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#1 06-06-05 11:25:25

christop
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pst 5 emergancy stop

just a quick question,if on a part 3 test with an abs car ,would you tell the se to stop the car using the brake and clutch simualtaniously or brake ,then clutch.i beleive its the latter but do you have to clearly state the differance between the two ?

06-06-05 11:25:25

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Re: pst 5 emergancy stop



#2 06-06-05 12:10:21

Rob
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From: South Wales
Registered: 09-01-05
Posts: 335
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Re: pst 5 emergancy stop

You are quite right it is the latter as the car will stop sooner.

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#3 06-06-05 17:09:43

Crane
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From: Cranleigh, Surrey
Registered: 02-05-05
Posts: 99
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Re: pst 5 emergancy stop

Have been told to state the latter. My papers say that there's more chance of a skid if you use clutch at the same time.


I'm sure you can do it,too!

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#4 06-06-05 17:11:59

Crane
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From: Cranleigh, Surrey
Registered: 02-05-05
Posts: 99
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Re: pst 5 emergancy stop

Have been told to state the latter. My papers say that there's more chance of a skid if you use clutch at the same time.


I'm sure you can do it,too!

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#5 06-06-05 18:33:36

luchell
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Re: pst 5 emergancy stop

the latter. i was told if the car has abs not to even bring up cadence braking as thats a thing of the past lol  dont confuse em lol


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#6 06-06-05 21:38:50

dashdriving.com
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From: Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Hu
Registered: 29-11-04
Posts: 148
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Re: pst 5 emergancy stop

Hi all,

The above answers hit it fair and square and there's nothing really to add.

I've just had a trainee who wanted to practice this very pst, and something interesting crossed my mind (not a long journey!), so I thought I'd share it with you . . .

In the briefing my trainee said something like " . . . when you brake, you need to brake a bit more than normal, but not so hard that the wheels lock up . . . etc etc". The car was fitted with abs.

It just struck me that the language used by trainees is very often quite vague. What I mean by this is how much is 'a bit'?

Line up ten people and ask them to press a brake pedal 'a bit more than normal' and you'll probably get ten different reactions.

Line up ten learners and you'll probably get ten different reactions. The simple fact is that with vague language we all interperet things in different ways. I will, you will, your learners will and the SE will.

The answer is to leave no room for choice. Make your language very specific. Very specific indeed. When we use vague language, the person we are talking to has to 'fill in the gaps', and try to decide what you mean for themselves.

The emergency stop is exactly what it says it is. A way to stop in an emergency. There is no room for vagueness in an emergency . . . a childs life could depend upon it.

The car has abs, so the instruction is to get the brake down as hard as you can and as fast as you can. Have no concern for damage to the vehicle. Pay no attention to damaging your tyres. When the choice is between killing someone or burning a bit of rubber, go for the latter.

Even without abs my instruction would be the same . . . get that brake down like a life depends upon it . . . it just might. Then I'd mention about easing off if the wheels lock etc.

In any car, the maximum braking efficiency comes just before the wheels lock. So you have to get to almost that point anyway to stop in the shortest distance.

Using vague language is a real problem. In all areas of training, pdi's regularly say things like "a bit more . . . the car over there . . . turn right in a bit . . . a touch more steering . . . etc etc"

Be specific. Say exactly what you mean, leave no room for choice.

regards,


Dave Hartley
ADI Trainer for Dash driving

www.dashdriving.com

you never do anything wrong,
you just find new ways of not doing it right.

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#7 06-06-05 22:12:10

sibeks
Verified Member
From: NE Hampshire
Registered: 09-01-05
Posts: 347
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Re: pst 5 emergancy stop

Just a bit confused!
I'm being trained up this Thursday on this pst and checking my homework I notice that the final part of the briefing was to discuss skidding. It may sound a bit daft but one has to take into consideration the road surface and weather conditions to see how much pressure you should apply on the break. In an emergancy situation you put that peddle down you dont say to yourself "hang on a moment the weather is wet good hevens I better go easy a bit on that break" or " The road surface is a bit naaf...."
What shall I do or say?


Part 1 Passed Nov 8th 04 - 1st Time
Part 2 Passed Apr 20th 05 - 2nd Time
Part 3 Passed Mar 23rd 06 - 2nd Time

http://www.rimmersdrivingschool.com

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#8 07-06-05 11:04:04

dashdriving.com
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From: Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Hu
Registered: 29-11-04
Posts: 148
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Re: pst 5 emergancy stop

Hi sibeks

Sorry if I caused any confusion in the above post.

Clearly, you can discuss this with your trainer, but if the car has abs fitted the system will prevent wheel lock anyway, whatever the road surface.

In a car with abs I would tell the 'learner' (SE) to get the bake down hard and let the system do it's job. I'd also VERY briefly explain the abs system and assure them that the car will not skid.

Without abs, I'd still tell the learner (SE) to initially get the brake down hard, and then I'd VERY briefly explain skidding and how to remove the cause by lifting off the brake, steering into correction, and applying the brake again.

I'd make the pont to the learner (SE) that this is an emergency and we have to get that car to a stand still as soon as we possible can.

Your trainer will explain these issues to you and give you plenty of practice.

regards,


Dave Hartley
ADI Trainer for Dash driving

www.dashdriving.com

you never do anything wrong,
you just find new ways of not doing it right.

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#9 07-06-05 11:35:56

christop
Guest

Re: pst 5 emergancy stop

dash driving,would you hit the brake that hard to purposely make use of the abs.if so ,would this not make the stopping distance further with the brakes not being used continuosly

#10 07-06-05 13:47:49

ck
Member
From: nottingham
Registered: 09-03-05
Posts: 304
Website

Re: pst 5 emergancy stop

Hi christop,
I know you posed this question to dash but if I may, you should brake normally even in an emergency you should brake progressively just much quicker and harder, you should not try to influence the activation of the abs thats the good thing about it you can forget it and it will do its job when neccesary.

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#11 08-06-05 20:25:22

hampshirebabe
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-04
Posts: 82

Re: pst 5 emergancy stop

If most cars have abs, cadence braking is a thing of the past and abs will prevent wheel lock anyway, whatever the road surface, then how come you see so many skid marks on the road.
I was taught to include cadence braking because a lot of new drivers will buy cheaper older cars as their first cars and its very likely they wont have abs. Also I was told that examiners dont like you to set off the abs, theyre only driving at about 20mph, its not that fast, they should be able to control the car adequitely. and one other thing, I know a pupil (not mine) who got a serious fault because even though the car had abs they still managed to skid.

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#12 12-06-05 10:22:47

BONNY1708
Member
Registered: 10-06-05
Posts: 97

Re: pst 5 emergancy stop

Hi All,
This subject of ABS on tests (Ls Part 2s and 3s), has caused confusion to many. I had a discussion with my local SE on this when I first got a car with ABS.

He told me that on test an examiner looks for speed of reactions and quick braking. (obviously) And would rather a car skidded and was then corrected, (cadence or ABS), than take too long to come to a stop.

In the publication DT1 chapter 1 page 24, (dsa website publications), it states that in a car fitted with ABS most systems require the brake and clutch to be used harshly at the same time and a fault should not be recorded for using this technique.

I prefer teaching that the brake should be used fractionally ahead of the clutch just to make sure that the pupil doesn't go with the left foot first.

On part 2s in my area, they have been doing the em. stop on a national speed limit country road up to about 50 mph. My local SE must be an adrenaline junkie!

Recently, on consecutive part 3s with different examiners, my students were given different advice. First was "even though this car has ABS I would like you to briefly explain cadence braking technique". Next came, "This car has ABS so don't waste time explaining cadence braking"!  roll
Both students passed the phase with 4s so it wasn't too crucial.

BONNY 1708,
Instructor training (Plymouth)

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#13 12-06-05 20:20:46

christop
Guest

Re: pst 5 emergancy stop

bonny1708 this sounds pretty much like the se ,s are looking for what dash driving mentioned in earlier post.my trainer told me that the car we use which has abs has a manual that tells you to use brake and clutch together but has advised me to use the normal method of brake then clutch.this sounds like good advice so i shall stick with it

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