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#26 31-12-09 08:49:42

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

from your post, you dont say wether you had the compulsory additional training/supervised hours before your first attempt.

Your 2nd attempt was carried out without completing the mimimum legal number of hours of additional training.

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31-12-09 08:49:42

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Re: is 40 hours enough ?




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#27 31-12-09 09:28:41

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

As far as I am aware there isn't a minimum legal number of hours to be completed before taking Pt3, however it wouldn't be possible to go on a trainee licence with 22 hours of Pt3 training as 40 hours Pt 3 tuition is the minimum required for a trainee licence.


www.midasbustraining.webs.com
Midas Minibus Driver Assessor Trainer & Passenger Assistant Trainer
DVSA Fleet Registered Trainer

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#28 31-12-09 10:04:29

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

As far as I am aware there isn't a minimum legal number of hours to be completed before taking Pt3, however it wouldn't be possible to go on a trainee licence with 22 hours of Pt3 training as 40 hours Pt 3 tuition is the minimum required for a trainee licence.

Correct regarding part 3 having no minimum, but ADI went on a pink, which does require a minimum.
However, ADI says he had 22 hours IN CAR training, but not how many hours in class, or otherwise.

There is also a requirement for ADDITIONAL training/supervised sessions before an attempt at part 3 can be made whilst on a pink. also a minimum hours additional training following a failure before a retake.

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#29 31-12-09 17:49:26

Adi1234
Guest

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

from your post, you dont say wether you had the compulsory additional training/supervised hours before your first attempt.

Your 2nd attempt was carried out without completing the mimimum legal number of hours of additional training.

I did Have the compulsory training before first attempt, Before second attempt I received 3 hours In car and 2 hours In class Training I just did what bsm advised me to do, They did fill in forms and sign things regarding my training.


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#30 31-12-09 22:58:19

Lily-Anne
Verified Member
From: Northampton
Registered: 21-05-07
Posts: 606
Website

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

Is the amount of hours relevant?  If you have signed up to intensive training then you surely had an assessment first of how many projected hours you would need?  Or are you just fulfiling the pink badge requirement?

LA


http://www.centraladitraining.co.uk
BA, Dip Di, Cardington 'A', NLP Practitioner using coaching as a life skill.
http://www.aicoachingsolutions.com

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#31 10-01-10 10:09:17

drivinginstructortrainer
Member
From: National
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 10
Website

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

IMHO you'll find it very hard to pass part 3 unless you do a lot of 'homework'. It's not something that you can just turn up to 'class' and learn and be good at.

You need to live, breathe, eat and sleep it.

Exactemundo Herbie...

For me it is ESSENTIAL that you have time to absorb the information. I offer training that is spread over a period that allows the trainee to go away, study and practice the subjects covered, between each session, before moving on to the next subject.

My prt 3 training was given over a one week period and would always advise against this time scale.

If you can absorb ALL the information required and practice practice practice, then you can pass regardless of how many hours of training you have.

Good luck.


Many years of driving instructor training experience.

www.thedrivinginstructortrainer.co.uk

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#32 10-01-10 10:47:02

Herbie
Verified Member
From: Langport, Somerset
Registered: 27-05-09
Posts: 206
Website

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

My trainer told me I needed to do at least 10hrs private practice/homework to 1hr of our lessons together. I estimate that I did 30hrs of homework to 2hrs of our lessons together. They were (on average) every 2 weeks, and if they were any longer apart than that, I did even more homework inbetween.

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#33 19-01-10 14:46:22

benji
Member
Registered: 19-08-09
Posts: 63

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

Everyone is different i done my 40 hours and 20 hours, while on pink i was working 35hours i didnt have time for home work but kept psts in mind while teaching real pupils, i found my trainers went well over top in role-play, when it came to my pt3 i treated se just like a real pupil and pasted first time maybe i was lucky i dont know.

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#34 19-01-10 17:53:05

Macca
Verified Member
Registered: 01-11-04
Posts: 193

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

Few people pass with intensive training for part 3. You can improve the chances if a lot of appropriate preparation has taken place beforehand and a lot more practice is planned to take place afterwards. For most people instructing is a completly new skill and like any new skill it takes time to evolve. Whether you can cope with intensive training depends upon where you are starting from and what skills you already have. For most people training to become driving instructors any such skills are usually lacking thus making intensive training inapproriate.

If you intend to do intensive training in-car for Part 3 you need a lot of breaks or you need to undertake the training on a 2 to 1 basis so as to give the student a rest and let them take the focus in turn and avoid being overwhelmed. However for 2 to 1 training to be successful you need a trainer who can manage the learning of two individuals at a time and ensure neither is neglected. This is not an easy skill to do well - so not for the novice instructor trainer. So the trainers has to be top notch. Next the students have to be perfectly paired each at the same starting level and aptitude for learning. If the abilities of the students are not equal you end up having the trainer spend to much time trying to keep the weaker one up to scratch and thus holding the stronger one back from progressing or you let the weaker one fall behind and concentrate on the stronger one. Or worse still you take the middle road and make absolutely certain both fail.

While intensive training is very convenient and cheap to deliver it rarely delivers a decent result. Most people who undertake intensive training for part 3 need to then go onto a trainee license to have any real prospect of passing or end up buying additional lessons to make up for the ineffectiveness of intensive training for Part 3.  Natruarlly, if you bump up the hours to say 80 hours 2 to 1 and spread it over 3 or 4 weeks you might give the student a fighting chance of success. One of the main reasons why there is such a high failure rate for part 3 is because the vast majority of people in the UK are trained for part 3 in some sort of intensive manner.

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#35 19-01-10 19:25:28

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

There is no evidence that the failure rate of over 90% across all three parts is in any way related to intensive training.. That is nonsense except as an opinion.. It is certainly not a fact.

The suitability of intensive training is tied in with how well suited to it the individual is.. It works for some and not for others.

Your last sentence implies that the vast majority of ADIs is in some way unsuitable, seeing as if your rash claim that most people are intensively trained holds any water then the majority of successful candidates must also have been intensively trained........ unless you are suggesting that every failure is intensively trained and every success isn't.

The same applies to 2:1 training.. It can be useful.

This wouldn't be another round the houses plug for LDC at the expense of another major national training establishment, would it? You know, all the good stuff mentioned LDC does, and all the alleged bad stuff is done by a certain other school and no one else?? wink

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#36 19-01-10 19:30:28

benji
Member
Registered: 19-08-09
Posts: 63

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

Macca want you say is bang on i remember on 2-1 lessons sitting in back of car for nearly 2 hours trying not to fall asleep why because i did a mock test lasted 45 mins and that was it the other pdi was on her first lesson of 40 hours i was told to take notes and comment at the end but didnt get time i just got bored thats why i worked hard with my own pupils the training was rubbish, oh after the mock test the trainer said there was no way i would pass my pt3 and to cancel test one week later i passed. if you can get 1-1 training.

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#37 19-01-10 21:17:02

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

Few people pass with intensive training for part 3. You can improve the chances if a lot of appropriate preparation has taken place beforehand and a lot more practice is planned to take place afterwards. For most people instructing is a completly new skill and like any new skill it takes time to evolve. Whether you can cope with intensive training depends upon where you are starting from and what skills you already have. For most people training to become driving instructors any such skills are usually lacking thus making intensive training inapproriate.

If you intend to do intensive training in-car for Part 3 you need a lot of breaks or you need to undertake the training on a 2 to 1 basis so as to give the student a rest and let them take the focus in turn and avoid being overwhelmed. However for 2 to 1 training to be successful you need a trainer who can manage the learning of two individuals at a time and ensure neither is neglected. This is not an easy skill to do well - so not for the novice instructor trainer. So the trainers has to be top notch. Next the students have to be perfectly paired each at the same starting level and aptitude for learning. If the abilities of the students are not equal you end up having the trainer spend to much time trying to keep the weaker one up to scratch and thus holding the stronger one back from progressing or you let the weaker one fall behind and concentrate on the stronger one. Or worse still you take the middle road and make absolutely certain both fail.

While intensive training is very convenient and cheap to deliver it rarely delivers a decent result. Most people who undertake intensive training for part 3 need to then go onto a trainee license to have any real prospect of passing or end up buying additional lessons to make up for the ineffectiveness of intensive training for Part 3.  Natruarlly, if you bump up the hours to say 80 hours 2 to 1 and spread it over 3 or 4 weeks you might give the student a fighting chance of success. One of the main reasons why there is such a high failure rate for part 3 is because the vast majority of people in the UK are trained for part 3 in some sort of intensive manner.

In my opinion an excellent post by Macca though I couldnt comment on whether the majority of PDIs have some sort of intensive training.
I completley agree with Macca that 'For most people instructing is a completly new skill and like any new skill it takes time to evolve'
Instructing is a practical skill and any practiacal skill requires practical experience or practise.................. and lots of it.


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Midas Minibus Driver Assessor Trainer & Passenger Assistant Trainer
DVSA Fleet Registered Trainer

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#38 19-01-10 22:05:16

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

There is no evidence that the failure rate of over 90% across all three parts is in any way related to intensive training.. That is nonsense except as an opinion.. It is certainly not a fact and it is (deliberately) misleading to suggest it is one.

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#39 19-01-10 22:34:09

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

<THIS REPLY POSTED BEFORE ROBC DELETED HIS LAST POST>

Exactly.. Which is why the post people are congratulating is extremely misleading.

Macca is the MD of LDC and I'm sure it is more than conincidence that what he is saying is exactly what LDC does (thou it does tout intensives for its learners)...... and the things he is condemning using definite none facts is what his arch enemies at anoeth national school do.

By the way.... it isnt a 90% failure rate for Part 3........ it is an overall failure rate of 90% or greater.. The pass rate at Part 1 is around 50%, at Part 2 aroind 30% and Part 3 around 25%.

If 100 people start out only 50 get through Part 1.......... of that 50 only 15 get through part 2...... and of that 15 only 4 get through Part 3.

It's probably not quite as matehematical as that and the actual pass rate is probably above 4% but it sure isn't THAT much higher.

<AND THEN POSTED IT AGAIN SO NOW IT IS AFTER THIS, WHICH IS A REPLY TO THE FOLLOWING POST  :? >

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#40 19-01-10 22:34:44

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

I agree that comments that cannot be backed up with facts can be misleading, therefore if we accept that it is factual that there is a 90% failure rate for Pt3, we would have to know the factual percentage of PDI's that are trained intensively before we can establish if intensive training has any bearing on the failure rate.

If the factual percentage of PDi's that have been trained intensivley is low then it safe to assume that there is little relavence between intensive training and the high failure rate. If however there is a factual high percentage of PDI's that have been trained intensively, it stands to reason that as Macca suggests, there is some connection between intensive training and the high failure rate.


PS Not deleted, I just added another paragraph for clarification.


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Midas Minibus Driver Assessor Trainer & Passenger Assistant Trainer
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#41 19-01-10 22:41:04

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

If, if, if.

See my reply to the post you deleted.

Macca's assertion has no foundation and - like many things in this business - it is placing the chicken before the egg........ starting with the assumption that somehow or otehr intensive training is wrong because a certain school does it and then inventing data to support it.

The data do not exist to even assess the accusation let alone prove it or refute it.. Therefore it is just a belief (or prejudice).

You can't just keep randomly deciding some company or training system is not good just so it can be said another one is.. And that's what Macca is doing so be careful about getting sucked in.

(Might be worth doing a quick search of Macca's posts and looking at the bias that becomes apparent both for LDC and against a certain other school.. Then see how that fits in with his initial post here wink )

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#42 19-01-10 22:48:30

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

If, if, if.


The data do not exist to even assess the accusation let alone prove it or refute it.. Therefore it is just a belief (or prejudice).


I rather think we are making the same point, ie we need a factual precentage of those intensively trained before we can say that intensive training is a cause of the high failure rate of Pt3



www.midasbustraining.webs.com
Midas Minibus Driver Assessor Trainer & Passenger Assistant Trainer
DVSA Fleet Registered Trainer

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#43 19-01-10 22:53:54

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

Yes, as I said I agree.

But just be careful with what Macca says.. It always has a hiden edge......

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#44 20-01-10 19:58:52

Macca
Verified Member
Registered: 01-11-04
Posts: 193

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

One of the main reasons why there is such a high failure rate for part 3 is because the vast majority of people in the UK are trained for part 3 in some sort of intensive manner.

Exactly were did I say 90% fail at part 3. I think you need to learn how to read. I have never plugged LDC or indeed any other driving school or driving instructor school for that matter, however, I am not afraid to critise bad instructing pratice or less than honest selling/marketing irrespective of which company it is.

The failure rate over the whole process of becomming a driving instructor based on the last 10 years of published figures by the DSA is around 77% (i.e. about 23% make it onto the register). The pass rate for part 3 over that time has been around 28-30% (i.e. 70% of part 3 tests taken result in failure). The fact that 2 out of 3 tests result in failure would suggest very few pass on the first attempt and only pass on the second or third attempt after taking out a trainee license or buying additional 1-to-1 training with a trainer who treats the student as an individual. Indeed I know many good one-man trainers who make a healthy living rescuing people who have been on these intensive type courses for part 3.

The organisations who undertake some form of in-car intensive training for part 3 include Red driving school, Passmasters,, BSM, amoungst many others who collectively account for a high percentage of people being trained to become driving instructors.  Indeed Red alone probably trains more than 50% of those who buy a driving instructor training course as indicated by its accounts results. Indeed from other posts on this forum it can be seen that even LDC do intensive training as an option. So clearly a massive percentage of people are undertaking such intensive training for part 3 and the official pass rate comfirms how appalling the rate of success must be. I believe intensive training is a major contributing factor along with the lack of a suitable amount of in-car practice and the poor quality of some trainers.

Some courses only offered around 20 hours of in-car training on a 2 to 1 basis giving the student around 10 hours of actual practice as an instructor. I would guess fewer than 5% of those who take such intensive training for part 3 would have any chance of immediately passing the test following such training.

I have over 20 years experience in the industry operating a driving school and seen the results of hundreds of students training to become instructors both intensively and on a pace to suit the student - and guess what is the most successful? It should be obvious to anyone who understands even the basics about how we learn skills. Tailor made training to suit the students needs will always out perform a "one size fits all intensive course" by a significant amount assuming everthing else is equal.

Simples! wink

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#45 20-01-10 21:18:54

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

You didn't.. But in the absence of genuine facts from you, I DID say 90% fail because thats what the official figures indicate..... but I also pointed out that it is probably slightly less than that (which you are now confirming).

There is no evidence whatsoever - other than your own opinion which is hardly unbiased - that intensive courses lead to failure.

But if that IS the case then why does your own company trumpet the benefits of intensive training when it is trying to attract learners on its website?? No doubt your 'experience' will say that it is different for learners.

It was fairly obvious you were saying that what your company does is good, and what a certain (incredibly, this time: unnamed but definitly hinted at) other company does is bad.

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#46 21-01-10 05:51:50

michelle1970
Verified Member
Registered: 29-09-09
Posts: 32

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

I dont know any facts or figures but for me personally training a couple of hours a week over a long period of time has worked alot better, Ive been at it nearly a year now on part 3 and have only just booked my first attempt, I am not a slow learner but I like to absorb all the information given to me.

I have been in the training car on a friday afternoon with trainees who have done 40 hours in that week and ive seen how boggled their minds are, to me it was a waste of time/effort and money because you know that the information is just going over the top of their heads.  I've even seen the trainer send the trainee home after a couple of days because of been boggled.

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#47 21-01-10 06:53:45

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

Once you qualify, one thing that will keep you ahead of the rest is not to assume that your own experiences are the only valid ones.. Other people benefit and succeeed with intensive training and until it becomes ilegal there is nothing wrong with it.

Some people choose the pink route and others don't.. Are either group wrong??

Macca is on a campaign to promote LDC and put down the compnay which this time he miraculously hasn't named..... for the first time in a thousand or more tries.

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#48 21-01-10 07:32:31

michelle1970
Verified Member
Registered: 29-09-09
Posts: 32

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

I was talking about my own experience!

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#49 21-01-10 08:41:01

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

There may well be PDI's that are suited to intensive learning, however do the companies that offer this type of courses assess the training needs and suitability of the candidates before offering them a 'one size fits all' intensive course?
I can only speak from my personal experiences of both examining and training (remedial) these type of candidates, and I have come to the conclusion that generally speaking the standard produced by this intensive method is usually very poor (and not the fault of the PDI)
I feel that training companies should look at the content and structure of their course and  start offer the PDI the quality training that they deserve and pay for. :? 


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#50 21-01-10 09:37:09

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: is 40 hours enough ?

You might be right that it doesn't suit some people but it DOES suit others.. Oddly I think I have said that more than once.

As you said on Page 1 it depends on the quality of the training.. So the style is not relevent except to individuals is it??

You are playing into Macca's hands.. He only did this to promote LDC and to take yet another shot at his rivals  roll

Intensive courses are popular and they work........ FOR SOME PEOPLE.

Stretched out training also works and is popular.......... WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

No one can possibly say one is better than the other except as an opinion........ and it is especially dangerous doing it when Macca has made totally unproven and unprovable statements in order to promote his own company and to take yet another stab as his arch enemies in all this  roll

Whern some one like the OP has paid their money and needs to find a way forward having people trying hard as possible to promote themselves (their school, way of teaching, beliefs, etc.) at the expense of others is of no help whatsoever.

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