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#1 27-05-09 14:09:44

FAZ
Member
Registered: 18-11-08
Posts: 32

PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

HI ALL,could any1 help me on this,i had a go at a crossroads pst phase 1 with my trainer,went through the briefing digging deep on mspsl routine as he already done emerging and turning l/r,got all info on the routine and then i added the extra look on it as its crosroads,also added the priority bit,n types of xroads.he got all that and off we went,on the road he suddenly stopped for a pedestrian as a pedestrain was crossing(just on a straight road,not even near a xroad),ok nw here is the question,at the end of the pst the trainer goes to me i went into emerging n turning subjects instead of xroads,also he said i wasnt controlling him,thats y he stopped fr the pedestrians.according to my understanding arent we suppoesd to link up with previous subjects,so he should know already all that as he has done it,as he already given us the answers and is ok with dat,xroads is a link up to emerging and turning l/r.the diff is just extra look n priorities.abit confuse now???????//

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27-05-09 14:09:44

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Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED



#2 29-05-09 06:17:10

mcculde
Verified Member
From: SOUTH HANTS
Registered: 30-09-08
Posts: 60

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

Faz it sounds to me your trainer was looking for something along the lines of ok that is as much about crossroads as I would like to explain to you lets go out now onto the drive and if there are any issues in your driving that I notice we can discuss this out on the road. Even though it is phase 1 you still have to cover and deal with other situations that arise when driving. Phase 1 and Phase 2 differ with the amount of briefing and the initial amount of instruction however you must take control of your pupil at all times regardless of the subject and the word picture. Phase1 full instruction to begin with and then prompt if knowledge transfer takes place. Phase2 Q and A to begin with but may have to prompt or even full instruction if not getting the correct response. Too many times we get caught up in oh phase 2 I must only Q and A this is not true. You must deal with whatever arises out on the road.

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#3 31-05-09 20:55:53

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

Sounds like a "trainer" not sure about the training, this is clearly NOT what to do, your "revision" of T junctions and Left and Right turns is appropriate, its called a RECAP!!! So well done on that, and to just stop for a pedestrian is plain daft, and produces absolutely no confidence in the trainers ability to train the subject at all.

I would seek a new trainer right away, this person is confusing you completely.

Martyn Bryan

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#4 31-05-09 23:02:01

FAZ
Member
Registered: 18-11-08
Posts: 32

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

THANKS ALL,i knew i was on the right path,my old trainer always told me to teach from the known to unknown,eg if they know mspsl then they know it n we try use that to link with the next subject,thanks again bryann all

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#5 01-06-09 17:15:38

Graham Hooper
Verified Member
From: Ashford Kent
Registered: 12-02-06
Posts: 223
Website

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

Hi

Please remember that the trainer should portay faults with in the Key Learning Points, pedestrians is one of those KLP'S . It is difficult to criticise the trainer or the client as we where not there. Just because the client was able to establish a link and transfer learning between two subjects, the knowledge may be fine the practical understanding and the pupils lack of experience still needs strong guidance. Make sue you know the KLP's and try to teach them with in the PST's. Prevention is better than cure.


www.1st-4.org
www.tri-coachingpartnership.co.uk
Part 3 Rescue a speciality, Fleet/Learner check test, Coaching courses, Advanced driving SAFED, ADI-CPD or if just want some advice.

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#6 01-06-09 17:28:05

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

That is slightly different, as the OP asked about crossroads,  the examiner will NOT simulate faults on Pedestrian Crossings on this particular exercise, and that was the original question.

Martyn Bryan

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#7 02-06-09 06:40:54

Graham Hooper
Verified Member
From: Ashford Kent
Registered: 12-02-06
Posts: 223
Website

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

Martyn I am not criticising your answer, I do think it is a lttle harsh to say change your trainer based on the information available. We where not there and it would be reasonable to hear the trainers explanation, it was also not on a pedestrian crossing but a pedestrian crossing I have no idea whether the trainer took the correct action or not. I can only put myself in this situation and may have been prompting the PDI for some instruction and did not receive any but who knows.
Finally I totally agree that the examiner will not stray from the KLP's on the set PST.


www.1st-4.org
www.tri-coachingpartnership.co.uk
Part 3 Rescue a speciality, Fleet/Learner check test, Coaching courses, Advanced driving SAFED, ADI-CPD or if just want some advice.

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#8 02-06-09 07:27:04

ijmoore
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
Website

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

My understanding is that SE will simulate faults based on key learning points, but MAY also put other faults in.  Of course in reality clients will not just make faults on the subject you are trying to do. 

It should be clear what your trainer is doing though - ask them why they simulated them faults?  You should be 110% clear on what you are expected to do, and how to do it. 

Noticed you said known to unknown - totally, but remember that as a client I may KNOW MSPSL, but forget it half way round!  And I will have strengths and weaknesses using the routine, especially during a new subject like crossroads. 

As far as known to unknown, crossroads will require some talk through instruction at some stages, especially is potentially dangerous situations. 


Fleet Training
Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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#9 02-06-09 09:12:04

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
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Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

As Iain says, just because the client KNOWS about MSPSL, it doesnt mean he can do it all the time.

Also, he may be great at applying MSPSL at a left turn, but hes never applied it at a x-roads before.

Dont assume that because a client (or SE) can do something correctly for an off topic subject that he can do it AT ALL with the on subject topic.

I usually say that examiner will put in a totally off topic fault, or an on topic fault in an off topic situation on test for 1 of 4 reasons.

1. The fault is an actual error of the examiner himself. If u core comp it, he wont do it again (even if he personally feels there was nothing wrong with what he did, it's off topic so he wont labour the issue although he may comment on it after the test).
2. He's displayed the fault during an on topic situation that hasnt been addressed, and is now displaying the fault elsewhere in the hope the candidate will address it.
3. The examiner beleives that the candidate has incorrectly advised the "pupil" on a point of law or safety, he may labour the fault and openly question the candidate, just as a normal pupil would.
4.The candidate has been going off topic, and has ignored at least 1 hint from the examiner.  the examiner will then allow the candidate to cotinue off topic and will follow the candidates lead wherever the candidate goes. (A good example I know of was a candidate that laboured cockpit checks on ped-x PST. The examiner went overboard on fiddling with head restraint and mirrors because the candidate ignored the fact the examiner had done the checks quickly and ignored the examiners initial answers regarding the checks).  It resulted in a grade 2 for that phase.

If you had failed to deal with pedestrian activity whilst approaching, negotiating or regressing  at x-roads, your trainer may well have taken the decision to give a really obvious example of not understanding apying priorities with pedestrians.

I can see a reason why he may have done what he did, (although i personally wouldn't have done as he did) If you had already totally ignored the fact that he was negotiating a x-roads with pedestrian activity at it and you had not addressed priorities.

I'd recommend asking your trainer why he chose to act as he did to try to understand his motives.

If it occurred before an example of pedestrian activy actually occurred at a x-roads, I think he was not behaving as an examiner would. however if it occured after a x-roads example, then I think he was acting appropriately, although maybe not in the same way as I would. (Afterall, there IS a safety issue surrounding stopping for a pedestrian at the kerbside, and one that I wouldn't personally want to perform myself).

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#10 02-06-09 13:00:41

Graham Hooper
Verified Member
From: Ashford Kent
Registered: 12-02-06
Posts: 223
Website

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

WOW and he was only confused, I reckon he is bewildered as well. I agree ask the trainer, learning is in the feedback you receive rather than the success.


www.1st-4.org
www.tri-coachingpartnership.co.uk
Part 3 Rescue a speciality, Fleet/Learner check test, Coaching courses, Advanced driving SAFED, ADI-CPD or if just want some advice.

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#11 02-06-09 19:05:30

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

Yes it was a bit strong to critique the trainer, I just thought it was a bit tough on the trainee, and wanted to clearly emphasise the point I was trying to make, hope no harm done

Martyn

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#12 02-06-09 20:16:34

Graham Hooper
Verified Member
From: Ashford Kent
Registered: 12-02-06
Posts: 223
Website

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

I am sure that who ever it is hasn't read it and as long as we don't know who it is it doesn't matter. As a trainer of some years, I have learnt most by getting it wrong first. My current clients benefit the most from my previous mistakes. I will continue to make them but hopefully it becomes rarer and rarer. I appreciate the point you where making.


www.1st-4.org
www.tri-coachingpartnership.co.uk
Part 3 Rescue a speciality, Fleet/Learner check test, Coaching courses, Advanced driving SAFED, ADI-CPD or if just want some advice.

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#13 02-06-09 22:16:49

FAZ
Member
Registered: 18-11-08
Posts: 32

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

HI ALL WOW,its amazing how much my topic is being read,just to make u all in the clear,the peestrian was on a straight road not anywhere near the x-roads thats y i am soooooo confused,yes on the x-roads the trainer did ask me whats an x-roads which i took as a hint and explained to him that it was similar to a t-junction but with an extra road across,hence the extra look and priority comes into it.even being on a pink 1 i never had a learner stop like that ,coz they all know pedestrian priorities as soon as their on the actual psts/lessons.well well lets see how my 1st hurdle of part 3 goes on,next month.looking to conquer it at first shot,ty all

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#14 05-06-09 18:35:57

Spike
Verified Member
Registered: 26-01-09
Posts: 285

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

Sounds like a "trainer" not sure about the training, this is clearly NOT what to do, your "revision" of T junctions and Left and Right turns is appropriate, its called a RECAP!!! So well done on that, and to just stop for a pedestrian is plain daft, and produces absolutely no confidence in the trainers ability to train the subject at all.

Plain daft it may be, but it's what the examiner did on my Part 3 (PST 1 - Crossroads, phase 2) and also what real pupils can do from time to time.

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#15 05-06-09 20:13:49

ams
Verified Member
From: West Pinchbeck, Spalding, Linc
Registered: 03-01-07
Posts: 199

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

Examiners can & will make faults that are not PST related - wether deliberate or not. What they won't be able to do is mark you on it, unless it has some bearing or link with the subject. Pedestrians are an important aspect to be dealt with as part of a junctions-based PST. As a trainer, I will make faults outside of a PST, particularly if there is a lack of or incorrect instruction - I am trying to prepare my clients for real life as well as test situations. By not making 'other faults' I would be wasting training opportunities. As long as your trainer can explain why they did something then they are just utilising the opportunities to give you a variety of experiences and learning situations.


Qualified Oct 2001 - 1st Attempt 5/4.
Cardington Grade A.
Institute of Advanced Motorists.
NVQ A1 Assessors Award.
ORDIT registered parts 1, 2 & 3.
Grade 6 - April 07

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#16 06-06-09 09:43:31

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

The OP was asking a question based upon his approach to a particular subject, and I answered that accordingly.

An important aspect of this convesation is to realise that the Part 3 is completely false in terms of the manner an ADI would deal with a pupil, i have been compaigning for a good time now to change this for the better.

There is another consultation next year to deal with the ADI qualifying process, and hopefully this ancient and not fit for purpose test will be withdrawn in favour of modular training monitored by the driving school or trainer.

I am certain this would be a step too  far for the DSA, however a register of like minded trainers might be able to have a scheme in place that helps trainees achieve better results by increased understanding of the criteria required to be an effective driver traiiner.

I konw this is a bit off track re this subject, but there you go.

martyn bryan

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#17 06-06-09 15:29:00

Graham Hooper
Verified Member
From: Ashford Kent
Registered: 12-02-06
Posts: 223
Website

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

Hi

I have for some time acheived about an 80% pass rate for the part 3 exam, by on the whole ignoring PST training and concentrating on coaching the PDI to help the pupil to learn by a variety of techniques. It transfers nicely to teach them to drive rather than pass the test. Help them become an instructor rather than pass a test.


www.1st-4.org
www.tri-coachingpartnership.co.uk
Part 3 Rescue a speciality, Fleet/Learner check test, Coaching courses, Advanced driving SAFED, ADI-CPD or if just want some advice.

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#18 12-06-09 06:26:10

ijmoore
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
Website

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

Totally Graham, totally agree with what you say about PSTs. 

I'm not sure I agree with the statement ams says about what can and cannot be marked.  Surely If I did a great job at focusing ONLY on pst, and ignored all other faults, I wouldn't and shouldn't pass the Part 3.


Fleet Training
Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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#19 12-06-09 06:35:44

Graham Hooper
Verified Member
From: Ashford Kent
Registered: 12-02-06
Posts: 223
Website

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

The problem the examiner has is that the marking sheet only covers the Key Learning Points. It is fair to say that the examiner will not drift very far from the KLP's as that is what the PDI will be marked on.
Set the lesson plan to deal with the KLP's and then deal with anything else that occurs. The examiner will transfer the KLP's to other situations.
For example on the Turn In the Road, the examiner will portray faults that are transferable, so the faults will start in the car park with relation to control, accuracy observation. They are unlikely to have good clutch control, poor observation and faults in relation to the accuracy.


www.1st-4.org
www.tri-coachingpartnership.co.uk
Part 3 Rescue a speciality, Fleet/Learner check test, Coaching courses, Advanced driving SAFED, ADI-CPD or if just want some advice.

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#20 12-06-09 17:42:22

ams
Verified Member
From: West Pinchbeck, Spalding, Linc
Registered: 03-01-07
Posts: 199

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

I'm not sure I agree with the statement ams says about what can and cannot be marked.  Surely If I did a great job at focusing ONLY on pst, and ignored all other faults, I wouldn't and shouldn't pass the Part 3.

On a recent visit to do some training in Northern Ireland, I had the pleasure of sitting in on a Pt3 and the subsequent debrief. The Examiner in conversation about Pt3 in general stated that she had on several occasions "had to ignore incorrect and dangerous instruction because it was not related to the PST and therefore could not be marked". You can believe it or not but I heard it with my own ears.


Qualified Oct 2001 - 1st Attempt 5/4.
Cardington Grade A.
Institute of Advanced Motorists.
NVQ A1 Assessors Award.
ORDIT registered parts 1, 2 & 3.
Grade 6 - April 07

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#21 12-06-09 19:28:45

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: PST CROSSROADS CONFUSED

That might have been the case, however the examiner in the introduction HAS to say to correct any driving faults you may see,

Marking on the PST sheets is specific to the exercise, and as such cannot be "outside the box" so to speak, and you are correct, there is nowhere to mark it.

The point is that the examiner should NOT be making driving faults that are NOT markable. Whilst the test remains specific to a subject, the intention has to be to stick to it.

A whole new debate could be opened as to the improvement required for the Part Three, the consultation starts next year.

Martyn Bryan

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