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#26 21-05-11 12:23:51

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 433

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

If it's an emergency stop it's both feet down together.  I don't go with all this nonsense about using engine braking to slow the car down quicker.  In a real situation it's an immediate stop and there is no time for any engine braking. 

Handbrake & neutral is for  test only.  Real life it's get it in first and on your way.

I totally agree with this.

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21-05-11 12:23:51

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Re: Emergency stop and ABS.



#27 21-05-11 12:37:51

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 433

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Why could it make this difference?   

1 because of coasting,
2 less control,
3no engine breaking and I know the break will be quickly following clutch but for that split second you do feel a slight surge when clutch plates have been seperated.

Re
1 Coasting!  It's an emergency stop. You are pressing the brake to quickly reduce speed. You are not coasting.
2 During an emergency stop from low speeds, up to about 40 mph, I would suggest that all you have to think about is braking hard and steering, in this situation how do you have less control? I suspect that some people are getting mixed up here with 'braking as if an emergency' ie braking very hard to stop ASAP, and just braking quite hard?
3 If you can feel this you are not braking quickly enough! I have yet to see any evidence of engine braking having any effect if the brakes are used quickly and efficiently but if you can show me different I'm happy to learn.

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#28 21-05-11 13:15:41

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,517

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

but for that split second you do feel a slight surge when clutch plates have been seperated.


How can the car surge when 1)  there is no drive to the engine and  2) the brakes are being applied?

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#29 21-05-11 13:57:43

mon
Verified Member
From: Lurgan Co.Armagh
Registered: 08-11-08
Posts: 418
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

ah well...what I mean is if clutch is pressed in before brake is on,as with going around L&Rs junctions there is less contol,so BBC as said before.


From Striving to Driving.....Lurgan Co.Armagh

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#30 21-05-11 14:46:37

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 433

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

ah well...what I mean is if clutch is pressed in before brake is on,as with going around L&Rs junctions there is less contol,so BBC as said before.

If clutch is pressed in before brake is on, you are braking too late.

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#31 21-05-11 15:23:07

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,517

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

ah well...what I mean is if clutch is pressed in before brake is on,as with going around L&Rs junctions there is less contol,so BBC as said before.

? The discussion is about emergency stops, not coasting around corners.

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#32 21-05-11 15:33:11

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 433

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Does BBC mean brake before clutch?

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#33 21-05-11 16:45:05

VIKING
Member
Registered: 17-02-09
Posts: 20

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Pupil on emergency stop and about to change into 3rd gear when examiner says stop. Clutch is already on the way down! I say make sure you apply the brake as if in an emergency. Do not try and bring the clutch back up to maximise engine braking in this case.

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#34 21-05-11 17:31:30

mon
Verified Member
From: Lurgan Co.Armagh
Registered: 08-11-08
Posts: 418
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

yes bbc means that viking,I know what we are talking about RM but relating it to another is not the end of the world......


From Striving to Driving.....Lurgan Co.Armagh

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#35 21-05-11 18:12:55

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 442

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

It seems to me that quite a simple task like stopping the car is being over analysed and made unnecessarily complicated, the car will take much longer to stop in the real world due to distractions in the vehicle like mobile phones or passengers, compared to worrying about which order to press the pedals! Is's simple really, just stop the car as quickly as possible, I dont think there will be a great deal in it utilising engine (compression) braking, rather than just brake and clutch together! IMO of course!

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#36 21-05-11 21:14:49

Terrier
Banned
From: Greater Manchester
Registered: 15-05-11
Posts: 657

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Handbrake & neutral is for  test only. 

So when did this come into the test?


ADI Development Greater Manchester & Cheshire Grade 6 ORDIT Approved
Cardington Grade A  RoSPA Gold
DSA External Trainer Certificate for Instructor Training

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#37 21-05-11 21:21:06

martin_t
Verified Member
Registered: 30-12-06
Posts: 357

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Handbrake & neutral is for  test only.  Real life it's get it in first and on your way.

Hmmm... I just point out that handbrake/neutral might help the hard of thinking to not try and move off in 3rd.  Certainly not one rule for test and another for real life!

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#38 02-10-11 21:47:20

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,165
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Advantage of teaching of using handbrake and neutral is simple.

Child runs into road, driver slams on brakes and stops, child stood in front of car screaming, driver panics and leapt out of car to check child is Ok...................................well it was until you got out of the car with the engine running, in gear and then took your feet off the pedals in a panic !!   (yes it has happened)

That is the only reason for handbrake and neutral, so you don't do anything stupid once the car has stopped.

Worth teaching if only to emphasise the need to keep thinking all the time, there is still a danger even after stopping.

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#39 03-10-11 07:08:44

robcooling
Verified Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 02-04-09
Posts: 1,426
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Advantage of teaching of using handbrake and neutral is simple.

Child runs into road, driver slams on brakes and stops, child stood in front of car screaming, driver panics and leapt out of car to check child is Ok...................................well it was until you got out of the car with the engine running, in gear and then took your feet off the pedals in a panic !!   (yes it has happened)

That is the only reason for handbrake and neutral, so you don't do anything stupid once the car has stopped.

Worth teaching if only to emphasise the need to keep thinking all the time, there is still a danger even after stopping.

I teach this, as soon as they stop the 1st time I say :

"The terrified child is now stood directly in front on you, get that parking brake on and put us in neutral so there is no way we can lurch or roll into them."

If you don't explain that, they don't get why they have to secure the car.


Rob

http://www.appledriving.co.uk - Driving Lessons in Nottingham

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#40 03-10-11 08:18:45

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,119

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Advantage of teaching of using handbrake and neutral is simple.

Child runs into road, driver slams on brakes and stops, child stood in front of car screaming, driver panics and leapt out of car to check child is Ok...................................well it was until you got out of the car with the engine running, in gear and then took your feet off the pedals in a panic !!   (yes it has happened)

That is the only reason for handbrake and neutral, so you don't do anything stupid once the car has stopped.

Worth teaching if only to emphasise the need to keep thinking all the time, there is still a danger even after stopping.

There is another reason which I always use.

The reason I give for handbrake and neutral is if there is a car following behind and they dont realize we have stopped they could go into the back of you which could result in your foot coming off the clutch causing us to lunge forward hitting the child we just avoided. I was under the impression this was the main reason for it. Am i wrong?

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#41 03-10-11 08:56:26

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,165
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Martin, I don't think 'main reason' is a viable term, the important thing is that there are reasons and the more you can think of the more you can elicit thoughts from your pupils.

It is all about getting them to think about what risks there are in any given scenario and how they would take action to minimise those risks.

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#42 03-10-11 20:13:36

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,119

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Martin, I don't think 'main reason' is a viable term, the important thing is that there are reasons and the more you can think of the more you can elicit thoughts from your pupils.

It is all about getting them to think about what risks there are in any given scenario and how they would take action to minimise those risks.

Very good point Kaf I must agree with you there but why did you say that the only reason for neutral and handbrake is so you dont do anything stupid once the car has stopped :?

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#43 04-10-11 22:17:27

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,165
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Bad turn of phrase I think, apologies.

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#44 05-10-11 21:31:16

MFB
Verified Member
From: Lincoln
Registered: 23-10-08
Posts: 67

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Brake and clutch at same time .Any engine braking effect will be overidden by the very rapid decrease in speed created by modern braking systems. If anything by keeping clutch up may actually give the braking system even more work in the first couple of seconds as it will be trying to slow the engine down artificially. I teach the simple concept of lightning reactions and stop the car damn quick!. Never had a prob.
MFB

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#45 07-10-11 06:59:15

robcooling
Verified Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 02-04-09
Posts: 1,426
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Brake and clutch at same time .Any engine braking effect will be overidden by the very rapid decrease in speed created by modern braking systems. If anything by keeping clutch up may actually give the braking system even more work in the first couple of seconds as it will be trying to slow the engine down artificially. I teach the simple concept of lightning reactions and stop the car damn quick!. Never had a prob.
MFB

I think this may be car-specific, but I swear blind every time one of my pupils 'gets it wrong' and puts the clutch and brake down at the same time it takes longer to stop or the ABS kicks in. I can just feel the effect of the clutch going down early.

I teach brake firmly dropping the cars speed rapidly, working towards threshold braking, then pop the clutch down to prevent stalling. Works great!

Could be car specific, or just different ways of achieving the same result?


Rob

http://www.appledriving.co.uk - Driving Lessons in Nottingham

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#46 04-02-12 19:53:58

on board training
Guest

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Hi,

Brake and clutch same time and ABS to work - sorted

Brian

#47 04-02-12 21:22:50

MAZ
Verified Member
From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 806

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

on board training wrote:

Hi,

Brake and clutch same time and ABS to work - sorted

Brian


You have saved the day OBT,  mystery solved.

Maz.

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#48 04-02-12 22:13:59

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

MAZ wrote:

You have saved the day OBT,  mystery solved.

Crikey, as a PDI trying to pick up pearls of wisdom, I've had a quick count through the posts and think the "score" is:
BBC = 6
B+C = 4

ABS OK = 2

Hardly conclusive sad

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#49 04-02-12 23:12:32

MAZ
Verified Member
From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 806

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Driver99 wrote:

Crikey, as a PDI trying to pick up pearls of wisdom, I've had a quick count through the posts and think the "score" is:
BBC = 6
B+C = 4

ABS OK = 2

Hardly conclusive sad

Excuse my levity driver99, I think you can deduce from that, that there is no definitive "Right" way, but you will need to be positive and confident with your pt3 "pupil" or he/she will try and take the p*** in the knowledge that there is a number of schools of thought on this subject. A way around this is to look in your tuition vehicle handbook and use the advice of the manufacturer, no one can argue with that. The same goes for handbrake operation.

Good Luck Maz.

Last edited by MAZ (04-02-12 23:17:15)

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#50 05-02-12 01:14:58

colin166
Verified Member
From: Rushden, Northants
Registered: 31-05-09
Posts: 152

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

ratty wrote:

Does BBC mean brake before clutch?

Brake Brace Clutch.

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