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#51 05-02-12 12:01:51

Andrew lefthandseat
Verified Member
Registered: 22-12-11
Posts: 369

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

If we lift off the accelerator with the clutch engaged, the car will slow down more quickly than if we coast to a stop, so it seems like a good idea to teach BBC. Obviously the action is going to be almost simultaneous at low speeds, but our pupil might have to hit the brakes at 70mph one day.

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05-02-12 12:01:51

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Re: Emergency stop and ABS.



#52 05-02-12 18:33:51

Madiggy
Verified Member
From: UK
Registered: 07-06-05
Posts: 364

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Bury both pedals as fast as you can, this is an EMERGENCY ! make sure the ABS works on every attempt.

Every thing else is used as teaching tools to define the difference between any modern car with ABS fitted, and the possibility the pupil could own or eventually own a non ABS vehicle.

Depth of understanding of all vehicle technology is an important subject particularly for post test safe driving.


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#53 05-02-12 19:19:34

Andrew lefthandseat
Verified Member
Registered: 22-12-11
Posts: 369

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

I think I'll stick to brakes first then dip the clutch to prevent a stall, especially if I'm doing an emergency stop at speed...shame to waste all that engine braking.

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#54 05-02-12 23:12:45

Madiggy
Verified Member
From: UK
Registered: 07-06-05
Posts: 364

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Andrew lefthandseat wrote:

I think I'll stick to brakes first then dip the clutch to prevent a stall, especially if I'm doing an emergency stop at speed...shame to waste all that engine braking.

Just sticking with what you know, without finding out - 1) Which method is correct?  - 2) Which method is expected by the DSA, both in the 'L' test and from trainee instructors, suggests we do not have a requirement to keep ourselves up to date, and I believe we do.


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#55 05-02-12 23:17:36

Lily-Anne
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From: Northampton
Registered: 21-05-07
Posts: 606
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

What is an emergency stop?
Aim -Stopping the car promptly under full control
Objective - save the child

It makes no difference how. Either way works.

LA


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#56 05-02-12 23:27:53

Andrew lefthandseat
Verified Member
Registered: 22-12-11
Posts: 369

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

@Madiggy, sorry you lost me there

@LA I agree...if you save the day, the job's done, however you achieve it

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#57 05-02-12 23:42:45

Lily-Anne
Verified Member
From: Northampton
Registered: 21-05-07
Posts: 606
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Most ABS systems require the clutch and footbrake to be depressed harshly at the same time to brake in an emergency situation

The above has been copied and pasted from the DSA website.

LA


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#58 05-02-12 23:46:36

Madiggy
Verified Member
From: UK
Registered: 07-06-05
Posts: 364

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Lily-Anne wrote:

Most ABS systems require the clutch and footbrake to be depressed harshly at the same time to brake in an emergency situation

The above has been copied and pasted from the DSA website.

LA

There ya go that's what I meant.    smile

Keeping up to date - is the only way smile


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#59 06-02-12 00:13:41

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Madiggy wrote:
Lily-Anne wrote:

Most ABS systems require the clutch and footbrake to be depressed harshly at the same time to brake in an emergency situation

The above has been copied and pasted from the DSA website.

LA

There ya go that's what I meant.    smile

Keeping up to date - is the only way smile

My Vauxhall Astra handbook makes no mention of when to declutch (harshly or otherwise) whilst braking.
Could this mean the timing is not important?

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#60 06-02-12 10:08:37

Madiggy
Verified Member
From: UK
Registered: 07-06-05
Posts: 364

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Driver99 wrote:
Madiggy wrote:
Lily-Anne wrote:

Most ABS systems require the clutch and footbrake to be depressed harshly at the same time to brake in an emergency situation

The above has been copied and pasted from the DSA website.

LA

There ya go that's what I meant.    smile

Keeping up to date - is the only way smile

My Vauxhall Astra handbook makes no mention of when to declutch (harshly or otherwise) whilst braking.
Could this mean the timing is not important?

No mention of emergency braking, there then?

Important to who?

Is the handbook our only source of information?

What do you want to know?

This is about PSTs so I guess the DSA way is best smile


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#61 06-02-12 10:11:55

Lily-Anne
Verified Member
From: Northampton
Registered: 21-05-07
Posts: 606
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Gedi18 wrote:

HI,
      preparing for part 3 and have query on how examiner will want me to explain howto use brake and clutch on my corsa 1.3 diesel, should I
say brake then clutch or brake and clutch. I have abs on the car but the manual doesnt really explain how to use them, there is no recomendations on this. any advice/help would be really helpful.

many thanks Gedi

As a driver think about you want if you stop in an emergency. The DSA way is both together, but it depends on how you plan to discuss this subject with them.

LA


http://www.centraladitraining.co.uk
BA, Dip Di, Cardington 'A', NLP Practitioner using coaching as a life skill.
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#62 06-02-12 10:16:18

Andrew lefthandseat
Verified Member
Registered: 22-12-11
Posts: 369

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

@Lily-Anne I hadn't heard this before. I tried to find this section on the website but failed miserably. Would you be able to send me the URL so I can have a read? Thank you.

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#63 06-02-12 15:27:14

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Madiggy wrote:
Driver99 wrote:

My Vauxhall Astra handbook makes no mention of when to declutch (harshly or otherwise) whilst braking.
Could this mean the timing is not important?

No mention of emergency braking, there then?

Nope.  It mentions "Brake Assist", which talks about operating the brake pedal with "a powerful push", but nothing about when to declutch. 

Madiggy wrote:

Important to who?

Vauxhall I guess - if there was a preferred timing for the declutch (for safety/efficiency) I would have thought Vx would have stated it?  Maybe the overriding affect of the brakes' braking forces compared to the engine's braking forces make the timing of the declutch irrelevant?

Madiggy wrote:

Is the handbook our only source of information?

Nope, but as alluded to by another poster, it's probably a good place to start.  Lily-Anne's quote from the DSA DT1 document itself says "Most ABS systems....", it doesn't say all.  It gets more interesting, as DT1 goes on to say, "Further advice regarding ABS is given in the DSA publication 'driving the essential skills'."

So I look in DTES, page 82 and it says, "Don't touch the clutch pedal until just before you stop.  This helps with your braking and stability."  BUT, it then goes on to say, "This routine is not necessarily correct if you have ABS brakes.  Refer to your manufacturer's handbook."
Which, for Vauxhall, doesn't seem to say much!

Madiggy wrote:

What do you want to know?

This is about PSTs so I guess the DSA way is best smile

Exactly! - What to tell the Examiner on Part3, so he/she is suitably impressed!

Could the "brake before clutch" method originate from the days when there wasn't any ABS and it was more important to get the brakes on and deal with the possibility of cadence braking?

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#64 06-02-12 16:44:57

MGM
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: 24-10-11
Posts: 833

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Lily-Anne wrote:

Most ABS systems require the clutch and footbrake to be depressed harshly at the same time to brake in an emergency situation

The above has been copied and pasted from the DSA website.

LA

Not very helpful advice. You need to know what's right for your car, which may not be one of the (alleged) majority.

The DSA's technical experts still seem to think that cars have carburettors (DES, 7th edition), so they may not be quite up do date with this one either!

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#65 06-02-12 17:30:53

Lily-Anne
Verified Member
From: Northampton
Registered: 21-05-07
Posts: 606
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

This is about a part three exam, show understanding of your subject, the DSA have stated what they want to hear. At the end of the day if you demonstrate understanding and can convey the information and answer questions, job done, why complicate things?

This question was doing the round ten years ago, yet nobody can agree even now.

LA


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#66 06-02-12 18:39:32

MAZ
Verified Member
From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 808

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Driver99:
In the absence of anything concrete in the handbook I would go for BBC, if the “pupil” is going to make an error here its likely to be “clutch first”, insufficient pressure, late/slow reaction (maybe caused by unnecessary mirror check) or poor/no observations before moving off.

Maz.

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#67 06-02-12 19:28:00

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

MAZ wrote:

Driver99:
In the absence of anything concrete in the handbook I would go for BBC, if the “pupil” is going to make an error here its likely to be “clutch first”, insufficient pressure, late/slow reaction (maybe caused by unnecessary mirror check) or poor/no observations before moving off.

Maz.

Cheers.  That makes sense.

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#68 06-02-12 23:04:24

Madiggy
Verified Member
From: UK
Registered: 07-06-05
Posts: 364

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Without wanting too get to technical, modern management systems communicate with each other, so if the engine management system detects the engine being driven (clutch up) will the brake management system sense we want to continue rather than stop?

I am confident from my own investigations into how these systems work, that I would teach for Pt III, and for learners, both pedals at the same time as hard and quick as possible. That includes vehicles with brake assist.


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#69 07-02-12 00:57:18

MAZ
Verified Member
From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 808

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

I think you will find it is the “velocity” at which the brake pedal is pressed that invokes “emergency brake assist”, the clutch does not come into it, although some engine management systems may receive a signal from the clutch to release the starter inhibitor on vehicles requiring “clutch down” for engine start.

We need to be aware that modern vehicle safety systems are designed around “Joe Average”, who is driving to work on “auto pilot” thinking about how he is going to tell his boss he will not reach his targets this month, and not learners and driving instructors.
Would Joe Average be pondering over BBC or CBB or B & C in an emergency? It is likely that He would act instinctively and just whack both pedals down together, and that is how the system is designed, basically “idiot proof”.

However, whilst there are still millions of older cars on the road without Hi-Tech braking systems and it is possible that our pupils will buy one of these as a first car it might be “best practice” to teach BBC.

From a pt3 point of view, in the little time you have to get the subject covered it would best to keep it as simple as possible and not get tong tied. A dry run should show up any potential for wrong pedal operation for Phase1.

Other faults to watch out for apart from pedal operation during the stop are letting go of the wheel and operating the handbrake before the car has stopped, some pupils have even been known to close their eyes.

Maz.

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#70 07-02-12 11:58:31

The Saint
Verified Member
From: Languedoc
Registered: 09-07-07
Posts: 370

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

An old thread brought back to life....

This story is not really what the OP was asking, but it's timing is perfect for me.

On Saturday morning I was about to pick up a pupil. I was driving on the major road towards a light controlled crossroads and I saw a car approaching me, indicating right. The other car took up the correct position, close to the centre white line. I was travelling at about 20mph in second gear, the other car around 15mph.

As I got to 3-4 metres from the other car, it turned suddenly into my path. I barely had time to hit the brakes before hitting the other car almost head on. The last thing on my mind was the clutch!

Both cars written off, I spent the rest of the day in A&E. 

The point I'm making is that whatever we teach, it goes out of the window in a real emergency. In the 'sterile' situation we get on test, teach whatever you feel comfortable with. I've never had a failure due to the ES and I'm pretty sure not all my pupils have done it exactly the way they have been taught.....


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#71 04-04-12 13:05:18

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,122

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Danny Steel wrote:

Brake before clutch/ engine braking was relevant when brakes alone were not so efficient. I tell my pupil thats what we used to do to avoid running down the dinosaurs. These day modern car have much improved brakes. The assistance from engine braking is so minimal  its almost immeasurable. By the time the engine has slowed down enough to make any difference the car has stopped. Try it!

Good point Danny but a lot of pupils buy cars well over 10 years old with brakes not as good as modern cars so I teach brake then clutch.

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#72 19-02-13 11:09:56

Saint_Albans_ADI
Member
From: Saint Albans Hertfordshire
Registered: 19-02-13
Posts: 30
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

I would always teach Brake Then Clutch and if they do not get around to pressing the clutch down and the car stops promptly then they have done their job. If the ABS kicks in the Great that is what it is for if it helps to stop the car ad gives you the ability to steer if required then fantastic.

I have been driving for over 20 years and have only ever done 17 emergency stops ......just kidding just the one ...and that was when I was not paying full attention laps of concentration as a 17 year old !


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