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#1 06-09-09 07:43:34

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

The 'six point check'

Hi
I am interested to know why ADI/PDI Trainers teach the six point check, in-particularly why the observation into the left blind spot is the first observation made.
This method is ineffective and causes hesitancy when moving away 


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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06-09-09 07:43:34

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Re: The 'six point check'



#2 06-09-09 08:17:05

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: The 'six point check'

It's not required by DSA, as long as mirrors are checked and over the right shoulder is checked that is suffice.

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#3 06-09-09 08:22:57

collywobs
Verified Member
From: Tonbridge Kent
Registered: 07-08-06
Posts: 479
Website

Re: The 'six point check'

It's not required by DSA, as long as mirrors are checked and over the right shoulder is checked that is suffice.

However, when moving off after the Emergency Stop, the left blind spot must also be checked!


Colin Kentish
Grade 6 DSA Approved Driving Instructor (car)
www.colinkentish.co.uk

Dream as if you'll live for ever
Live as if you'll die today

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#4 06-09-09 08:49:10

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: The 'six point check'

daz6215 wrote:

It's not required by DSA, as long as mirrors are checked and over the right shoulder is checked that is suffice.

However, when moving off after the Emergency Stop, the left blind spot must also be checked!


And the left and right reverse around corners lol, but moving away from a normal start it's not.

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#5 06-09-09 08:54:21

Madhatter
Verified Member
Registered: 19-12-08
Posts: 132

Re: The 'six point check'

I explain that the left blind spot is made to identify pedestrians who might be on the pavement and who might want to cross in front of our car.

Should we not be aware of what is happening all around the car before we move off? (Am now hiding behind the sofa - so let's have it...) tongue

Tim


Tim Moran - ADI Cornwall - www.timmoranschoolofmotoring.co.uk

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#6 06-09-09 08:57:06

collywobs
Verified Member
From: Tonbridge Kent
Registered: 07-08-06
Posts: 479
Website

Re: The 'six point check'

I explain that the left blind spot is made to identify pedestrians who might be on the pavement and who might want to cross in front of our car.

Should we not be aware of what is happening all around the car before we move off? (Am now hiding behind the sofa - so let's have it...) tongue

Tim

I agree Tim, a quick glance into the left blind spot ensures absolute safety and doesn't really cause any delay!


Colin Kentish
Grade 6 DSA Approved Driving Instructor (car)
www.colinkentish.co.uk

Dream as if you'll live for ever
Live as if you'll die today

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#7 06-09-09 09:07:21

driver69
Guest

Re: The 'six point check'

I teach the six point check but if there is any delay and you have to do checks again then don`t bother with the left blind spot unless there is something to be concerned about like a lot of people about. It also means when they come to the emergency stop they are less likely to forget the left blind spot.

#8 06-09-09 10:07:14

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: The 'six point check'

Thank you all for your views however I feel that you missing the point. Let me explain.
The left should check appears to be the first check that the 'pupil' are asked to make. Why?
If there is no gap to go into (mirror check) and/ or the situation ahead is unfavorable why make blind spot checks at that point in time. Surely the releveant blind spot check/s are final checks made into the areas of danger just prior to moving away. On most occasions it is not necessary to check over the left shoulder when moving away from the nearside kerb as the danger lies to the offside area that you are about to move into.
Pupils should be taught to fully assess the situation and use a common sense approach and check into the areas of actual or potential danger relative to the situation and the vehicles position.
Hope this makes my question clearer, so come out from behind the sofa and tell me what you think! 


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#9 06-09-09 10:19:24

EKAL
Verified Member
From: East Kilbride
Registered: 23-04-06
Posts: 1,050
Website

Re: The 'six point check'

I get them to continually scan looking for their gap, once they see a "potential" gap then carryout the 6 point check. 

One ADI about here looks for a 2nd "6th" check, he will ask pupils to carryout 1-6, then signal, then number 6 again, effectively 2 right blind spot checks,  I did hear that not so long ago that the SE wanted a word with him regarding this, dunno outcome


DSA ADI, DSA Fleet, RoADAR Diploma, RoADAR Gold.
SAFED for LGV/HGV - SAFED train the trainer
Driver CPC Trainer
www.agnewdrivertraining.co.uk

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#10 06-09-09 10:51:03

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: The 'six point check'

My thoughts are that the pupil should be told to assess the situation behind them using all mirrors, assess the situation ahead and once they have identified a suitable gap into which they can enter they should consider a signal and then make FINAL checks into the appropriate blind spot area/s, the mirrors and road ahead. This is the safest  method of moving away and ensures the pupil constantly assess the situation in the most effective and efficient manner.


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#11 06-09-09 11:10:07

jay666
Member
From: West Midlands
Registered: 15-04-09
Posts: 210
Website

Re: The 'six point check'

During my part 2 and 3 training i have been taught the 6 point check and agree that when moving away the left blind spot check is unnecessary although i don't really think it takes too much time so i am neither for or against it but will be using it when it comes to my part 3 test as its how i have been trained.

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#12 06-09-09 11:16:29

EKAL
Verified Member
From: East Kilbride
Registered: 23-04-06
Posts: 1,050
Website

Re: The 'six point check'

during my pt3 training I was taught left should blind spot, during my RoSPA advanced I was also taught it, during my RoSPA diploma i was taught it, never once did I think it was totally necessary until, sitting up the ind est with a pupil going through moving off and stop lesson plan when a bloke on a mountain bike came through a small woodland, across the footpath and right into our path as we were about to move off, this has been the one and only time it has happened and I only wish I had recorded it for all the "doubters" out there.

I will allways teach it, but as above, continually scan whilst waiting for gap.


DSA ADI, DSA Fleet, RoADAR Diploma, RoADAR Gold.
SAFED for LGV/HGV - SAFED train the trainer
Driver CPC Trainer
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#13 06-09-09 11:42:30

DampDog
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire.
Registered: 04-02-06
Posts: 1,538

Re: The 'six point check'

why the observation into the left blind spot

Is not the answer in the question, It's a blind spot, how can you know what's in it unless you look? Precognition?

Before you move away you're not just sitting there minding your own business, you're using the mirrors and looking for an appropriate gap to be able to do your observations. It take's a fraction of a second for the additional glance over the left shoulder. I truth I've only ever seen something that would affect my move away 2-3 times. It's still 2-3 things I wouldn't have seen had I not looked.


ADI (car)
1st CT (5)

I used to be a compleat idiot, until some bits fell off...

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#14 06-09-09 12:05:49

colin166
Verified Member
From: Rushden, Northants
Registered: 31-05-09
Posts: 152

Re: The 'six point check'

It is a bit like having a life boat on a ship, you think you will never need it but maybe one day you might and maybe one day there just might be something/someone there that is about to go in front of you just as you set off as EKAl pointed out.

Also I would say it would give a good impression to an examiner in a driving test.

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#15 06-09-09 12:18:00

smithwold
Verified Member
From: Berkshire
Registered: 18-08-07
Posts: 716
Website

Re: The 'six point check'

... sitting up the ind est with a pupil going through moving off and stop lesson plan when a bloke on a mountain bike came through a small woodland, across the footpath and right into our path as we were about to move off, this has been the one and only time it has happened and I only wish I had recorded it for all the "doubters" out there.

I will allways teach it, but as above, continually scan whilst waiting for gap.


That is precisely the reason I teach it.  Minimise any risk.

There are too many occassions when we think we know what is around us. I always teach to make decisions based on fact, not thought.

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#16 06-09-09 12:25:02

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: The 'six point check'

Hi my issue mainly relates to the timing of the left should check. Why is this check taught first prior to any other observations being made? 
I am perfectly aware of what a blind spot is, the discussion relates to the appropriate and relevant checks used to overcome those areas in relation to the prevailing circumstances.


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#17 06-09-09 12:37:54

smithwold
Verified Member
From: Berkshire
Registered: 18-08-07
Posts: 716
Website

Re: The 'six point check'

Check left blind spot first and sweep obs around in a horseshoe/rainbow to finish with the right one as this is where any specific danger may be as you are planning to move out towards it.
You have to start somewhere.  Why not with the least important one?

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#18 06-09-09 12:43:35

Madhatter
Verified Member
Registered: 19-12-08
Posts: 132

Re: The 'six point check'

Hi my issue mainly relates to the timing of the left should check. Why is this check taught first prior to any other observations being made?

I guess, and truth be told I'd not really thought about it, the main reason is because it forms part of a routine and scanning left to right is easier than some checks to the left, some to the right then back then front then left again or whatever. Another reason may be that for something to be in our blind spot for more than a second while we are stationary, they must be pretty stationary as well. If they aren't then we're going to pick them up again in our left mirror and then again possibly out front or in the rear mirror as we scan around.

ADI Education, you are absolutely right in what you say about scanning etc. but if I explain what you said to my pupils, and we should all do that, they still need to be told specifically when to look and where. No system is going to be 100% perfect but it gives them a starting point.
The opportunity is then for us to identify particular hazards when moving away from particular places such as bus stops or junctions and get them to start doing that themselves.

Glad you asked, made me think.
Tim


Tim Moran - ADI Cornwall - www.timmoranschoolofmotoring.co.uk

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#19 06-09-09 12:43:48

DampDog
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire.
Registered: 04-02-06
Posts: 1,538

Re: The 'six point check'

Why is this check taught first prior to any other observations being made?

It isn't though is it?

You're starting to think about moving away. So you're checking the centre and right door and ahead, are they not the ones you're going to see most of the road in?

When you see a suitable gap. you start your routine, (basically sweeping left-right) if all's clear you're gone. But becasue you're doing "effective observations" you may see something over the left shoulder (or anywhere else) that may change that.

There are a number of like-minded replies that seem to think it is necessary and safe, why do you think otherwise. (taking into account your history) What method would you recomend and why?


ADI (car)
1st CT (5)

I used to be a compleat idiot, until some bits fell off...

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#20 06-09-09 12:55:36

JonnyG
Verified Member
From: Belfast
Registered: 13-01-05
Posts: 742
Website

Re: The 'six point check'

I teeach the 6 pointer, and the reason I do left 1st is so the head does 1 sweep around the car. As we usually move right, away from the left kerb, it is essential that the right shoulder blindspot is the final check made (moving from right hand kerb will be opposite, as you may do from time to time)
Effective observations is the key...and like said above, look for a gap in centre and right mirror 1st, then 1 quick sweep left shoulder to right shoulder, via 3 mirrors, to confirm its safe. If its not, then an additional 2or3 pointer of centre to right shoulder could be made.

I find the biggest problem pupils have is waiting for the gap to pass before starting checks, also starting checks before a suitable biting point is reached. Both these problems are where the hesitancy comes from.

On most of my pupils 2nd lesson, once moving off can be done independantly, I give them 10 seconds to get the car moving(if its safe) then gradually reduce it  to 7 seconds.

5 seconds is sufficient time for them  to select 1st gear, set gas, get bite and have handbrake button pressed. during this 5 seconds they can also be looking if there is a reasonable gap.  Then 2 seconds to do the 6 pointer and drop handbrake.

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#21 06-09-09 13:00:21

Luchell
Verified Member
From: Salisbury
Registered: 12-06-07
Posts: 1,661

Re: The 'six point check'

It's very much a timing of the check issue and the validity of doing such a check at that moment in time. Situation relevant I would say, pupils need to understand when and why this check is done as opposed to turning into our local D.es worse nightmare of a selection of 'nodding dogs', which i might add don't go down well AT ALL at the test centre i use. To the point of many newbie pdi/adis being asked WHY their pupils are aimlessly nodding heads around the car as a matter of course as opposed to something that is a little different which is seeing a pupil using a 6 point check based on their assessment of the situation at any given time AND teaching the pupil how to time such a check correctly.

Initially pupils may not be capable of taking in the 'what why how' of a 6 point check so some may teach  the pupil to just do it regardless initially until they get to the point where they are able to make decisions with less help from us or no help. Transferring responsibility of the use of such a check once our pupils have gained the experience and knowledge necessary to receive less input from us.

Let's face it, towards the end stages of training a pupil should be able to do a decent 6 point check pretty quickly, timing it correctly for the road conditions at that moment in time, it doesn't take me long to whip a couple of checks out and to stop the check if i see something that is going to cause me to have to wait a moment anyhow, not much point going all the way to the end of the observations if i know i can't go anywhere anyway then having to start again, i can however match my timing so that whatever obstruction I have seen will be clear of the vehicle etc by the time i do my final check over my right blindspot i’m ready to go if that makes sense? What I don't want to see is a nodding dog go all the way round having NOT reacted to what they have already seen, they finish ALL the checks regardless, work out they can't go then start again. Leading to a cycle of hesitant move offs due to inappropriate timing of checks IF this isn't nipped in the bud early on or prevented.

This can actually go against a pupil on test obviously, the pupil is asked to move off and begins the good old nodding dog check with little or no regard to what’s going on around them.
I’m probably not explaining this too well so bare with me, I suppose really what I am trying to say is, is the issue really a 6 point check in itself, or is it bad timing and/or a lack of understanding within the pupil for whatever reason of such a check?  I know a few years back during a discussion the D.es made it clear that the left blindspot check was not needed each and every time and that pupils should be taught to UNDERSTAND and weigh up themselves the need for such a check. Yes I can understand some may think that’s mad and surely if it takes half a second if that to do then why not do it, since as even if in 1 million left blindspot checks no one is there if just that one time like Ekals example someone WAS indeed there surely all those checks would be more than worth it?
Therefore, these  days, although I dislike seeing a ‘nodding dog’ whose doing it for the sake of doing it, not doing it because they had assessed the need for one, or a pupil who is badly timing such checks I tend to encourage my guys to do such checks. When done CORRECTLY it won’t lose a pupil out in real life or on test so each to their own at the end of the day but I believe there IS such a place for a properly conducted thought out 6 point check.

Oh well, what a confusing essay, thought i would give it a go!    lol

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#22 06-09-09 13:26:58

keith williams
Verified Member
From: Bangor, Northern Ireland
Registered: 28-08-06
Posts: 458

Re: The 'six point check'

I don't teach '6point checks'

Observation should be all round and effective, least danger to most danger.

The 6point check method means they'll end up doing what Luchell was talking about, looking without seeing.

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#23 06-09-09 14:49:37

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: The 'six point check'

you are quite right it shouldn't be the first check however, I am repeatedly coming across PDI's and ADI'S giving this sort of useless instruction, and failing to even mention what the pupil is looking for, the road ahead check is rarely included, and once again we have the nodding dog syndrome of looking but not seeing.
Maybe it is an area thing and I need to get out more to see the correct procures implemented.
Thank you all for your views, there has been some interesting ones.


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#24 06-09-09 19:24:11

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: The 'six point check'

Effective Observations, at the Appropriate Time and Relevent to the Situation.

Centre mirror and right mirror whilst selecting gear. Asking the question, "Is it worth doing any other observations at this time?"

If there is approaching traffic from the rear that will delay my move off, what's the point in doing the rest of the observations at that time?

If the initial check for approaching traffic shows that an oppotunity to move off is available, then we can proceed to carry out the full observations sweep.

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#25 06-09-09 21:20:42

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: The 'six point check'

I am interested to know why ADI/PDI Trainers teach the six point check, in-particularly why the observation into the left blind spot is the first observation made.

Because that's what they were taught, just the same as those that were taught to teach manouvres using reference points and all the other examples you can come up with. Most will teach what they were taught to teach, simple as that. Some will question the accepted norm, most will just come out with the time honoured "well my trainer told me........."  big_smile


www.selbydriving.co.uk

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“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy
state of things.”
~ Winston Churchill

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