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#1 06-09-11 22:16:34

Hilary Hughes
Verified Member
From: Stockport, Manchester
Registered: 25-06-04
Posts: 1,232
Website

Thank you Excelsior Training

Just saying Thank you to James from http://www.excelsiortraining.co.uk/about.php who kindly came to speak to our local group this evening. It was a compact talk and James is very much upfront about the current economic situation which affects people's chances of completing further training.

Being quite local to us, he kindly did the talk for free ( well, apart from the price of  a coffee ).

Particularly interesting were the slides on Coaching which covered the aspects of Kinaesthetic, Visual and Auditory with a view to deciding whether your  pupil would benefit from this style of teaching or otherwise. He also gave us a little quiz to do to ascertain our type.

As James charges an hourly rate rather than asking for heaps of money up front, I have decided to do the IAM with him ( soon ) taking into account that either it or Rospa may replace Pass Plus.

James, just sorry there were a few negative faces but I guess you can't win them all...:)

Hilary.

PS. I also understand he has 100% pass rate for training ADI's!!


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06-09-11 22:16:34

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Re: Thank you Excelsior Training



#2 08-09-11 12:34:29

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

Thanks for kind comments Hilary, as yet no requests for CPD certifictes mind  big_smile


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#3 08-09-11 12:43:26

Hilary Hughes
Verified Member
From: Stockport, Manchester
Registered: 25-06-04
Posts: 1,232
Website

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

Ahhh, I hadn't realised you were Hector. ;-)

If it suddenly becomes compulsory, I would imagine you'll be swamped with requests for them. Actually, I would like one sending please. Drop me a pm for details on how.

Thanks,

Hilary.


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#4 08-09-11 16:15:18

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

As James charges an hourly rate rather than asking for heaps of money up front, I have decided to do the IAM with him ( soon ) taking into account that either it or Rospa may replace Pass Plus.

Bit confused .... are you considering paying an instructor for IAM when it can be done for £139 all inclusive (apart from time and fuel)


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#5 08-09-11 17:24:05

Hilary Hughes
Verified Member
From: Stockport, Manchester
Registered: 25-06-04
Posts: 1,232
Website

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

I'm not sure what you mean Rog. What does the all be done include, exactly?

Hilary


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#6 08-09-11 17:41:53

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

He means you get done by paying £139 for non qualified tuition  big_smile

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#7 08-09-11 18:23:56

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

He means you get done by paying £139 for non qualified tuition  big_smile

big_smile big_smile On a serious note from experience an ADI taking 'tuition' from an unqualified person isnt going to work. The idea behind Rospa and Iam groups isnt really to 'train or observe' qualified driver trainers, its for the general public. And an ADI often gets a negative respons if they try! Unless of course the observer is a qualified ADI

Before theres a barage from Rospa and Iam observers, just my opionion and experience form other ADI's experiences!   


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#8 08-09-11 18:37:59

on board training
Guest

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

Hi Hilary,

Having had quality training from James or 'Hector' and watched him with others I would not consider anyone else (except maybe me if I was doing it yikes)

Brian


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#9 08-09-11 19:51:38

Hilary Hughes
Verified Member
From: Stockport, Manchester
Registered: 25-06-04
Posts: 1,232
Website

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

(except maybe me if I was doing it yikes)

Naturally...;-)

Hilary


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#10 09-09-11 10:14:21

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

I'm not sure what you mean Rog. What does the all be done include, exactly?

Hilary

The £139 includes all the books, the QUALIFIED observers time, the test fee and a years IAM membership

For most groups the observed runs are done at a time to suit both the associate and the observer

the observer will advise the associate when they are considered test ready

Why anyone would want to pay extra is beyond me


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#11 09-09-11 10:41:50

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

the QUALIFIED observers time

What are the qualifications?  Only registered ADIs can legally charge.

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#12 09-09-11 10:57:25

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

Interesting Rog, so your saying an observer (non ADI) can train an ADI to pass the test? And could you clarify test fees?
James


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#13 09-09-11 13:29:08

on board training
Guest

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

Hi all,

I tihnk we all know this is the can of worms as has been discussed on here many times and also by officials from DSA and IAM and RoSPA.

It is down to what is classed as instruction for cat B and what is for payment or not.

Volunteer observers or tutors don't get paid but the debate is also what does membership of the local group give them ie is it the observer/tutors time they are paying to access or is it other Group business.

As we know it has been going on for years since mid 50s and unlikely to change.

But as another post on here, knwoing what i know now, while my ROSPA tutor was fantastic and I got Gold 1st time my IAM tutor left a lot to be desired and it was nowhere near the standard I expected - if as a qualified ADI I was looking for Advanced Training, knowing what I know now I would definately look towards an experienced ADI and instructor trainer for it.

Brian

Brian


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#14 09-09-11 18:43:33

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

Interesting Rog, so your saying an observer (non ADI) can train an ADI to pass the test? And could you clarify test fees?
James

I have 'trained' (advised) at least 4 (could be 6) ADIs to advanced test standard and I do not charge as I am an IAM (senior) observer

Out of the £139 all in price the test fee included is about £60 of that and is paid to the ex/police traffic IAM examiner by IAM HQ

ADD - I forgot - have got 2 LGV DSA registered instructors to IAM car and LGV advanced test standard as well - do they count?

There are a few IAM observers now and many in the past that have left a lot to be desired but with the current cross checking and training that is thankfully becoming a thing of the past

Our group have many ADIs who are also observers but they do the IAM stuff for FREE


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#15 12-09-11 18:23:59

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

Interesting Rog, so your saying an observer (non ADI) can train an ADI to pass the test?

Why not?  I observed one and he passed the IAM test.

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#16 13-09-11 13:10:03

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

There does seem to be some ADIs who think that because someone is not an ADI then they are incapable of teaching other drivers.

That may well be true in most cases where the driver is a B licence provisional holder but not for post test drivers

The skills that are required for teaching a provisional licence holder are different from the skills required to teach off road, LGV/PCV, or advanced driving for example

For post test 'training' the licence already held is not at risk - if it was then that would be very different!!

Do ADIs that also act as observers for advanced driving organisations have an extra perspective? - DEFFO A YES - does the end result change in either case? - NO and that is comparing test pass figures for both sets
Those doing their advanced either with an ADI or not are also taking the same number of runs within the same timeframe in general
The same can be stated for those doing LGV training & tests

As a non ADI could I teach (for free) a provisional B licence holder to pass a DSA test as well as an ADI? - I doubt that very much
As a non ADI could I teach a full B licence holder to pass a LGV test as well as an ADI? - DEFFO YES but that's not to say that everyone could

Regarding the LGV ..... with 18 years olds now able to take the C & CE then perhaps an ADI would be better for them!! - LOL

Bet I get some stick from posting this lot


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#17 14-09-11 08:03:54

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

There does seem to be some ADIs who think that because someone is not an ADI then they are incapable of teaching other drivers.

That may well be true in most cases where the driver is a B licence provisional holder but not for post test drivers

The skills that are required for teaching a provisional licence holder are different from the skills required to teach off road, LGV/PCV, or advanced driving for example

For post test 'training' the licence already held is not at risk - if it was then that would be very different!!

Do ADIs that also act as observers for advanced driving organisations have an extra perspective? - DEFFO A YES - does the end result change in either case? - NO and that is comparing test pass figures for both sets
Those doing their advanced either with an ADI or not are also taking the same number of runs within the same timeframe in general
The same can be stated for those doing LGV training & tests

As a non ADI could I teach (for free) a provisional B licence holder to pass a DSA test as well as an ADI? - I doubt that very much
As a non ADI could I teach a full B licence holder to pass a LGV test as well as an ADI? - DEFFO YES but that's not to say that everyone could

Regarding the LGV ..... with 18 years olds now able to take the C & CE then perhaps an ADI would be better for them!! - LOL

Bet I get some stick from posting this lot

Hi Rog defo not stick! The point i was trying to make was in theory only an ADI can 'train'! By law. And from previous experience from many ADI's they have been badly advised by Rospa observers who werent qualified to give the advice, and couldnt back up reasoning behind the advice, but as you mention im sure that has changed recently.

In answer to origonal question as to costs and why anyone would come to me as oppossed to 'free' observing TBH i can get any (Well almost any)  ADI to IAM test standard with a couple of training sessions perhaps making it a cheaper route to do the test?

Please dont think im getting at Rospa/iam observers definitely not!


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

Offline


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#18 14-09-11 12:16:26

hoylake
Verified Member
From: Heysham
Registered: 21-09-07
Posts: 1,435
Website

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

I would agree to some extent with Hector. Sorry not sure of your name anymore wink

I had one bad RoSPA observer who was very much into 'ADI bashing' or perhaps it was 'woman bashing' i'll never know.


http://www.sophiesdrivinglancaster.co.uk
Adi & Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Gold

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#19 14-09-11 12:38:17

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

As a RoSPA examiner, I don't care how they have arrived or been prepared for test providing they drive to the required standard.

There is enough room out there to accommodate the ADI and the tutor/observer.

Just to clarify a point. The law only refers to instruction given for money or money's worth. A tutor delivers training free of charge. Slightly different for bikes. They are paid out of pocket expenses as they use their own machines.

The DSA, RoSPA/IAM and police are happy that, providing tutors/observers receive no remuneration, they are not acting outside the law.

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#20 14-09-11 12:48:43

on board training
Guest

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

Hi,

IAM fees to join Group is how much above the actual test fee? RoSPA fee is how much to joing the local Group?

This is the area with multiple shades of grey.

For money or moneys worth and my understanding is there is a stated case re the money being paid to another party not the trainer ie driving school receives fees for training learner and a trainee does it free - not allowed as someone has received moeny for the training provided.

So the same could/may/would apply for any IAM/RoSPA membership fees paid to access the training of an observer as you must be a member to get the observations, tutoring or trianing.

Just some thoughts.

Brian


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#21 14-09-11 15:59:32

looprevil
Verified Member
Registered: 17-03-08
Posts: 424

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

As a RoSPA examiner, I don't care how they have arrived or been prepared for test providing they drive to the required standard.

There is enough room out there to accommodate the ADI and the tutor/observer.

Just to clarify a point. The law only refers to instruction given for money or money's worth. A tutor delivers training free of charge. Slightly different for bikes. They are paid out of pocket expenses as they use their own machines.

The DSA, RoSPA/IAM and police are happy that, providing tutors/observers receive no remuneration, they are not acting outside the law.

As a RoSPA examiner can you charge someone for training?

regards

Paddy


smile  big_smile  lol  cool

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#22 14-09-11 21:36:35

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

trunkmonkey wrote:

As a RoSPA examiner, I don't care how they have arrived or been prepared for test providing they drive to the required standard.

There is enough room out there to accommodate the ADI and the tutor/observer.

Just to clarify a point. The law only refers to instruction given for money or money's worth. A tutor delivers training free of charge. Slightly different for bikes. They are paid out of pocket expenses as they use their own machines.

The DSA, RoSPA/IAM and police are happy that, providing tutors/observers receive no remuneration, they are not acting outside the law.

As a RoSPA examiner can you charge someone for training?

regards

Paddy

I'm an examiner. Who am I training?

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#23 14-09-11 21:50:06

looprevil
Verified Member
Registered: 17-03-08
Posts: 424

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

Just wondered if being a RoSPA examiner provided any form of dispensation that meant you could charge someone for training?

regards

Paddy


smile  big_smile  lol  cool

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#24 14-09-11 22:17:39

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

Just wondered if being a RoSPA examiner provided any form of dispensation that meant you could charge someone for training?

regards

Paddy

None at all. There can be no dispensation. It would need an exemption under the Road Traffic Act. It's not in anyone's interests to want that.

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#25 14-09-11 23:30:06

looprevil
Verified Member
Registered: 17-03-08
Posts: 424

Re: Thank you Excelsior Training

Thanks.

regards

Paddy


smile  big_smile  lol  cool

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