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#1 17-03-12 22:17:12

paulcook2
Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 18-05-08
Posts: 5
Website

I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

Hi folks

I've never felt there were "quotas" before..... But today I feel differently. Pupil was taken on to the City Bypass (Edinburgh). A simple "motorway-style" dual carriageway. Fairly busy traffic @ 3:30pm and the left lane happened to be moving faster than the right... My pupil was keeping up with traffic in the left lane.... and as a result, passed 2 vehicles in the right lane. The examiner then verbally prompted my pupil not to pass a third, and to come off the gas! I thought that was strange.... And then discovered that this prompt formed one of his 2 serious faults.

In heavy traffic I thought we were permitted to keep up with our lane, even if this resulted in some "under-taking". Any thoughts?

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17-03-12 22:17:12

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Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!



#2 18-03-12 07:37:26

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

As there is no law which prevents nearside passing or undertaking then what was the examiner thinking !!

Last edited by (ROG) (18-03-12 07:39:38)


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Leicester group of advanced motorists
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#3 18-03-12 09:28:27

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

The biggest blindspot on any right hand driven vehicle is to the left (as we all know), please don't tell me some are advocating undertaking on the left. I have enough problems with this happening when turning right on roundbouts with pupils, and the clots try to undertake us as we are exiting to the left hand lane. In my opinion this behaviour is one of the most dangerous things a driver can do. I am forever pointing this action out to young novice drivers when I am teaching them. The examiner was right in his decision.

Last edited by Evan (18-03-12 09:30:36)

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#4 18-03-12 10:19:23

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,144

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

Hi Paul,

I expect the examiner was spot on as he felt the traffic was moving at a slow but steady pace not slow and in a queue stop starting. Alas he had 2 serious faults so failed anyway.

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#5 18-03-12 13:07:30

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

Obviously I can see that a learner would not be encouraged to pass/undertake on the nearside if it was just them doing it in the situation presented but the general flow was doing it and I suspect that one vehicle in that flow slowing down had a less safe effect than if it had kept going

If on an IAM test and presented with a driver in say the outer lane of a 2 lane dual doing 55 in a 70 limit would I pass on the nearside? - deffo yes if I was convinced that they were going to stay there.
Would that be such a good idea for a learner on L test - no, as they might not know what small tell tale signs to look for in regards to that driver changing lane

Pass Plus has all but died a death because of that report which showed those doing it or not doing it made no difference to the incident stats so the insurers scrapped the discount
IAM/ROSPA and PP are now all in the same boat - what immediate financial carrot is there as an incentive?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#6 18-03-12 14:18:35

David Underhill
Member
Registered: 15-03-11
Posts: 17
Website

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

What about one way systems? Does anyone NOT pass on the left? The reason it is deemed as dangerous in other situations is not that it is not expected, In a one way system it is. I have seen serious faults for progress where candidates have not progressed enough on the left of traffic moving slower on the right in a one way system thus holding the traffic up behind them.

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#7 18-03-12 16:52:27

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

Wessex wrote:

I personally think they will benefit with a test following their training by a serving or retired police officer.

Although a few observers may be ex/traffic police officers the greater majority of observers are not but the test itself can only be carried out by ex/traffic police officers

That TEST is APPROVED by the DSA but the training to get to that test standard is not ...... how do they figure that one!!


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Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#8 18-03-12 17:01:22

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

Wessex wrote:

Good reply Rog.  As ADIs we have to teach a person a certain way.  I'll stick my neck out and say that, to a certain extent, we do teach people not to do certain things if they wish to pass the test and I'll say no more.

Quite rightly so IMO because your job is to keep them safe on the roads when driving from A to B in the simplest way possible so they remember it all

How well would that go if the ADI said to the learner - well, I know this is a laned roundabout but if nowts there or is likely to be there then you can ignore the lines.

With all the other things a learner has to deal with, having that as well might cause them to miss out some of the basic safety stuff they are supposed to do

Thats one example but I know there are many more

On the IAM course we expect (ahem) those basic safety principals to be there already and then to possibly push those boundaries a bit more with safety first of course and without doing anything illegal

Going back to the first post so back on topic ..... it seems as though the learner was pushing those boundaries and that is not what the DSA examiner was happy with


I hope I show the respect that ADIs deserve on this site because I am not an ADI nor can ever be while the HPT is here but I do have an interest in driver training.
I did LGV instructing from 2005 to 2008 so have an insight into what the DSA want in general
If you folks do a good job then my voluntary position is made that much easier as an IAM observer

Last edited by (ROG) (18-03-12 17:13:50)


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#9 18-03-12 17:23:07

smithwold
Verified Member
From: Berkshire
Registered: 18-08-07
Posts: 716
Website

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

I guess the usual caveat applies - we weren't there and don't know the full extent of the circumstances. 
Presumably the lanes on the road all carried the same speed limit?
Maybe it was simply a case of not choosing a suitable speed for the occassion.

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#10 18-03-12 20:17:21

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

My thought is that if the associates are passing first time and at a good standard then the training/assistance from the observers must be excellent so why not approve the observers?

All IAM observers must now pass the training set down in the manual before they can become observers and retesting is done every 3 years

How much post test paid training do ADIs do?

Last edited by (ROG) (18-03-12 20:22:06)


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Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#11 18-03-12 20:31:10

mon
Verified Member
From: Lurgan Co.Armagh
Registered: 08-11-08
Posts: 418
Website

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

Very interested in this thread guys...had a pupil fail last week for not getting back into Left lane as soon as she entered DC ,coming from a single lane each way at lights with a Left turn lane at junction.She was positioned to flow into DC and then expected to check,signal and get over pronto but didn't thus traffic joining quickly got up to speed and as we are restricted here to 45 started overtaking on left.Now she got a serious for causing this but if Ex could get his hands on all the drivers who down this would he give them a big fat fail aswell lol??


From Striving to Driving.....Lurgan Co.Armagh

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#12 18-03-12 20:52:47

paulcook2
Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 18-05-08
Posts: 5
Website

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

Thanks for all your replies folks, it's always very helpful to tap into all your qualified opinions. I will put this down to experience and I'll be wary of this in the future.

My own opinion, is this:

I have no issue whatsoever with keeping up with traffic in the left lane, whether it be motorways, DC's, or any multi-lane carriageway, so long as you remain aware that traffic on your right might not expect the "undertake". Therefore one should exercise caution. The reason I feel this way? Let's think about the alternative.... If we don't keep up with our (left) lane, we will create a huge gap ahead of us..... possibly for some considerable time.... Na, that's daft. Fire ahead I'd say (with caution).

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#13 18-03-12 21:12:54

Madiggy
Verified Member
From: UK
Registered: 07-06-05
Posts: 364

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

If the scenario described turned sour and an incident occurred, by ignoring advice from the highway code, the offence of careless driving is committed. The moment recognised advice is ignored the driver is careless.


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#14 19-03-12 10:12:49

Mentor
Verified Member
Registered: 22-10-05
Posts: 375

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

This is a case of real world driving v passing the test driving. Sadly the 2 are not the same. Having knowledge of the road in question I would say , in the real world you would keep up with the flow in the left lane, which is what the op's pupil did. In the world of the DSA test criteria it is a no no and so the pupil fails. Just one of the many variables encountered on test to keep life interesting. I had a similar case some years ago on the A8 at Baillieston where the pupil was approaching traffic lights in the left lane of a 3 lane DC. As she arrived at the lights they changed to green so she lifted off the brake and kept going, thus passing a vehicle in the middle lane which was slow to get moving. Result a fail.  Bad luck, poor judgement or harsh examiner?

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#15 19-03-12 13:14:37

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

Madiggy wrote:

If the scenario described turned sour and an incident occurred, by ignoring advice from the highway code, the offence of careless driving is committed. The moment recognised advice is ignored the driver is careless.

that would depend entirely on the situation and the actions at the time by each of the drivers involved

if the driver on the inside deliberately went next to the driver indicating and already moving to the nearside then it DWDCAT for inside driver

but if the driver inside was already there and the driver on the outside decided to move lanes without checking correctly then they get DWDCAT


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#16 19-03-12 18:45:18

m6northtoheaven
Verified Member
Registered: 04-01-09
Posts: 581

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

so the moral of the story is, if you drive to rospa/iam standard you can ignore the highway code! Unless you're on a learner driving test! big_smile

M6


The inclanation of the optic is as adequate as a twitch of the cranium like a quadraped divoid of its visionary capacity!

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#17 19-03-12 19:59:52

Billinghamdrivingschool
Member
From: Billingham
Registered: 19-03-12
Posts: 8
Website

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

Hi.
I'm new here but it does sound like a tricky one. Firstly he is quite rightly matching the speed of the traffic in the left lane but as a result he is undertaking. I expect he should have joined at the appropriate speed and then slowed to the speed of the traffic in the right lane. The problem is that undertaking is allowed in slow moving traffic. However can anyone say what is slow moving traffic? Surely it is all relative i.e. is 50mph considered slow traffic when the limit is 70mph?

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#18 20-03-12 10:28:02

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

m6northtoheaven wrote:

so the moral of the story is, if you drive to rospa/iam standard you can ignore the highway code!

err . nope, but the highway code can be fully used to full advantage


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#19 20-03-12 10:29:34

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

Billinghamdrivingschool wrote:

... he is undertaking.

There is not a - no undertaking law


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#20 21-03-12 21:52:34

martin_t
Verified Member
Registered: 30-12-06
Posts: 357

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

Yep, no law forbidding undertaking. On my IAM test I passed a vehicle in lane 2 while driving in lane 1 on the M1. It certainly was not 'queues' of traffic, it was quite free flowing (but what does queue really mean? In an nsl it certainly can't mean nose to tail as a four second space is required to slot in between vehicles (ish)).

I didn't fail my test, and I'd be perfectly happy to do the same manoeuvre again with a police traffic vehicle following me.

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#21 22-03-12 08:54:17

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

Wessex wrote:

Highway Code makes full allowance for undertaking on a motorway.

Queuing traffic is traffic in a queue, nose to tail travelling around walking/cycling pace?

Take a look at M1 north J21 to J21A where lane 1 is not marked differently to the other 3 lanes of 4 but where many do not use it because lane 1 turns into the slip road for J21A

This means for well over a mile much of the traffic uses lanes 2, 3 & 4 as the main carriageway especially LGVs

Does this mean that if going for J21A and safe to pass those in lane 2 those in lane 1 cannot pass?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#22 23-03-12 19:54:47

David Underhill
Member
Registered: 15-03-11
Posts: 17
Website

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

Wessex wrote:

Highway Code makes full allowance for undertaking on a motorway.

Queuing traffic is traffic in a queue, nose to tail travelling around walking/cycling pace?

Where in the highway code is the definition of a queue on a motorway?

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#23 24-03-12 10:34:34

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

When there is a difference in the lane markings between the lanes then they become seperate carriageways but if before that point drivers have set up for that and its safe to pass nearside then fine


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#24 24-03-12 15:58:33

Billinghamdrivingschool
Member
From: Billingham
Registered: 19-03-12
Posts: 8
Website

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

(ROG) wrote:
Billinghamdrivingschool wrote:

... he is undertaking.

There is not a - no undertaking law

Ok... so there is no undertaking law so why do pupils fail their driving test for undertaking?

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#25 24-03-12 16:28:32

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: I'm an ADI, and disagree with this test result...!

Billinghamdrivingschool  wrote:

Ok... so there is no undertaking law so why do pupils fail their driving test for undertaking?

In which box on the DL25 is undertaking marked?

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