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#26 12-05-09 23:40:17

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

Contravention of pedestrian crossing regulations is a strict liability offence;

A strict liability offence does not require proof of any knowledge or fault on the part of defendant

Similar to driving without insurance or drink driving, you either have insurance or you don't, you are either over the limit or you aren't. IF somebody is within the confines of a pedestrian crosssing and you proceed through and that person (for whatever reason) turns and walks back or falls over backwards or whatever daft scenario people want to come up with occurs whilst you are going through, then an offence is committed. IF you then collide with that person there is no argument or defence, you should not have proceeded whilst they were on any part of the crossing. It is possible to plead mitigating circumstances, but as with no insurance or drink driving it won't get you very far.

Arguing the toss about interpretation in the real world is pointless, the original thread mentioned was about what should be taught on part 3, teaching people to break the law or put their own interpretation on it is not going to go down well with the S/E. What is required on part 3 is clear concise unambiguous instruction, debate all you like about interpretation on the forum, but don't try it with the S/E. Just tell him what the H/C says.



www.selbydriving.co.uk

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“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same
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12-05-09 23:40:17

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Re: Pelican Crossings



#27 13-05-09 06:54:10

pedigreemalc
Verified Member
From: derby
Registered: 20-04-08
Posts: 134

Re: Pelican Crossings

the h/c says that you should give way to anyone on the crossing. that means if they are still on the crossing going in which ever direction WAIT. what many of you are forgetting is the crossing with a central refuge which is part of the SAME crossing in the h/c it says that if the pedestrian is on the otherside walking away then you can proceed but that means if they are walking towards you then you have to WAIT. therefor to all of you who say you can go at a crossing when someone is still crossing THIS IS the only time it applies


been there done that got the t`shirt

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#28 13-05-09 08:34:32

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Pelican Crossings

malc i'm sorry but "give way" doesnt mean that.. this is the problem.. people assume it means that.

setting aside what tony says for the purposes of this discussion, you "give way" to people when you come to a t-junction but it doesnt mean you have to stop.. You "give way" when a car somes the opposite way on a narrow road but you don't have to stop.. It means.... well..... that you "give way".... or in other words dont try and occupy the same space they do until they have moved sufficiently out of the way for you to move safely.

if "give way" meant some thing as important as "stop until they are off the crossing" then it would say that.

I found these definitions on the web:

"In road transport, a YIELD (Canada, Ireland, and the United States) or GIVE WAY (most current or former Commonwealth countries) traffic sign indicates that a vehicle driver must slow down and prepare to stop if necessary — usually while merging into traffic on another road — but needn't stop ..."

"move in order to make room for someone for something"

"to make room for"

I know for a fact some DEs dont fail people if they use common sense, but equally there are some who do.. whether you should do it on a part 3 is some thing else entirely.

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#29 13-05-09 08:38:24

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Pelican Crossings

Snaxmuppet to answer your question..... "common sense".. That same reg also says:

"Precedence of pedestrians over vehicles at Pelican crossings
     26. When the vehicular light signals at a Pelican crossing are showing the flashing amber signal, every pedestrian, if he is on the carriageway or a central reservation within the limits of the crossing (but not if he is on a central reservation which forms part of a system of staggered crossings) before any part of a vehicle has entered those limits, shall have precedence within those limits over that vehicle and the driver of the vehicle shall accord such precedence to any such pedestrian."

Taking in the whole thing it isnt black and white like people keep trying to prove.. The reg says "precednece" which has the same vagueness as "give way" when people are saying it means "stop".

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#30 13-05-09 09:31:58

Doc
Verified Member
Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

Hopefully, I can clear this one up for all of us now smile

smile


Rule 196 of HWC says...

... If the amber light is flashing and there are no pedestrians on the crossing you may proceed with caution.
Laws ZPPPCGD regs 23 & 26 and RTRA sect 25(5)

Now this MUST answer it once and for all mustn't it... that rule 196 clearly says we may proceed only when there are no peds on the crossing. It doesn't leave anything open to interpretation does it... the crossing must be clear.

It isn't what I believed up to know but reading that I have now changed my mind... the crossing must be clear before proceeding.

I personally pointed that out on another thread, that you were actively  involved in on february 27th 

Vanda has also highlighted the same on this thread only yesterday and it has always been in the highway code. Why do you think that it has took you until now to see the meaning as you now do?

Kevin and Aspyre... do you still say that you can proceed with someone on the crossing? If so please explain smile

That's it, focus on the non believers now   8-)

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#31 13-05-09 09:41:03

Doc
Verified Member
Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

and I too was of the same opinion as you before I read rule 196 carefully.

You answered it here Snax

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#32 13-05-09 09:42:47

Doc
Verified Member
Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

You got there in the end Snax and if you now believe yourself to be right then that is not a bad thing.

Incidentally, no apology was needed, the debates have always been healthy.

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#33 13-05-09 10:09:22

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

My interpretation of "Precedence of a pedestrian over a vehicle" means vehicle driver should not prevent the pedestrian from proceeding or interfer with the pedestrian, preventing them from continuing on their course.

"Precendence of a vehicle over a pedestrian" means a pedestrian shall not interfer with a vehicle preventing it from proceeding across the crossing. Pedestrians in London have been fined for walking in front of a car that was proceeding slowly across the crossing, forcing the driver to stop on the crossing. Their correct path should have been to cross behind the vehicle.

If a pedestrian were to fall back into the path of a vehicle, the clearly the driver has not exercised due care in affording the pedestrian precedence.

The rule regarding a pedestrian crossing from right to left in a controlled zone and the driver havign to give way is to clarify the pedestrians precedence over the vehicle. This makes a clear distinction between a pedestrian in the controlled area walking towards the vehicle and the pedestrian walking away from the vehicle. A driver has afforded precendece to a pedestrian that has passed left to right and has reached or passed a central refuge. This distinction would not need re-enforcing if precedence had the meaning of the crossing must be clear of pedestrians before a vehicle may proceed.

The ONLY grey area, is how much clearance between pedestrian and vehicle there is before the driver may proceed.

Tony has completely and utterly misinterpreted a legal definition and I think it is important that it is clarified.

Contravention of pedestrian crossing regulations is a strict liability offence;


Quote

A strict liability offence does not require proof of any knowledge or fault on the part of defendant

merely means the offender does not have to know or understand he has broken a law for the offence to committed.
In other words, ignorance of the law is not a defence.  It has NO OTHER MEANING.

IF you then collide with that person there is no argument or defence, you should not have proceeded whilst they were on any part of the crossing

I wholly disagree with that statement. I witnessed a teenager getting struck and receiving serious head injuries after being struck by a car. The woman driver was cautioned at the scene, but was not arrested before leaving the scene, as there was no evidence to suggest she had broken any law.

The boy had walked calmly from my right, almost reached the kerb on my left, turned and ran back the way he'd come and into the path of the woman driver. 12 witnesses all said the same thing to the police officers at the scene. My own statement was only verbal, I was not required to give a written statement despite being the key witness.



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#34 13-05-09 11:30:34

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

Hi Snax.
I'm possibly one of the few instructors, indeed people, that can quote each hwc reg number, and the relevent law relating to it. I'm anal like that. smile so yes, I have read the HWC.

Item 3 of  rule 196 is written to explain flashing amber.

However, do not take this to mean that the crossing MUST BE CLEAR before proceeding.

Rule 197 is included in the HWC as a means to explain precedence.
My interpretation is that the pedestrian is approaching  the path of your vehicle, so has precedence.
Would you agree that if a pedestrian was passing left to right and had reached a central refuge, you would proceed on a flashing amber in the scenario of rule 197?

If you would, and the law defines a crossing with a central refuge as to be treated as a single crossing, how can you balance the argument of the crossing must be clear of pedestrians before a driver proceeds under a flashing amber if you are wiling to proceed if a pedestrian has crossed your half of the carriageway but not yet reached the kerb on the opposite side of the carriageway?

Central refuges have no legal definitions applied to them (except as refered to in law at staggered crossings), wether they are situated within the confines of a crossing or at any location on the highway. They are merely a safe haven for pedestrians.

Even under a green light for traffic, a pedestrian has precedence over a vehicle if the pedestrian entered the crossing before the vehicle. HWC Rule 198, (ZPPPCR).

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#35 13-05-09 12:43:01

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Pelican Crossings

Snaxmuppet, earlier you quoted ZPPPCGD and I have provided a complete cut and paste from it and it doesnt actually support the interpreation from that one sentence in rule 196.

The sentence before the one you quote says...

"When the amber light is flashing, you MUST give way to any pedestrians on the crossing."

and that brings us the what "give way" means.. It also has MUST in red, so it is law, but the part you have chosen doesnt have that red part.

It isnt as clear cut as you think.. There is a real danger those who belieive they have more experience than others are stating these gray areas as facts when they are not.

All you have to do is "give way".. What matters is what "give way" means.

(I wish those who agree with this would say so and acknoeldge others who have similar opinions.... it seems like they are just arguing there points from an isolated position whereas others gang up to support there own poitions  smile )

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#36 13-05-09 12:45:17

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

Hi Snax,
I'm not prepared to argue this indefinitely, so this will be my last post on the subject.
If you accept that the law is the law, and you agree with my interpretation fo the law, then clearly that is not the issue.

The HWC is a code of practice. Nothing more, and nothing less than a general guidance booklet, it has never sort to define or explain every possible driving scenario, which would be impossible.

If the amber light is flashing and there are no pedestrians on the crossing, you may proceed with caution.

serves to encourage drivers to proceed under a flashing amber light, if the crossing is clear.
If it meant to explain the regulations to mean cannot proceed under a flashing amber light if the crossing was not clear it would state :-
"If the amber light is flashing and there are pedestrians still on the crossing, you MUST NOT proceed."

The wording of 196 was debated on both the last 2 revisions of the HWC and on both occasions the current wording was retained as the law DOES NOT mean "MUST NOT proceed unless the crossing is clear".

I believe the consultation  of the last HWC revision is still available on some websites, but I do not have the time today to seek it out for you, but you may have.


Let me be clear on what I teach and what I consider is best practice.

If the amber light is flashing, and by proceeding you will not endanger any pedestrian that is moving away from your vehicle but still within the confines of the crossing, you may proceed with caution.

If you are on a narrow road, then it may be prudent to wait until the pedestrian clears the crossing, provided by doing so you are not encouraging other pedestrians to enter the controlled zone.

I had ped-x on a part 3 and made it quite clear to the "pupil" what I do at crossings and what I expect him to do. I received no feedback regarding proceeding on amber.

I have checked my records, and have presented well over 100 candidates on B tests, and only 1 received a fault for crossings. I recall the test as i was in on it. The candidate waited at zebra crossing in queing traffic despite their being room (just) the other side of the crossing for the car.

There are numerous LC crossings on my local test routes, and no one that I have presented has ever been faulted for proceeding on a flashing amber, although examiners have commented to 1 or 2 of my candidates regarding borderline hesitation situations for waiting too long on flashing amber, both at the same crossing which is on a busy high street with heavy traffic and plenty of shoppers.

The examiners clearly take the view, that on this crossing, with this traffic volume, and with the number of pedestrians wishing to cross the road, it is best practice to discourage late crossers by proceeding when it is safe to do so, but whilst pedestrians are still present on the crossing but clear of our side of the road.

I would ask any instructor here and now, to keep an eye on all their test results and if any examiner fails a candidate on the basis of proceeding before a pedestrian completely cleared the crossing to get a copy of the test report so i may read the actual reason given for the failure.

I've never heard an examiner say he fails on the basis of a pedestrian not reaching the right hand kerb so am keen to see it in writing on a test report.

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#37 13-05-09 22:27:51

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

Fair enough Kevin... I consider myself well and truely educated!  smile

Thanks for taking the time to give so much detail and faced with such an explanation I can only accept your argument and reasoning.

I have swung from agreeing to disagreeing to agreeing as the discussion has progressed and I have to say that this discussion may feel a bit repetitive to some ADIs but I have found it very useful and I hope others have too.

Most wont find it useful, just a waste of precious time reading it, I think ill have a look at the VW forum instead.


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#38 13-05-09 22:37:41

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

Here's a quandry for you snax

Your waiting at pelican crossing, pedestrians crossing, flashing amber comes on but pedestrians have nearly crossed and you feel it is safe to proceed, do you proceed? (BTW there's a police traffic car behind you wink)


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#39 14-05-09 06:22:13

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

Snax muppet

Experienced ADI's are not going to read posts with such rubbish in it as this one and learn from it   roll


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#40 14-05-09 07:11:47

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

Hi Nigel.
Is the forum just about learning or is it also about sharing experiences, knowledge and wisdom.

You have much of all 3, but I've noticed lately you haven't been so involved in posting as you once were.

Perhaps your view on the topic itself, rather than the content of posts might be of benefit to the less experienced.

Would you say all crossings must be void of pedestrians before a driver may proceed when a flashing amber is showing?
I'm sure no one will call your reply rubbish. smile
Regards Kev.

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#41 14-05-09 07:37:08

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

tony adi wrote:

Here's a quandry for you snax

Your waiting at pelican crossing, pedestrians crossing, flashing amber comes on but pedestrians have nearly crossed and you feel it is safe to proceed, do you proceed? (BTW there's a police traffic car behind you wink)

OK Tony, if it is clearly safe to proceed then I would now proceed with caution.

BTW the fact that a police car was behind wouldn't make a jot of difference to what I would do... it that or any circumstance smile

So what you gonna say to the nice policeman when he pulls you over and says he didn't feel it was safe for you to proceed? It is now your opinion against the nice policemans opinion. Since non of the posters on here can agree, what if the nice policeman doesn't agree with you?


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#42 14-05-09 13:06:38

Doc
Verified Member
Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

Generally speaking tho' it simply would never be an issue. If I believe it is safe for me to proceed then it would also appear so to others too.

So what you're saying is, that if is APPARENT to you then it would be APPARENT to others? Bearing in mind that instructors, tutors and examiners are all split into two camps, what makes you so sure the police and the general driving public share your   views?   tongue

This also raises an interesting issue. What are the thoughts of those behind you?

a) I'm glad he didn't wait/instruct to wait until the crossing was clear
b) i can't believe what i just witnessed, that instructor has continued/instructed to go when the crossing was still in use
c) What is wrong with that instructor, he can surely be going as the pedestrian is almost off the crossing why isn't he going/instructing to go
d) That instructor is a decent instructor he is waiting/instructing to wait until the crossing is clear.

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#43 14-05-09 13:21:54

Doc
Verified Member
Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
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Re: Pelican Crossings

So as an ADI (with all the knowledge that comes with the title) who has presented a pupil to test be expected to understand why a pupil has failed and that it is/was not for "no apparent" reason

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#44 14-05-09 13:23:21

Doc
Verified Member
Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

... or are you just being a troll?

Now that is being totally disrespectful and is not called for.

PS: having thought about this for a moment i find it hard to believe that someone who would appear to have average/above average intelligence would resort to making an insult so immature in content, simply because they don't like or understand what is written. You hold strong views and put them across aggressively but still, no one insults you. Are you sure your personality is suited to this profession?

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#45 14-05-09 16:08:39

Doc
Verified Member
Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

My first post in this thread was in response to your query

Your query

how do I get to know about my local SE's likes dislikes and quirks without spending years having pups fail for no apparent reason?

Which was

Set up a meeting with your DTAM and go armed with specific questions. Nobody fails for no apparent reason.

I’m sure you must agree that I was being helpful with my advice as well as being clear that no one fails for no apparent reason. Nothing insulting or remotely like having a go there. Yet in your response you come across quite sharply

I think you mean doc that nobody fails for NO reason... they certainly do fail for no APPARENT reason... in other words... yes, they failed but the reason isn't obvious. Clearly the examiner failed them for good reason but we just might not immediately see why.

I think my response to that was straight to the point, with an explanation and further advice. None of which can be construed as aggressive, unfriendly or having a go.

You don't have to think for me snax, i know what i meant and luchell elaborated on the point. If you leave the test centre baffled each time your pupils fail then the problem lies with you not understanding what happened. That may be due to not sitting in on the de-briefs and going on the pupil's version or your own training was sub-standard. Knowing the training you will be receiving, i am confident that you will understand each and every fail your pupil's experience (providing you are a good student and take your training in).What seems to be the constant outcome in all the threads relating to this topic is that both instructors and examiners have interpreted this rule in two different ways. Give-way or allow to cross. It makes perfect sense to speak with your local examiners and go by their interpretation as that's what really matters to you and your own pupils.

Your next reply seems to be defiant as though I’ve chastised you in some way.

I am certainly not thinking for you doc... just myself thank you smile

My next post was to offer a reason, which I believed you were looking for

However, why are so many of yo so certain that the crossing must be clear? You must have a reason?

Does the wording under the picture for rule 196 of the HC  "Allow pedestrians to cross when the amber light is flashing" fall into this category.

I continued to add

How you interprete "to cross" will obviously play a significant part in your interpretation of the rule.

You are obviously of the belief that it is not necessary to allow pedestrians to completely cross and that is fine, especially if your local examiners go along with the same understanding. This debate has been going on for as long as the forum has been on air and one thing that is abundantly clear is that neither side of the arguement can change the viewpoints of the other. We can and should agree that each viewpoint is as valid as each other and dependant on circumstance and local examiner ruling.

Again, nothing but a reason and advice, given in good spirit.

Your next post was

Hopefully, I can clear this one up for all of us now smile

Rule 196 of HWC says...

... If the amber light is flashing and there are no pedestrians on the crossing you may proceed with caution.
Laws ZPPPCGD regs 23 & 26 and RTRA sect 25(5)

Now this MUST answer it once and for all mustn't it... that rule 196 clearly says we may proceed only when there are no peds on the crossing. It doesn't leave anything open to interpretation does it... the crossing must be clear.

It isn't what I believed up to know but reading that I have now changed my mind... the crossing must be clear before proceeding.

Kevin and Aspyre... do you still say that you can proceed with someone on the crossing? If so please explain smile

My response was

SnaxMuppet wrote:

Hopefully, I can clear this one up for all of us now smile

smile


Rule 196 of HWC says...

... If the amber light is flashing and there are no pedestrians on the crossing you may proceed with caution.
Laws ZPPPCGD regs 23 & 26 and RTRA sect 25(5)

Now this MUST answer it once and for all mustn't it... that rule 196 clearly says we may proceed only when there are no peds on the crossing. It doesn't leave anything open to interpretation does it... the crossing must be clear.

It isn't what I believed up to know but reading that I have now changed my mind... the crossing must be clear before proceeding.

I personally pointed that out on another thread, that you were actively  involved in on february 27th 

Vanda has also highlighted the same on this thread only yesterday and it has always been in the highway code. Why do you think that it has took you until now to see the meaning as you now do?

Kevin and Aspyre... do you still say that you can proceed with someone on the crossing? If so please explain smile

That's it, focus on the non believers now   8-)

Nothing to suggest having a go here either, with a touch of humour added.

In your response to that you offered an apology, to which my response was

You got there in the end Snax and if you now believe yourself to be right then that is not a bad thing.

Incidentally, no apology was needed, the debates have always been healthy.

My next post was in response to something you said, which I thought was relevant to a previous post regarding what was apparent to one person may not be apparent to another. The use of strike throughs was followed by the tongue in cheek symbol which was intended to convey the humour of my use of them.

SnaxMuppet wrote:

Generally speaking tho' it simply would never be an issue. If I believe it is safe for me to proceed then it would also appear so to others too.

So what you're saying is, that if is APPARENT to you then it would be APPARENT to others? Bearing in mind that instructors, tutors and examiners are all split into two camps, what makes you so sure the police and the general driving public share your   views?   tongue

This also raises an interesting issue. What are the thoughts of those behind you?

a) I'm glad he didn't wait/instruct to wait until the crossing was clear
b) i can't believe what i just witnessed, that instructor has continued/instructed to go when the crossing was still in use
c) What is wrong with that instructor, he can surely be going as the pedestrian is almost off the crossing why isn't he going/instructing to go
d) That instructor is a decent instructor he is waiting/instructing to wait until the crossing is clear.

My post ended with a thought provoking question. Nothing untowards intended but something to keep your mind working on the topic.

You obviously didn’t quite get the gist of what I was saying, which is ok. I can’t expect everyone to get me. To end it as you did though was uncalled for and I feel you have lowered yourself to a level that is best avoided in this forum and profession.

... or are you just being a troll?

You offered no apology and in this instance I think you should have. Now in your last post you are practically demanding an explanation and accusing me of  behaviour that is clearly not in evidence when reading through this thread.

The biscuit is well and truly yours snax, enjoy.

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#46 14-05-09 19:32:52

Doc
Verified Member
Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

You may not have read my post snax but that is only arrogance on your part and as noted in a previous post, not reading things properly led to your switch in belief. Your arrogance even extends to the belief that you speak for all by saying that nobody will want to read my post. Everyone who has shown an interest in this thread will read every word and draw their own conclusions and i wouldn't expect them all to share your views. I am not upset at your behaviour in the slightest as it can only reflect on you. One thing i know is that we are all something in someones eyes.

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#47 14-05-09 19:49:26

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

If theres any subject that usually results in animosity between at least 2 members it's got to be Ped-X's. Almost any thread on the topic ends up with some form of personal comments rather than topical comments.

Smile sweetly at the pc, agree to disagree, appreciate that some comments may be misunderstood, but lets not allow it to get personal.

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#48 14-05-09 20:01:24

The Saint
Verified Member
From: Languedoc
Registered: 09-07-07
Posts: 370

Re: Pelican Crossings

This thread appears to be going exactly the same way as the last one on this topic...

And for that reason it's locked........


Did you think you didn't have to choose it?
That I alone could win or lose it?
In all the places we were hiding love
What was it we were thinking of?

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