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#1 01-08-11 21:20:47

Sammypdi1
Member
From: scotland
Registered: 03-04-11
Posts: 55
Website

getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

I am teaching a learner and trying to get them to move away properly i have told them to set the gas about a pound coins width on the gas pedal hold foot still, then bring the clutch pedal up till the engine noise changes hold the foot still do obs and release handbrake, then let clutch up about the width of a 5p almost nothing then gently release the clutch fully and accelerate gently. but its not happening she can do it at times, but had a very embarasing moment tonight where a drving instructor was sitting behind us and she kept stalling we were at the junction for about 3 mins lol finally we got going and i now left feeling as if its my fault i have tried everything but nothing seems to work all the time.

There are times she can do 10 junctions in a row no problem, and then on the next back to square one any ideas people  :cry:


Passed part 1 second attempt 97/100 58
Passed part 2 first attempt 5 minors
passed part 3 first attempt

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01-08-11 21:20:47

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Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help



#2 01-08-11 21:35:01

on board training
Guest

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Hi,

Not sure if posted in right section.

However, you are right in thinking it is your fault - your solution to this also depends on level of learner you had, where you had them and I would suggest the detail in your talk through is not accurate if it is how you worded it.

You need to narrow it down and establish what was the main fault and why was it occurring and was your instruction at the correct level to deal with it?

Also, did you ask the student what they felt or were thinking or even what support they wanted from you?

Brian


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#3 01-08-11 21:35:35

Barry500
Member
From: Ipswich, Kesgrave, Woodbridge.
Registered: 27-11-10
Posts: 491
Website

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Sounds like your doing everything right (without being there) have you tried helping them with your duals?
or an exercise on the flat in a long quite road, by getting them to bring the clutch up to the bite point the playing with the pedal by dipping the pedal and then bringing it up and down just either side of the bite point.

Don't forget that if your on an incline then you need more gas!!

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#4 01-08-11 21:36:56

Barry500
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From: Ipswich, Kesgrave, Woodbridge.
Registered: 27-11-10
Posts: 491
Website

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

On board Training, being positive helps, sometimes!

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#5 01-08-11 21:42:05

on board training
Guest

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

On board Training, being positive helps, sometimes!

Hi,

I was and remember the best type of feedback is honest feedback.

No-one else's fault but the instructors - too many instructors forget that bit.

Re-read the talk through and think how it should be done - not enough gas early enough and clutch up too quickly - possibly.

Brian


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#6 01-08-11 21:44:14

KernowDrive
Member
Registered: 05-06-11
Posts: 11
Website

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Hi

I would say dont get too bogged down with baffling a pupil with thickness of a pound coin, 5p, etc, it can sometimes over complicate things for the pupil. Before I take pupils out on junctions I make sure they can master clutch control first. I take them to a quiet circular industrial area with a hill. I get them to edge the car forward using clutch control and then stop using clutch control and not the brake. I get them to repeat this going further and faster each time til we reach the hill where it becomes harder. After about half an hour of this they have instinctively learned how much to bring the clutch up and dont usually have too many problems at junctions. Although an pupil can have an off moment so dont always critisize your methods. hope this helps!

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#7 01-08-11 21:49:18

Sammypdi1
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From: scotland
Registered: 03-04-11
Posts: 55
Website

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Hi she s fine in an industrial estate it seems to happen when another car is behind us she panics and everything goes tits up lol


Passed part 1 second attempt 97/100 58
Passed part 2 first attempt 5 minors
passed part 3 first attempt

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#8 01-08-11 21:54:42

on board training
Guest

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Hi,

In that case, I would suggest revisiting your talk through and using an appropriate talkthrough that she will talk herself through to build her confidence.

But remember to ask her why she is doing what she is doing so you know yourself what domain of learning it is in to enable the appropriate remedy that she can put in place with your support.

Brian

#9 01-08-11 22:47:03

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

"she can do it at times". Yep, they may do it 20 times perfectly, then stall.  I find if they stall once the can be stressing over doing it again and stall twice...

In their effort to get away, they often lift off the clutch too quick without enough gas.  Their reactions aren't quick enough to just re-dip the clutch or balance clutch and gas to save the car before the car stalls.

If someone is behind, you can explain 'instruct' whatever, sometimes that pupil is so worried about others they get so tense they don't give themselves time to 'feel' for the bite.  What I do is tell them to bring their foot  up to feel mine, which will be on the duals, just at biting point  I tell them to think of it as a safety net, r-el-a-x and f-e-el for the bite again.  This bit of 'hand holding (or foot holding) is sometimes all they need to get them out of panic mode.

And breathing.  How many people stop breathing when they're tense.  If you remind them to breathe they'll often say "oh yes I didn't realise I was holding my breath".

You'd be surprised on some of the similarities on learning to ride a horse and drive a car. Co-ordination, motor skills.  At least the car doesn't have a mind of it's own.

Now I know some learners like to deal with it.  They want to sort it themselves and are confident enough to do that.  Others just need to be kept relaxed to make great progress.

"tried everything but nothing seems to work all the time".   No it probably won't Sammy.  Not straight away.  That's learning.   Time and practice, it will. smile

Now I have assumed (maybe incorrectly) that your pupil stalled and got increasingly worried each time.  I may be wrong as you didn't mention how they felt about it.

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#10 01-08-11 23:22:12

Sammypdi1
Member
From: scotland
Registered: 03-04-11
Posts: 55
Website

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

She was embarased about it, i think shes making steady progress i have just read through the cracked it pst and it says i should get the pupil to let the clutch up to the bite hold still when releaseing the handbrake the car should move. i asked my trainer and he said the car should neither go forward or back so this is what ive been teaching the difference is about a 5p on the clutch but what is your view on that one.


Passed part 1 second attempt 97/100 58
Passed part 2 first attempt 5 minors
passed part 3 first attempt

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#11 02-08-11 06:11:50

robcooling
Verified Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 02-04-09
Posts: 1,451
Website

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Set a clutch target. When pupil stops set them a clutch target : eg the lampost/parked car/tree/crisp packet on the road. To get the car moving they have to raise the clutch but they must not release the clutch fully until they have reached the designated clutch target.

That tends to deal with the left foot.

Regards the right foot ensure they can hear the engine humming away nicely (they need to know what it should sound like when pulling away, which I deal with in dry runs when parked up). As they are working on the clutch target prompt them to listen to the engine to achieve that healthy engine noise.


Rob

http://www.appledriving.co.uk - Driving Lessons in Nottingham

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#12 02-08-11 06:48:41

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Why is your sponsor not helping you?   You shouldn't be having to come onto a forum  for your training. 

On board training is wrong, it isn't your fault.  It's your sponsor who is at fault, and it's costing your pupil a lot of money.

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#13 02-08-11 07:09:26

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,144

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Hi Sammy,

Lots of good advice in the above posts but without being there none of us can see what the problem is. I find when pupils panic sometimes they try and bring the cluth up before the handbrake is fully released so you must keep on at her to keep feet still. Early learners strugle to hold it on a hill so if she has a clear view and theres no need to creep out its as you say handbrake on find the bite at a point where the car will move forward when the handbrake is released. Can you ask your trainer to sit on the back of a lesson with her to see what he/she thinks? I,m sure your going to have more challenging pupils than her I have 1 at the moment we have done 14 hours and still cant get passed gear 2 or do Junctions but each week her driving gets a little better.

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#14 02-08-11 07:22:09

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Check what footwear she has.  Thick soles make the job  harder than it needs to be.   See if wearing slippers/thin soled shoes  or even  barefoot works.

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#15 02-08-11 08:04:32

on board training
Guest

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Why is your sponsor not helping you?   You shouldn't be having to come onto a forum  for your training. 
On board training is wrong, it isn't your fault.  It's your sponsor who is at fault, and it's costing your pupil a lot of money.

Hi,

Afraid I am right, ultimately it is the ADI at fault - it will be interesting to find out if Sammy is in fact on a trainee badge or just taking someone out for training. - I suspect the latter but I have presumed things before and been wrong.

I agree with one thing, if you are getting training from a good trainer and have confidence in that trainer, then that should be your first port of call and not mixing up your head with things from a forum as some people will have different ideas. You did this early on with your training and posted here also.

Brian


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#16 02-08-11 08:32:34

Hilary Hughes
Verified Member
From: Stockport, Manchester
Registered: 25-06-04
Posts: 1,232
Website

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Is a PDI as much at fault as an ADI?

Hilary


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#17 02-08-11 08:59:39

Sammypdi1
Member
From: scotland
Registered: 03-04-11
Posts: 55
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Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Hi Just to clarify i am not on a pink, i am just teaching for some private practice a close friend of the family, i realse that i may have posted this topic in the wrong place. Why are some people so negative if you dont want to say anything to help then DONT comment. From what some people have said on here it would seem that i just need to stick at it as i have been doing pretty much what you have all said. i guess i just felt a bit of stage fright myself.

thanks for the replies.


Passed part 1 second attempt 97/100 58
Passed part 2 first attempt 5 minors
passed part 3 first attempt

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#18 02-08-11 09:14:46

on board training
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Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Hi Sammy,

You asked for advice and I gave it - based on the wording you have given for your talk through for this - I have, unlike some others, identified that it is incorrect and will in some gradient situations instil a stall if the student does not compensate themselves, hence why sometimes it is correct and sometimes it is not!

If the student is in a stressed situation and they don't know what to do and they are trying to do it quicker then of course it will go wrong and if you let it go wrong for several minutes it can have terrible consequences for the student and they then think the problem is theirs whenit is not.

So having identified the fault in your talk through, I would then ask why is it wrong by going through Blooms Domains of learning ie is it in your knowledge base, your ability or your attitude? If you have been told what the correct talk through is by your trainer then you know what is correct, if you have not then you need him to tell you, if you have been told but have forgotten then he needs to tell you or refer to your written notes or recording of the talk through.

If you stick at doing this pretty much as you have been, then expect the same fault to develop or the students will eventually learn themselves what they are doing wrong and compensate for their problem and it will take them longer than if they had been trying it without your input - not an ideal scenario to build on - but that is the way this industry is.

I suggest to copy and past your first post here and let your trainer identify where you are going wrong as there is a glaring error in the talk through he would want you to correct and that is what you are paying money for.

Brian

#19 02-08-11 09:51:17

martin_t
Verified Member
Registered: 30-12-06
Posts: 357

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

While I appreciate that deaf people can drive, what do you (that's the generic 'you' - everyone who's posted in this thread) do when you drive a different car to the one you are used to, or after a clutch change?

I bet you don't just find the biting point then randomly raise the clutch and depress the gas and hope for the best.  It's got something to do with the ears, and the bum (for the hard of hearing).

Someone who can repeatedly move off correctly but royally messes up under pressure is a) panicking, and b) not listening (or feeling).

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#20 02-08-11 11:09:20

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Does this problem mainly occur when the attention has to be split with a stressful situation ?

Perhaps comparing setting off from the side of the road on a quiet residential street to setting off at a give way line at a busy roundabout


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#21 02-08-11 11:27:32

Luchell
Verified Member
From: Salisbury
Registered: 12-06-07
Posts: 1,661

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Sometimes the sheer pressure and worry of the fact someone is behind them makes the pupil want to 'attempt' to move off more quickly which usually involves yanking of the clutch when the car has little or no momentum and little or no gas. I used to find well timed reassurance that the person behind would far rather we took a few seconds longer but were successful than trying to rush or panic and keep stalling holding them up and making the pupil feel worse at the same time leading to knocked confidence and even more worry it will happen at the next point of stopping the car in traffic etc. Make sure the pupil is keeping their left foot still as the car begins to move to let the car gain some momentum before snatching the left foot off, don't be afraid to verbally say FEET STILL very clearly until you are happy the pupil is remembering to do so under pressure . It gets easier to spot when this situation may arise meaning you can get ahead of the pupil with your prompts or Q and A if they are mostly ok but under pressure balls up depending on the level of instruction they need to accomplish the task successfully.

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#22 02-08-11 16:48:36

Terrier
Banned
From: Greater Manchester
Registered: 15-05-11
Posts: 657

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Sammy

I would suggest you look very closely at the routes you are using. Most problems with stalling in the early stages arise because the pupil is put in situations that they are not ready for and when required to move off under pressure will go into panic mode and stall.

It is a common problem in driving instruction because in instructor training one thing that is seriously neglected is route planning. I have to agree with Roadmaster it's not the fault of the ADI, in many cases the problem lies in poor training. I encounter many ADI's on check test training who don't have a clue how to structure driving lessons.


ADI Development Greater Manchester & Cheshire Grade 6 ORDIT Approved
Cardington Grade A  RoSPA Gold
DSA External Trainer Certificate for Instructor Training

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#23 02-08-11 20:45:19

Sammypdi1
Member
From: scotland
Registered: 03-04-11
Posts: 55
Website

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Yes i AGREE with you terrier, lesson learned


Passed part 1 second attempt 97/100 58
Passed part 2 first attempt 5 minors
passed part 3 first attempt

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#24 02-08-11 22:36:17

colin166
Verified Member
From: Rushden, Northants
Registered: 31-05-09
Posts: 152

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

Luchell has summed up perfectly.

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#25 02-08-11 23:24:33

WillyO
Member
Registered: 12-11-10
Posts: 205

Re: getting a learner to move off correctly help help help

I am teaching a learner and trying to get them to move away properly i have told them to set the gas about a pound coins width on the gas pedal hold foot still, then bring the clutch pedal up till the engine noise changes hold the foot still do obs and release handbrake, then let clutch up about the width of a 5p almost nothing then gently release the clutch fully and accelerate gently. but its not happening she can do it at times, but had a very embarasing moment tonight where a drving instructor was sitting behind us and she kept stalling we were at the junction for about 3 mins lol finally we got going and i now left feeling as if its my fault i have tried everything but nothing seems to work all the time.

There are times she can do 10 junctions in a row no problem, and then on the next back to square one any ideas people  :cry:

Not much change there Sammy. tongue wink


A wise man does not need advice, But, only a fool won't take it.   Miam, DIAmond Advanced Test, DIAmond Special Test.

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