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#1 13-05-09 10:16:06

sue martin
Verified Member
From: National area franchises
Registered: 21-01-05
Posts: 333
Website

Anyone training with the A.A.

Hi everyone, l have recently been chatting to someone who trained with the A.A. , they felt they would benefit from going on a pink licence to practice but had not been given any advice how to go about this by the A.A. and l wanted to know if this is the case generally.. so are you training or trained with the A.A. and if so what advice did they give ref pink licences..
many thanks
Sue


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Re: Anyone training with the A.A.




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#2 16-05-09 16:03:21

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

The AAds will not suggest the pink licence as they do not have any trainees on their books.

That being the case it limits their earning potential, as many trainees might go elsewhere for the hours they almost always need following the end of the AAds course, (it is never enough!!)

I hope this helps those looking for a training establishment, pre pay courses rarely give you sufficient training or support to pass your tests without extra investment in further training.

Martyn Bryan

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#3 16-05-09 16:21:44

oldcodger
Verified Member
Registered: 25-04-09
Posts: 106

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

Sue. Are you related to Colin?

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#4 16-05-09 16:40:29

Woodyloon
Verified Member
From: North East Scotland
Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 64

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

The AAds will not suggest the pink licence as they do not have any trainees on their books.

That being the case it limits their earning potential, as many trainees might go elsewhere for the hours they almost always need following the end of the AAds course, (it is never enough!!)

I hope this helps those looking for a training establishment, pre pay courses rarely give you sufficient training or support to pass your tests without extra investment in further training.

Martyn Bryan

Hi Martyn

Interested with your comment re AA training, I was hoping to sign up for the training with the AA after doing a lot of research. Your point is that the training offered by the AA will not be sufficient to allow me to progress say with an AA franchise or any other direction without doing extra hours training above the hours offered with the training course. You are suggesting that an AA person on one of there training courses is going to have to search for extra hours to achieve a green badge.If this is the facts then this could be a problem for myself as for one there is not an abundance of other independent trainers in and around my area,which would mean having to arrange with my coach extra training or go with another school, which defeats the object of looking at the AA in the first place. Also IMO I was not convinced if being allowed to give lesson on a pink lic is appropriate, I just think you should either be qualified or not to give a lesson, but maybe my lack of knowledge on this subject is making me look at that the wrong way.
I would be very eager to hear from anybody else their  thoughts on this please before I commit myself to any training.

Thanks

John


Part 1   30/10/09   100/67
Part 2   29/9/10     2 d/f

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#5 16-05-09 16:50:10

oldcodger
Verified Member
Registered: 25-04-09
Posts: 106

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

Happy to offer an opinion John. I think pink badges should be made illegal. There is no benefit at all to a pupil in having an unqualified instructor and it serves only to have a PDI out on their own to learn as they go. Very dangerous in my opinion and often counter productive as PDI's can find themselves in situations they are neither preferred for or able to deal with.

You would be happy for a trainee surgeon to operate on your heart - under the strict supervision and guidance of the qualified surgeon yes. Would you be happy for the same trainee to just have a go on their own? I wouldn't. I appreciate that teaching driving is not even in the same world as far as skill is concerned to a surgeon, but the principle is the same.

So, I agree with your thoughts that you should either be qualified or not to give a lesson. I have no doubt that many will disagree. Especially one certain Swindon based AA trainer who doesn't realise who I actually am!

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#6 16-05-09 17:19:34

Woodyloon
Verified Member
From: North East Scotland
Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 64

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

Hi

Thanks for your feedback, I can see what the pink lic is used for and I also appreciate that a lot of people will look at this differently to myself. I do agree that if you are not ready to teach then this could cause  problems. In the end that pupil or pupils might then need to go to another ADI and initially they might be wasting there money getting things already taught changed. I know this could also apply to an experienced Adi's, just because everyone will adapt there training methods to suit their personalties. I think, just now anyway that you should only start gaining more experience when you have your green badge. Most people who gain their green badge will only improve by the experience gained, after being apply to prove , to begin with that they can master the part 3 in the 1st instance.
Maybe one way to gain more experience, would be to sit in on actual driving lessons. pass pluses, refreshers etc by Adi's, either your coach's or trainers pupils/customers, if they were comfortable with this. Then what you learn from this will benefit you more as it is not so pressurised and you can see how an experienced ADI teaches . I believe this will help even more on your part 3, as you can have a debrief after the lesson and pick up more relevant  points, more so than if you are on your own and maybe a bit out of your depths, I'm  not sure what you gain from that type of situation.
This is just the way I have looked at this process and how I feel I want my training to progress, and I want to tap into to as much experience as possible before I am set loose on my own.

John


Part 1   30/10/09   100/67
Part 2   29/9/10     2 d/f

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#7 16-05-09 18:54:35

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

The AAds will not suggest the pink licence as they do not have any trainees on their books.

That being the case it limits their earning potential, as many trainees might go elsewhere for the hours they almost always need following the end of the AAds course, (it is never enough!!)

The AA training course covers 60 hours of training.  Which may, or may not, be enough.  The trainee has the option to add more hours if necessary.  One would hope they will ask for these extra hours from their trainer.  When you were at the AA, did many of your trainees go elsewhere or did they pay you for extra time?

I hope this helps those looking for a training establishment, pre pay courses rarely give you sufficient training or support to pass your tests without extra investment in further training.

Martyn Bryan

I'm sure you gave your trainees the support they needed as did/do many other ex and current AA trainers.  I would find it hard to believe that you only became a good trainer once you left teh AA.

Sue. Are you related to Colin?

I believe they're husband and wife Shirley

Happy to offer an opinion John. I think pink badges should be made illegal
.........
So, I agree with your thoughts that you should either be qualified or not to give a lesson. I have no doubt that many will disagree. Especially one certain Swindon based AA trainer who doesn't realise who I actually am!

I have never been quite sure about the pink licence.  In theory the PDI should have the knowledge to be able to train a learner.  I know I benefited a lot from the pink licence.  The problem is it does get abused.  It should be there to enable a PDI to put some of what he is learning into practise.  Not to earn a living on it though.  Building up the hours to 25/30 hours only detracts from teh training and preparation for the part 3 test.  It is an easy trap to fall into - I fell into it, as I'm sure others did.  Consequently I went right through to the 3rd attempt on part 3, not something I would recommend.

If a pink licence is used intelligently (2 or 3 pupils with support from the trainer) then it can be beneficial, abused both the learner's & the PDI's training is compromised.

Should I know who you actually are, Shirley?  Where are you based?

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#8 16-05-09 23:03:48

Disky
Verified Member
From: Central Scotland
Registered: 10-03-05
Posts: 1,333
Website

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

I think pink badges should be made illegal. There is no benefit at all to a pupil in having an unqualified instructor and it serves only to have a PDI out on their own to learn as they go.

At last some constructive posting smile

Yes oldcodger, it is your opinion, and that is great, but a pink licence holder is allowed to charge for their instruction.

and i'm really going to bleep folkof now and say that if i was a learner i would probably rather a PDI teach me to drive than an established ADI with 20+ years under their belt, and the reason is clear................... How may ADI's of more than 20years standing undergo further training ? i would say perhaps 1% if that.

It is my experience, and opinion that these ADI's are the ones driving down the prices and providing really bad tuition. (remember, thats only my experience & opinion wink )

However, i stongly agree with Nigel that the pink is all to often abused and it should be monitored and goverened is some way which makes the trainer be present in the car when the PDI is giving a lesson.

I'm sure most learners would be ok with that if they were advised how and why it was happening like that.

Ray





On reading down further,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Nigel you posted this

[img=Verdana]I'm sure you gave your trainees the support they needed as did/do many other ex and current AA trainers.  I would find it hard to believe that you only became a good trainer once you left teh AA.[/img]

Now call me cynical but that is not your usual posting style when your not having a go a people, whether openly or subliminally,,,,,, do you perhaps work for the AA ?

just a hunch

Damn, i should have been a detective smile

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#9 16-05-09 23:16:06

Disky
Verified Member
From: Central Scotland
Registered: 10-03-05
Posts: 1,333
Website

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

Hi Woodyloon,

I think Martyn was suggesting that no matter where you train and with who, the training almost always needs topped up as there is only so much you can get into 40 hours or whatever they offer.

I think most people would agree with that.

Ray

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#10 17-05-09 08:09:11

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

....On reading down further,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Nigel you posted this

[img=Verdana]I'm sure you gave your trainees the support they needed as did/do many other ex and current AA trainers.  I would find it hard to believe that you only became a good trainer once you left teh AA.[/img]

Now call me cynical but that is not your usual posting style when your not having a go a people, whether openly or subliminally,,,,,, do you perhaps work for the AA ?

On this post, it is irrelevant whether I am with the AA or not (and I have never hidden the fact that I am with the AA & rarely, if ever, have I posted overly biased towards the AA).  I know Martyn used to be with the AA and was simply trying to point out that it is always the individual trainer, whether independent or with a Franchise, that provides the support & added value.

just a hunch

Damn, i should have been a detective smile

Perhaps you should have been. big_smile

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#11 17-05-09 09:12:50

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

Goodness this forum is lively!!!

Nigel you know that I was a trainer 6 years PRIOR to joining the AAds, I was the only ORDIT registered Trainer working within the AAds at the time they started the DIT training.

Indeed I was at the course that introduced DIT training to the AAds.

It quickly became clear that the course was NOT designed in the manner we all wanted, and a compromise had been reached which bought it in line with ALL pre pay courses, although they tried to sell it as pay as you go, (they simply charged for three separate segments, hardly the same)

The lack of quality and support from the AAds was the main reason I left, I put in a proposal for change, which they turned down, (I notice now a good deal of the proposal was used by the Training Manager to set up the "new" system, .....)

My post was to point out that paying up front for courses rarely gives the necessary amount of time to pass all three parts of the ADI qualification.

I am CERTAIN that the vast majority of trainers, (AAds or other) are completely conscientious and do the very best for all their clients. Most do this despite the company they work for not because of them.......I know Nigel you are of this persuasion.

As for trainee licences, the AA do use a strap line they are "proud of" in that they do not use trainees, however this is myopic, and properly used and monitored, a trainee licence can be a real help to both the ADI and the future pupil.

I monitor my trainees in such a way that they learn on the job. Who are the DSA to say whether that person is capable of giving a full service to the pupil, based on a one hour "assessment"

I could go on for some time as to the benefits of a new and more rigorous qualification process, I will not bore you with that here.

Would you ever put someone in a job and leave them to it JUST because they passed and exam????????

Especially one so flawed?????

not me, i think  trainee licences should be mandatory, last for at least one year, (I would call them probationary licences) and ensure the sponsoring ADI took full responsibility for the training and full qualification of that "apprentice"

Enjoy your day,

Regards

Martyn

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#12 17-05-09 09:19:00

Disky
Verified Member
From: Central Scotland
Registered: 10-03-05
Posts: 1,333
Website

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

not me, i think  trainee licences should be mandatory, last for at least one year, (I would call them probationary licences) and ensure the sponsoring ADI took full responsibility for the training and full qualification of that "apprentice"

Enjoy your day,

Regards

Martyn

Agree with you there, sadly, some of the sponsoring ADI's just look at it as a renvenue stream and never actually monitor the performance of the PDI, far less actually go with them on a lesson, which is a great shame.

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#13 17-05-09 12:23:29

Lily-Anne
Verified Member
From: Northampton
Registered: 21-05-07
Posts: 606
Website

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

However, as the trainee licence is to be phased out, we can assume that it will be of no consequence in the not too distant future.

Training is dependant on two things, how much work you put in and how you gel with your trainer.  You may have a recommended trainer who has an excellent record, however, if you cannot get on, then your training is of little value.  If you do not put in ## amount of hours each week to compound your learning then it will cost you more in the end.

LA


http://www.centraladitraining.co.uk
BA, Dip Di, Cardington 'A', NLP Practitioner using coaching as a life skill.
http://www.aicoachingsolutions.com

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#14 17-05-09 14:47:41

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

This was once a proposal, but has NOT been put in statute, and phasing out the trainee licence would be a backward step, plenty of ADIs, training companies and ORDIT registered establishments would be  dead against this, cannot see it happening.......

but you never know......

Martyn Bryan

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#15 17-05-09 19:26:21

Lily-Anne
Verified Member
From: Northampton
Registered: 21-05-07
Posts: 606
Website

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

Only because they make money out of PDI's with franchise fees.  The Trainee licence scheme has been removed from the RTA for the very purpose of this.  As an ORDIT registered trainer, I feel there are far better ways of trainees gaining experience.

LA


http://www.centraladitraining.co.uk
BA, Dip Di, Cardington 'A', NLP Practitioner using coaching as a life skill.
http://www.aicoachingsolutions.com

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#16 18-05-09 08:38:56

martyn48
Guest

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

Some do that is correct, but those responsible enough to actually care DO exist, and want to improve  their business by having well trained and motivated ADIs/PDIs, cynicism is rife, but in this case sometimes misplaced!!!

Perhaps you might give us methods you believe are better??

#17 28-05-09 12:52:31

bezzaboy1978
Verified Member
Registered: 28-05-09
Posts: 22

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

Hi Guys, very interesting topic this one and one that could go on forever as I can see advantages and disadvantages to both sides. I am currently doing my part 3 with the AA and my instructor in my opinion is superb and has provided me with so much great material which he has developed over the years and he has a proven success rate (he doesn't really like the official AA material). His take on the pink badge is simple, if you have a good trainer, the correct training and information and put blood and sweat into your study with lots of practice, you shouldn't need to go pink and will probably achieve green quicker.  smile

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#18 30-05-09 06:30:13

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

I can see where you are at, who is your trainer? anyone with this outlook should be named, seems he really cares.....

The other side of things re the pink licence, I guess we will all have our different opinion, I believe that passing the test is one thing, being able to TEACH is another, and before you went out on your own I would want to be mentoring you for the first few months of your teaching career, you will not get this if you simply pass the part three and then go on to teach with a large franchise, despite their promises!!


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#19 02-06-09 13:14:56

bezzaboy1978
Verified Member
Registered: 28-05-09
Posts: 22

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

I see your point on that Martyn but I have a different view on that. I have worked very very hard on training and HOPEFULLY becoming an ADI. Once qualified, this is where you get the feeling of pride that all of your hard work has paid off, all 3 exams passed and the opportunity to start your own business which is what a lot of people strive for. I feel that after all that time studying and practising and passing the exams, only to be mentored further for a few months would be quite demoralising, almost as if you are still not trusted to be able to teach pupils.Surely if you were not up to the standard of being able to teach, you would fail part 3?   roll

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#20 02-06-09 19:07:25

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

Well would you put a new police officer into the job without a mentor?

would you want a surgeon to be "on his own " for his first operation?

Just a thought!!!

Martyn

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#21 02-06-09 20:12:05

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

we're not police officers and we're not surgeons.. we're driving instructors and this current method has worked well enough for many years.. thats not to say it shouldnt change but no point creating situations and stories where there arent any.

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#22 02-06-09 20:50:59

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

Shame you don't see the big picture, lack of vision is the reason this profession is down in the doldrums, burying ones head in the sand is ok for you, but not for me, if you wish to be below average, only JUST good enough then so be it, being an ADI is a responsible position, more people die on the roads each week than on the operating table, or in a police station, we have a duty of care to be as good as we possibly can,  if you believe the DSA qualifying exams REALLY prepare someone to do this job completely and fully, then you need a reality check

I have been doing this job 20 years, and still find ways to be better at what I do, and training ADIs is a real responsibility for me too, I would hate to think that any ADI I trained had such a negative approach to their Continuing Professional Development.

Martyn Bryan

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#23 02-06-09 22:46:41

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

hey watch who your calling "below average".

i'm just a realist.. I teach people to drive and i dont need to big myself up into some thing i'm not or set out on a mission to fight the big schools.

I'm all for CPD.. I draw the line at comparing myself with surgeons.... actually, i draw the line a lot lower than that because thats where it is for ADIs.. It isnt up there with skilled professionals and it never will be.

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#24 02-06-09 23:02:35

evanadi
Guest

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

Shame you don't see the big picture, lack of vision is the reason this profession is down in the doldrums, burying ones head in the sand is ok for you, but not for me, if you wish to be below average, only JUST good enough then so be it, being an ADI is a responsible position, more people die on the roads each week than on the operating table, or in a police station, we have a duty of care to be as good as we possibly can,  if you believe the DSA qualifying exams REALLY prepare someone to do this job completely and fully, then you need a reality check

I have been doing this job 20 years, and still find ways to be better at what I do, and training ADIs is a real responsibility for me too, I would hate to think that any ADI I trained had such a negative approach to their Continuing Professional Development.

Martyn Bryan

Excellent post Martyn, thought provoking and probing. Well put, and well done. Ev


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#25 03-06-09 05:04:42

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Anyone training with the A.A.

....It isnt up there with skilled professionals and it never will be.

I've always thought that we are skilled professionals.

Bezzaboy, I think you have an odd view on the term mentoring.  Mentoring is a role where the newly qualified instructor can turn to the mentor to discuss any concerns.  I cannot see how being mentored can posibly be demoralising.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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