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#1 12-01-10 17:25:20

philipt
Member
Registered: 05-01-10
Posts: 2

Moving off and Stopping - PST2 Phase 1

Hello there

As a PDI preparing for my Part 3 Test I would welcome advice about the expectations of examiners on a PST 2 issue - moving off and stopping, as I have heard completely contrary advice from different trainers.

On one of Blaine Walsh's videos it is recommended that, if possible, once the car is moving that the left foot holds the clutch in biting position with the gas held steady throughout the procedure until the time comes to pull up and stop.  In other words the clutch is not fully released at all and the speed is controlled by easing or squeezing the clutch by the proverbial width of a pound coin.  Repeated instructions to keep the feet still will ensure that the examiner cannot run away with you by increasing the gas.  The argument is that the PST is about moving off and stopping and not driving along with as driving along with normal driving position is not in the list of topics assessed for this PST and therefore you don't need to release the clutch and carry out normal driving.

A trainer I have worked with says that the examiiner will expect you to get them into normal driving position with the clutch fully up and then use covering the brake and clutch to start the process of stopping.

The DSA guidance to examiners says nothing about this.  As this is a question about what examiners expect it seems important to get it right.  Any advice would be welcome.

On another related PST 2 issue one trainer says that steering is not assessed by the examiner as it is not on the list of topics.  The examiner will get the steering right because he wants to see whether you will get him/her into a normal driving position with the reference point noted.  Again Blaine Walsh's videos strees the vital importance of controlling the examiner's steering with instructions of "More steer" and "That's enough steering".  Once again we have a complete clash of views about what examiners expect.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thank you

Philip

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12-01-10 17:25:20

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Re: Moving off and Stopping - PST2 Phase 1



#2 12-01-10 18:54:24

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Moving off and Stopping - PST2 Phase 1

There's no reason at all why you don't just set the gas and find the bite, then gently apply more gas and more bite and drive normally to the safety line.

Having said that, the first try might be just a case of moving a few feet and stopping - are you sure that the videos aren't referring to that and your trainer to driving off down the road?? It might make sense not to get to full speed if you are teaching bite and how to control the initial move off.

And steering......... the difference seems to me to refer here to pull-push when your trainer says he will get it right, and over steer or under steer in the videos.. Totally different things.

You need to be in a position where you can deal with any likely problem when moving off and stopping and any likely problem for steering.. They won't try to trick you with something you never saw before.

The other thing to bear in mind is a lot of these trainers behave as if only what they do is the right way and this comes across in their media as authoritative when it is just one way of doing it.

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#3 13-01-10 09:01:40

ADI Education
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From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Moving off and Stopping - PST2 Phase 1

The advice given by Blaine Walsh is in my opinion incorrect . The subject is move off not clutch control, and the vehicle can be driven in 1st (controlled by the gas pedal) for the short distance required.This technique is therefore more appropriate for the lesson subject.
The techniques that he describes are an underhanded way of  trying to prevent the examiner over using the gas and losing control, however it could quit easily backfire as is not necessary or appropriate (you don't use clutch control to move away and accelerate up through the gears), and most importantly it is no substitute for good instruction (to which the examiner should comply).
It is important when carrying out this exercise that you allow your self enough distance to give all the instructions required for moving away MSM and stopping.


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#4 14-01-10 23:16:50

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: Moving off and Stopping - PST2 Phase 1

Phil  There is no right or wrong here, just a quality driving lesson - EXACTLY as in the real world in this instance.

very easy, cover the pst appropiately namely: Hope this advice helps.

Begin session enquiring how far the pupil got last session. This is crucial to either demo or cover from scratch simple things like starting the engine, setting gas, finding biting point, release parking brake etc. But remember co ordination of controls is ONE element of many.

Big point introduce MSM and dont do it as if the pupil already knows, they dont so explain it. And demo it on the way rather than talking about the weather, get them looking in instructors mirror. And cover the manouvre part too namely PSL when pulling over. Pupils and examiners acting as pupils are not stupid they can take in simple info so use the time effectively.

Main point which candidates get wrong when they get there is what to do first. Dont launch into a briefing!!!!!! And then find out the pupil cant prepare the car, your briefing is quickly forgotten then. keep it logical. Make sure you either get them to demonstrate car prep if they have done it before, or teach it if they havnt. And pupils dont just let the H brake off so practice it! And applying signals!!! And where to look!!!!

Once and only once you are sure the pupil can prepare the car, apply signals, release the brake, and observe give a simple brief on move off stop. Dispell the myth steering is required here and now, it isnt and never was. One element of one element is the best way to put it a 30th of the marking sheet! If the road is straight keep the steering straight and if the pupil tries to move it grab it! The have enough to concentrate on with the other controls. Trainers may disagree but this is basic common sense, very basic. A progression to the steering can follow if appropiate. It may be, may not be.

Get the pupil along in a straight line with success unless the road isnt straight. And the clutch? Again very very simple the clutch doesnt need 'bringing up' it comes up on its own! and nearly all pupils let it come up, so feet still  always gives the best chance of success. One that keeps them still generally can bring it up in small increments as required under instrucion. And again the clutch? One element of one element, out of seven elements. A small percentage of what you are being marked on.

Then to stop, CLUTCH BEFORE BRAKE. Cant be stalled and if it, is the position of stall is safe (No road positon done) 


So basically driving should be taught in short progressive steps. progress to steering out and in dont start there. progress to raising the clutch fully dont start there, progress to changing gear dont start there.

Remember above all 4/7 ths of this lesson is observation. 2/7 ths is stopping, and 1/7th co ordination. They all interlink obviously.

Trainers will differ on opinions but trust me Phil, this will work best with real pupils and has been tested many many many times to prove so.
The level of instruction should be huge on this and other early phase 1's this is what the examiners want, give the examiner what they want. This will follow on to give a pupil a high quality and safe driving lesson.

Regards Nigel


















EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#5 14-01-10 23:30:44

colin166
Verified Member
From: Rushden, Northants
Registered: 31-05-09
Posts: 152

Re: Moving off and Stopping - PST2 Phase 1

Hi Philipt,

I had my 3rd attempt on 14 Sep 09 and got PST2 and i have pasted a copy of my write up for you here which might answer some of your questions.

I did use some of Blaine Walshe's techniques as you will see but the examiner played them up quite a bit and steering definately does come into it.

The only other thing I should mention is that Blaine has recently added that if you use the "keep your feet still" command as it were you must first explain to him/her the reason WHY.

Since being qualified I have taught quite alot of pupils to move off and stop and none so far have come close to being as difficult to comply as the SE was on that day.

Here is my write up of my 3rd attempt on Monday 14th Sep.

As this was the 3rd attempt I didn’t sleep to good, met my trainer at 9.00am for a couple of hours practice ready for test at 13.00.
Starting to get nervous already but once I got training I relaxed a bit but once we headed for the DTC at 12.30 the nerves really started to come back but even worse.
SE came down to greet me dead on time and I was relieved to find he was the same SE that took me for part 2 and a nice chap too.
Signed the declaration etc and saw it was pst2 moving off/stopping for phase 1 which I thought I was quite good at (with real people learning).
On the way to the car I let him know that I am extremely nervous because it’s the 3rd and final attempt which he acknowledges.
Ok he says get in the driver’s seat and make yourself comfy. Word picture is he has had one lesson before, got to start engine and then lesson ended, we are now going to go to a quiet location and on the way can you tell me about the use of mirrors.
A few minutes later we arrive at scene and he points out where to stop and I was surprised to see it was on a slight uphill gradient and while I was thinking about that I forgot to tell him to watch how little I had to steer to move to a parking position which turned out to be a costly mistake.
Swapped seats and did cockpit drill and he tried to adjust interior mirror with his hand covering it up and then tried to lean towards door mirrors as he set them up.
Said he had ridden a moped before but nothing with clutch and gears.
Started to do the briefing and then suddenly started getting really really nervous and it seemed like the briefing that I have practised many times got all jumbled up into a fuzzy haze but he marked it as satisfactory so it must have made a bit of sense.
Did a dry run with the usual pound coin on the gas and a centimetre at a time up with clutch but he played up a lot with those and because the sun was shining from the front and he was wearing a dark suit and black shoes it was difficult to see his feet in the dark foot well of the Corsa.
Time to have a go now so he starts up and gets it into 1st but struggles to get the pound coins thickness on gas so I give up on that and tell him to use the rev counter instead.
Next he plays up with the clutch, brings it up a centimetre at a time no problem but won’t stop at biting point and stops just above so when I tell him to put it back down a centimetre he goes back down to the floor.
We get there in the end and do the obs just as the road turns into the M1 and a then a small van parks in front of us and so we have to start all over again.
By the time we are ready again and done the obs he has got the clutch too high and about 2,500 revs and itching to put the handbrake down.
Start again, this time manage to get moving but now we have to get round the van and although I consolidated with him about what 5 minutes steering was as if the wheel was a clock face he wasn’t having any of that and started steering all over just as the van driver was about to try and get back in his van but changed his mind.
Managed to get 3 attempts in the end all of which I thought were rubbish compared to what I have done before but I got a 4 for that which I think was because I kept it safe by making him keep looking round and I stopped him getting that handbrake down with too much gas and bite.
On the marking sheet coordination of controls and normal stop was unsatisfactory but everything else OK.

PHASE 2: Meeting/adequate clearance and anticipation.
Word picture was test next week, just need to brush up on meeting and all types of clearance.
This turned out to be like a holiday compared to phase1.
Went round a couple of sharp bends in a residential street too fast, sorted that out.
Next came a meeting situation, how are you going to position to let this car thru? Half in and half out he says but what he meant by that was to steer to the right just before stopping with the wheels turned outwards. I thought I had sorted that but at the next one he still put the car at a sharp angle but stopped with the wheels straight. I Q an A him on that and he says well the car is straight now and I thought that’s what you meant and my other instructor lets me do it like that.
On the next one I talked him through it and then transferred power and his driving was almost perfect after that until a couple of problems with stopping too close behind a bus and was going to get too close to a cyclist.
After sorting those the last 7-8 minutes to the test centre was a good drive.

De-brief at the centre; what have you learned from the lesson today? Oh, I now know how to position to meet oncoming traffic and how much clearance to give cyclists and vehicles in front etc.
Usual long wait for the result and I thought I had blown it on phase 1 but he came back with a 4/4.
He asked me: what was all that about with the steering on phase1, you don’t want to be using all that 5 minutes to the right and left terminology, what’s wrong with just saying steer slightly to the left or right, numbers are too confusing.
He said my planning was good on phase 2 and I was ahead of him a lot of the time.

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#6 15-01-10 06:43:39

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Moving off and Stopping - PST2 Phase 1

Get the pupil along in a straight line with success unless the road isnt straight. And the clutch? Again very very simple the clutch doesnt need 'bringing up' it comes up on its own! and nearly all pupils let it come up, so feet still  always gives the best chance of success. One that keeps them still generally can bring it up in small increments as required under instrucion. And again the clutch? One element of one element, out of seven elements. A small percentage of what you are being marked on.

Then to stop, CLUTCH BEFORE BRAKE. Cant be stalled and if it, is the position of stall is safe (No road positon done)

Nigel I would have to beg to differ on you above comments. Firstly road position is taken into account for 'Position for stopping' therefore to a certain extent steering is involved  when actually moving away from the side  and pulling into the side of the road.
The terminology 'feet still' is normally associated with keeping the vehicle at the holding point ready to move off it and it may be necessary for the instructor to include the instruction ' clutch fully up'.
Whenever an instructor asks a pupil to do something the 'why' elemnet should always be explained (or confirmed) with the pupil as this promotes understanding and therefore decision making skills.


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#7 15-01-10 08:36:03

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: Moving off and Stopping - PST2 Phase 1

Hi ADI Education

So basically driving should be taught in short progressive steps. [b]progress to steering out and in[/b] dont start there. progress to raising the clutch fully dont start there, progress to changing gear dont start there.

In no way did the above post imply to keep doing the move off without steering. Its all about how far to go down the road and keepeing control of the exminer/pupil. When short move off/stops are achieved and  a longer one is required, obviously then steering is required. There is no necessity to say clutch fully up unless the pupil keeps the clutch still, they dont! If they do brilliant, but they dont. If the examiner kept the clutch at bite on a part 3 it  would be time to celerbrate and open the champagne  big_smile

Normal stop position is the same as the starting position anyway, normal road position when driving isnt marked as such. This method has been tested now several times on ordit inspections with the SE responsible for writing the ADI 1 guidelines with no comment as to needing to steer out on the first attempt.


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#8 15-01-10 09:38:52

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Moving off and Stopping - PST2 Phase 1

Nigel
Totally agree, breaking skills down is perfectly acceptable and can be applied to all PST's e.g.  manoeuvres could initially be carried out with the PDI taking responsibility for the observations providing there is subsequent development shown to incorporate the observation element. As an examiner I would expect  for PST 2 move off etc.  to be devlelopment to include steering after the initial success is achieved moving away in a straight line. Because the examiner MUST test 'position normal stop' then it is likely (if not verbally tested) that will be a requirement for the PDI to control the steering of the 'pupil'.
I did also state that 'it may only be necessary to instruct 'clutch fully up', how much or how little is incorporated into the first move off and stop is of course dependant on the previous experience and ability of the pupil.
For the purpose of the Part 3 Test the examiner will respond to good instruction so it is possible to include all the elements, and be successful as the 'pupil' in this instance should capable of achieving that goal (unless other wise indicated) if good well timed instruction is given.
That is essentially the difference between the Part 3 TEST and teaching  REAL pupil. Neither approach is incorrect it is what you feel most comfortable with. 


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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