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#51 21-01-10 11:42:23

Macca
Verified Member
Registered: 01-11-04
Posts: 193

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

Lets be honest most if not all intensive part 3 training is not offered to benefit the student it is to make the contractual delivery of the training less expensive to provide (especially 2-to-1), easy to organise and straight forward to deliver - it has nothing to do with being an effective way to train the student. It is often nothing more than part of a mass production process. What the student needs rarely comes into it.

Is intensive training easy to sell? Well it is if the buyer is misled into beliefing that after a few days of intensive in-car training effort it is straightforward to pass the part 3 exam. However, if the student knew the truth of the matter they would either not bother to train in the first place or they would want a course that gave them the best possible chance of success in whatever form necessary and in accordance with the students wishes having been properly advised.

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21-01-10 11:42:23

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Re: is 40 hours enough ?




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#52 21-01-10 13:11:44

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
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Re: is 40 hours enough ?

Ditto, Macca smile

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#53 21-01-10 13:41:09

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

There you go again  joining the dots between widely separated issues.

You are now suggesting that intensive training and misleading people into believing the Part 3 is easy are somehow part of the same topic..... and that if a company provides intensive then says something misleading later on this somehow points to intensive being wrong....... when they aren't and it doesn't..

Every big school out there is in it to make money and not to teach people for free.......... and LDC is no exception!!!!

They have different methods.. Intensive training is ofered by many successful businesses out there as pointed out earlier.. Just do a search and there are dozens and dozens.

You might have a point worthy of discussion if your track record of hounding your arch rivals in all this and promoting your own compnays ethics wasn't obviously your main motivation  roll

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#54 21-01-10 14:11:24

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

Lets be honest most if not all intensive part 3 training is not offered to benefit the student it is to make the contractual delivery of the training less expensive to provide (especially 2-to-1), easy to organise and straight forward to deliver - it has nothing to do with being an effective way to train the student. It is often nothing more than part of a mass production process. What the student needs rarely comes into it.

Is intensive training easy to sell? Well it is if the buyer is misled into beliefing that after a few days of intensive in-car training effort it is straightforward to pass the part 3 exam. However, if the student knew the truth of the matter they would either not bother to train in the first place or they would want a course that gave them the best possible chance of success in whatever form necessary and in accordance with the students wishes having been properly advised.

Ditto  big_smile


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#55 21-01-10 15:45:15

KevB
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From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

Hi Aspyre, I do agree regarding Maccas history of posting.
however, on this occasion i feel it is you that is joining the dots up or making connections that aren't there.

Maccas post doesn't suggest that he is saying intensives are wrong, nor is He saying that any or all companies that provide intensives are providing a less than perfect service,  or at least I'm not reading it as doing so.

I'm reading it as him saying that some companies use intensives because it is cost effective or beneficial for their purposes, and he is highlighting the fact that not everyone will benefit from an intensive course, and indeed, an intensive course is not necessarily offered because it is the better type of training, for many, it probably wont be.

I personally preferred the intensive nature of my training, but that was due to personal circumstances at the time. I may well have benefited more with some time between sessions, but the intensive nature of the course I took fitted in with my plans and availability at the time.

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#56 21-01-10 16:01:16

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

I don't think I am, Kevin, but let's agree to differ on that topic.. My opinion is that Macca only got involved to promote what LDC doesn't do and to have a stab at what the company he didn't name for once does.

I agree with you that intensives work for some people (some times at certain times) and don't work for others (at any time).. So hopefully we agree that intensives are not totally wrong?? This is exactly the point I am making.

I am certain that there is no direct proof that success from intensive training is any better or any worse than any other sort (except when people insist on searching for one example and using it as an indicator for everyone else)...... and for anyone to state that this IS the case is absolutely wrong (but I believe I know why they do it).

Lumping together intensive training providers and the subject of misleading people about it being easy to pass part 3 is also wrong.. The two topics are separate.

Intensive training and whether it works or not is totally separate from the matter of allegedly misleading of people about passing Part 3.. The implication is clearly that intensive trainers mislead people and that is wrong.

We need to step back to the fact that intensive training is NOT proven to not work, so the original assertion that it was a fact is what I am warning against.

And theres nothing wrong with 2:1 training either in its place.. You can learn a lot if you watch other people doing things some times.

It makes me smile when people want to 'buddy up' and yet they get conditioned to think 2:1 isn't going to help them tongue

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#57 22-01-10 10:39:56

Macca
Verified Member
Registered: 01-11-04
Posts: 193

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

I think I have shown and explained why most training organisations use some form of convenient, easy to deliver intensive type training for part 3 and why it is reasonable to assume due to the high national failure rate that this form of training is far from ideal. I accept there are other contributing factors such as the lack of amount of in-car practice/training on some courses and indeed some trainers are just not up to the job especially where 2 to 1 training is used. But I believe most trainers want to do a good job by their students but it is the process, not driven by the student’s best interest that is primarily to blame.

So to answer the orginal question 40 hours of in-car training with a good trainer is sufficient provided a further 100 hours or more of additional structured practice is carried out in support of the 40 hours preferably interspersed with those 40 hours and preferrable as directed and monitored by the trainer with good supporting materials and exercises. It is not just about how many hours in the car you get it is also about the way the training is delivered and about who's best interests it is really serving.

If you are training I hope the above will help you to realise whether your lack of progress is down to the training process rather to than to you or the trainer. Don't waste your time and money on taking a part 3 test after such a course if you feel you are not ready for the test and don't assume you are not cut out to be an instructor following such training. If you are not happy with the training company seek the help of a driving school with a view to going on a trainee license or check the ORDIT register to find an individual trainer near you for 1-to-1 remedial training. Some courses can be so demoralising many just give up - don't be one of them.

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#58 22-01-10 11:16:04

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

Allowing for the fact that if you pay for that 100 hours extra training (or for a teaching machine which is geared towards that and charges accordingly) you might be able to complete the whole thing in as little as 20 hours as one poster has demonstrated.

No one size (or one school) fits all any more than one school can be said to be totally wrong.

Some schools say you can earn up to 30k and are slated for it.. Other schools claim you can earn up to 40k and get away with it for some reason.

Hard to fathom some times isn't it??

And ORDIT is effectively meaningless. The company who hasn't been named this time has its instructors on the ORDIT register doesn't it??

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#59 22-01-10 11:30:12

Macca
Verified Member
Registered: 01-11-04
Posts: 193

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

I think you may have missed the point. It is the process not the individual trainers at fault, if fault is the right word. Red driving school, Passmasters, but to name a few do use ORDIT qualified trainers but the way the training is deliver is out of the control of those trainers. If you approach an individual ORDIT trainer he or she will be able to give you that local/personal/prompt attension. Why ORDIT? simply it gives the potential student a starting point from where to look not unlike a learner driver should look at those on the ADI register. At lease you known they sufficiently impressed a DSA examiner while training someone to be included on the register.

Structured practice is planned and would involve the indiviidual in carrying out certain practical exercises either on their own or with another. The outcome is recorded by the student and then discussed with the trainer. It does not mean you buy 100 hours of extra training with another trainer. Many people who succeed at passing part 3 often put in at lease an extra 100 hours or indeed more study and practical preparation.

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#60 22-01-10 11:45:12

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

I think YOU are missing the point...... and certainly if you think that I am tongue

ORDIT does not guarantee anything...... and you can't just pick and choose what guarantees you want it to give just to cherry pick (or sneakily direct someone else to do so) the company you want.

The quality of one company's training cannot be dismissed by a single person.

Going further.... the quality of one compnay's training most definitely cannot be dismissed by the MD of another company with a proven and consistent track record over 3-4 years of hounding that same company to the exclusion of posting on any other topic.

At the very least you should make it clear you ARE the MD of another company which uses exactly the methods you are touting so that people are not misled into thinking you are an objective poster or anything.. We don't like companies who mislead do we?? tongue

Am I really missing the point?? tongue

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#61 22-01-10 13:17:51

benji
Member
Registered: 19-08-09
Posts: 63

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

I can see Aspyre point going back to my training with red the 8 people who were with me at the start of the 40hours 6 have passed pt3 1 as got third pt3 next week and 1 as quit, so 2-1 training can work.

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#62 22-01-10 17:58:12

supps
Verified Member
Registered: 10-01-08
Posts: 55

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

I was exactly the same as Benji, except that whatever level the other pupil in the car was, I found it very useful. Sitting in the back takes the pressure off and enables you to think more clearly. I definitely found it of benefit but, as others have said we are all different and learn at different rates and by different methods. There is not a one size fits all solution.

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#63 22-01-10 19:54:28

michelle1970
Verified Member
Registered: 29-09-09
Posts: 32

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

I didnt like the 2-1 training, when i was sat in the car doing my first lesson the controls their was a lady in the back taking her test the following week, It made me feel so humilated.

Towards the end I sat in the back with my pen and paper and the trainer would ask for my notes at the end, to be honest I wasnt too keen on this either because id been in the position of the trainee sat in the front, but by this stage I could pick up the faults etc.

Also I must have watched Ped X's about 8 times in those 40 hours, so although now im confident with them it would have been better if maybe id have watched other subjects.

Ive done alot better with my PAYG 1-1 training and buddying.

Please note that these are my thoughts and my opinions only, everyone learns and likes things differently.

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#64 24-01-10 08:27:04

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

So to sum up!

40 hours practical training can be enough to pass Pt 3 though some PDI's will need more or less practical training dependant upon their ability, the quality of their training, whether training is 1 to 1 and with the proviso that practical Pt3 training is backed up with many hours of studying in addition to the studying already carried out to pass Pt 1 and Pt 2.

The value of intensive training again depends on the individual PDI and how intensive the training is since we all learn at different rates. As far as I'm concerned 40 hours Pt 3 training carried out over a two week period would be money wasted, as it would be far too intensive for me to learn and retain the skills required to pass Pt3 and become an ADI.

We should bear in mind that the timescale/intensity of most PDI's Pt 3 training is a comprmise. My own Pt 3 training was carried out over several months on a pay as you go basis, though I would have preferred to have done it more intensivly perhaps in half that time, however my time and funds availiable for Pt3 training did not allow this.


www.midasbustraining.webs.com
Midas Minibus Driver Assessor Trainer & Passenger Assistant Trainer
DVSA Fleet Registered Trainer

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#65 24-01-10 09:17:49

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

Hang on hang on hang on!! If we're summing up AND including personal opinions at the same time to bias the summing up we have to include all of them to keep it balanced..... tongue

Just need to include the line that ........intensive training IS OK for some people and that they don't have a problem with it.

wink

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#66 24-01-10 09:27:14

la.monikita
Verified Member
From: SE LONDON / KENT
Registered: 12-03-05
Posts: 3,064

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

Lets be honest most if not all intensive part 3 training is not offered to benefit the student it is to make the contractual delivery of the training less expensive to provide (especially 2-to-1), easy to organise and straight forward to deliver - it has nothing to do with being an effective way to train the student. It is often nothing more than part of a mass production process. What the student needs rarely comes into it.

Is intensive training easy to sell? Well it is if the buyer is misled into beliefing that after a few days of intensive in-car training effort it is straightforward to pass the part 3 exam. However, if the student knew the truth of the matter they would either not bother to train in the first place or they would want a course that gave them the best possible chance of success in whatever form necessary and in accordance with the students wishes having been properly advised.

Let the truth be known! As 95% of the posters on this thread I totally agree.  smile


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#67 24-01-10 15:21:21

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

Hang on hang on hang on!! If we're summing up AND including personal opinions at the same time to bias the summing up we have to include all of them to keep it balanced..... tongue

Just need to include the line that ........intensive training IS OK for some people and that they don't have a problem with it.

wink


I didnt say all intensive training isnt OK, just that 40 hours Pt 3 training over two consecutive weeks would be far too intensive for me. I'm sure that not all intensive courses insist that Pt3 training is carried out over such mind numbingly short period of time.


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#68 11-01-12 13:55:13

tollhgv
Member
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 13

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

This sounds like the same company I used....book part 3 first senario. I ws booked and paid for by my training company just after xmas break with no chance of me passing, sill yme thought maybe just maybe I would pass, silly me did not. The company in question I rang, to find no offer of additional support etc and Im pretty sure this is the same company as there have been so many complaints and as of today mine included. ( begins with R- ends D!?).
40 hours jammed into one week is the norm with this company and as many of my colleagues whom I have been on lessons with agree that this  is no where near enough, to add insult the company once the 40 hours is up charge for additional lessons, on top of the 3k+  but only after the test is booked and 90% of time cannot get additional lessons anyway.

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