoming traffic could not possibly see her   --- and she could not see them

I always tell my pupils to ensure that their small children should be made to walk around the back and if possible to load them in the pavement side where ever possible

Remember your pupil may be driving a large car or possibly a van and I cannot count the number of times I have had to do an emergency stop cos a idiot white van man steps out from the front of his van with no warning!   roll

If you have a problem with the pupil facing the traffic there is nothing to stop them from walking facing the car so they can keeps obs front and rear - as they should

So remember unless you cleary state that walking round the back is ONLY for when the pupil is with you --- YOU could be teaching them the unsafe practice of walking round the front of the bus!!   as it drives off !!  wink

Food for thought!

Regards   lol

jeni


Jeni Holland ADI Driving Instructor Trainer (Passed Ordit 2006) Pay as you go trainer
www.abfabdec.co.uk

Poole Dorset 01202 259382

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#32 19-08-05 14:26:06

sparkle
Guest

Re: round the back

Like i said..a billion times..ROUND THE BACK>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

cheers Jen...another sane person.


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#33 19-08-05 16:09:40

Airmiles
Guest

Re: round the back

Jeni,

What experience has the SE got ?

He was trained by DSA, whose bosses in HQ could not answer my question, and had to pass it on to Dep for Transport.

Countries with a far better record of road safety for pedestrians than UK have experts who think 'round the back' is dangerous. They are far more qualified to opine on this as they have the evidence to support their 'round the front' method.

So ADIs teaching the 'dangerous - round the back' method in UK surely need retraining / educating so as to be able to teach their pupils correctly. All in the interests of safety.

We all seem able to quote isolated incidents to support our own, perhaps, preconcieved ideas on this, but the fact is, evidence in other countries with superior records with regards pedestrians clearly prove 'round the back' is wrong and dangerous. You may not like it, but that is the case.

I have just, minutes ago, spoken to the DfT, about it. They do support what I said earlier.

But never mind, CPD will bring it all on board in due course, and we can all teach from the same song sheet. No more dangerous ideas. Just good, plain, simple, road safety ideas and methods.

It's no wonder that some EU experts ridicule what goes on in UK learner driver training and ADI Trainer schools..   roll


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#34 19-08-05 16:58:59

dashdriving.com
Member
From: Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Hu
Registered: 29-11-04
Posts: 148
Website

Re: round the back

Hi,

I am in complete agreement with Jeni. Walking round the front is a dangerous practice if the view is restricted. This will be the case the majority of the time.

Surely, we have to make the best decision based on the circumstances?

If I'd parked a mini just in front of a 32 ton lorry, I probably wouldn't want to walk round the back, because I'd be peeping round the truck. Maybe then I'd consider round the front to be best.

The example given by Jeni of the pedestrian getting off the coach is one of the absolute classics that has killed or seriously injured hundreds of pedestrians.

It's one of the most basic 'anticipation' situations we teach learners. "Approach the bus with caution and look for the passenger that's just got off to appear at the front" - guess what? At least half the time, one appears, and we could have scored 50 points and made a mess.

I don't think anyone sane would suggest that we should walk out whilst traffic is approaching. Walking round the back of the vehicle gives you far better view of the traffic, and gives the traffic far better view of you.

I don't think anyone has seriously suggested that our learners should be on a suicide mission like a group of lemmings. It's just about putting yourself in the safest place that you can.

Approach round the back, step in front of a car, you die.

Approach round the front, step in front of a car, you die.

Approaching round the back just allows a greater degree of observation before making the decision. Poking your head out from the front of a van, when you could actually see the road for miles whilst stood on the pavement behind the van, seems a bit daft to me.

'Blindspots' are an incredibly easy concept, and we teach them early on. So why go and put your whole body into one when you don't have to?

Whatever. You take your choice, I'll stick with mine.

Cheers


Dave Hartley
ADI Trainer for Dash driving

www.dashdriving.com

you never do anything wrong,
you just find new ways of not doing it right.

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#35 19-08-05 17:53:15

Anonymous
Guest

Re: round the back

We're not talking about a passenger that has got off the bus and walked out in front of it into the path of an on coming vehicle.  We're talikng about walking to the front of a car, looking over the roof to see if it is clear before walking around the OSF wing to the driver's door looking out for danger in the direction it may come from.

We know that attitudes change and have done over the years.  Walking around the back may have been taught, I never remember anyone from BSM telling me that, but like changing through the gears, things change.

At the end of the day whether it is back or front, don't walk alongside the vehicle if traffic is approaching.

I wish contributors would stick to the facts and not go off target highlighting some other scenario which has nothing to do with entering a vehicle.

Wessex.


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#36 19-08-05 18:38:42

Graham10
Member
Registered: 17-02-05
Posts: 185

Re: round the back

I call it TED

time of exposure to danger

walking round the front means you have to go passed the door before you can open it, putting you back to the traffic if you are right handed, taking at least 6 seconds after leaving the kerb.

walking round ther back, means as you approche the drivers door you can be opening sooner, and have the door closed sooner, around 4 seconds, I did it in a little over three. there by all most halving TED

going round front or rear, at some point you have the have your back to the traffic.

Graham

Offline


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#37 19-08-05 18:52:07

sparkle
Guest

Re: round the back

Graham10 wrote:

going round front or rear, at some point you have the have your back to the traffic.

Graham

Not if you shuffle sideways like a crab  lol

#38 19-08-05 19:08:49

Airmiles
Guest

Re: round the back

Graham10,

For large vans, TED could be 10 seconds, if walking from rear.
And 40 ton juggernauts will need treble that time.

Disagree that you have to walk past door to open it. You get along side it, and open it, swivel your body into seat in a second or two.

Time elapsed of not having view to rear of car where traffic is coming from is then milli-seconds... So, it's a far safer procedure............
.
.
.

Wessex,

I agree and was also wondering what a norwegian bus passenger incident had to do with the point of how to enter a car safely. Cloud the issue, perhaps?

I also wondered how a vertically challenged person would fair if when walking behind a range rover, they were hidden from the view of approaching traffic by a similarly sized vehicle parked immediately behind the range rover.
.

#39 19-08-05 19:10:18

sparkle
Guest

Re: round the back

I say do the crab thing, then we are all happy.

Sorted!

#40 19-08-05 19:17:32

Airmiles
Guest

Re: round the back

No crabbing!!

DfT won't agree!!

And DSA have'nt gotta clue.


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#41 19-08-05 20:38:19

firehydrant
Guest

Re: round the back

Wessex wrote:

We're talikng about walking to the front of a car, looking over the roof

Don't you agree, though, that walking out from behind the vehicle (in the absence of buses, juggernauts, large tarpaulins, and so on to hide you), more of you is visible to oncoming traffic on YOUR side of the road than there is when you walk out in front of the car, where just your head and shoulders will be seen?

I think that's why that old Highway Code thing about kids walking out in front came from and it isn't just about buses. It was about common sense. That's why they did it. smile

#42 19-08-05 20:47:55

dashdriving.com
Member
From: Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Hu
Registered: 29-11-04
Posts: 148
Website

Re: round the back

Hi,

Jeni's scenario has everything to do with entering a vehicle. The question was about why we are told to walk round the back and not the front.

I find it utterly incredible that anyone could fail to see the relevance of Jeni's post.

Whether it's walking round the front to enter the vehicle, or to cross the road, the situation is exactly the same.

You voluntarily place yourself in the blindspot by walking round the front. Several dead people would probably wish that they hadn't. I would never dream of telling my learners to walk round the front, as not many of them are tall enough to look over the top of an transit van.

Attitudes may change, but common sense should prevail.

Up to you.

Cheers,


Dave Hartley
ADI Trainer for Dash driving

www.dashdriving.com

you never do anything wrong,
you just find new ways of not doing it right.

Offline

#43 19-08-05 21:01:33

Anonymous
Guest

Re: round the back

The point is though, and some seem to be overlooking this, is that it doesn't matter whether you use the back of the vehicle or the front, if you wait until the road is clear before moving to the off side (road side of the vehicle) then you shouldn't get hit.

Peeps are still using the scenario of walking out to cross the road without looking ie walking out in front of a bus, child walking out onto the road without looking.  Most children are a lot smaller than the height of the vehicle and so will not be seen until out in the road.

Stick to the thread topic.

BTW, some one said they would teach walking around the back to check that the boot is shut.  I would have thought checking the bonnet was shut would have more relevance considering a bonnet not fastened properly would restrict the view somewhat if it flew open at speed.  lol

Wessex.


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#44 19-08-05 22:19:08

la.monikita
Verified Member
From: SE LONDON / KENT
Registered: 12-03-05
Posts: 3,064

Re: round the back

2.gif


"What is necessary to change a person is to change his awareness of himself."
Abraham Maslow

21st Century Women http://www.loisontheloose.com/my-advent … /the-team/

Offline

#45 19-08-05 22:20:36

T
Guest

Re: round the back

I can't imagine that this rule has anything to do with the oncoming traffic being able to see you completely as the back of your car most likely will be just in front of the car behind. What if the vehicle behind your car is a van or a lorry? how much of you will be visible then? So i've got to guess that it is more in line with Graham10's TED theory as so far it's the only one that makes any sense at all.

I also like your crab style Sparkle, would love to see it live.


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#46 19-08-05 22:25:18

T
Guest

Re: round the back

Wessex wrote:

BTW, some one said they would teach walking around the back to check that the boot is shut.  I would have thought checking the bonnet was shut would have more relevance considering a bonnet not fastened properly would restrict the view somewhat if it flew open at speed.  lol

Wessex.

When i explain why we walk round the back i tell them that they can see that both rear passenger doors are shut, the boot is shut and before opening their door they check the bonnet too (you can tell with the joint line)


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#47 19-08-05 22:28:40

Anonymous
Guest

Re: round the back

T wrote:
Wessex wrote:

BTW, some one said they would teach walking around the back to check that the boot is shut.  I would have thought checking the bonnet was shut would have more relevance considering a bonnet not fastened properly would restrict the view somewhat if it flew open at speed.  lol

Wessex.

When i explain why we walk round the back i tell them that they can see that both rear passenger doors are shut, the boot is shut and before opening their door they check the bonnet too (you can tell with the joint line)

This is tongue in cheek right?  How can the bonnet be checked from the back?   lol   Or does the pup have to walk 360 round the car first?   lol   What happens if it's raining?  "Oh just get in the !!!!!!!! car!"  lol  lol  lol

It is Friday and it is late. wink

Wessex.

#48 19-08-05 22:39:18

T
Guest

Re: round the back

What car do you have that you can open the drivers door from the back of the car? Would you leave your bonnet opened if it was raining? Would you teach a pupil to?

The bonnet can be checked either before you go round the back (car might just be parked down from their house) or before opening the door and entering the car (rain,sleet or snow)

Please tell me where the problem is here and this was not a tongue in cheek post but i guess you're right, it's Friday night and someones not functioning properly.

#49 19-08-05 22:43:21

Anonymous
Guest

Re: round the back

I don't understand your post and it was my post that I was referring to as being tongue in cheek not yours.

You do it your way and I'll do it mine.

With regards to rain, if a person is approaching their car from the front then they'll go round the front.  If they approach from the back they'll go round the back.  No one likes getting their clothes wetter than is necessary.

This thread has run it's course.

Wessex.

#50 19-08-05 22:49:54

T
Guest

Re: round the back

Why the arrogance?

the "this is tongue in cheek right" was ended with a ? how am i supposed to guess that you were reffering to your own post?

As for you do it your way etc etc What's that about? all i mentioned was what i explained to my pupils in response to something you had heard. Where in my post did i insist or infer that you must adopt this method?

Obviously the art of conversation is lost with you as you clearly don't understand the concept and we'll let everyone involved with this post decide that it has run it's course. Fair's fair.

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