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#1 11-05-09 07:47:35

walsh
Verified Member
Registered: 29-02-08
Posts: 241

Pelican Crossings

Hi guy's hope this doesn't offend anyone.

Read the locked thread that started off with some guy who failed his part 3. This then turned into a heated discussion about should you continue or not if someone was on a flashing amber.

I did this on my part 3 (2nd and final attempt). SE was going to go across on a flashing amber I stopped him and in debrief he didn't even mention it.

Not looking to cause and arguments, just thought it might help.

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11-05-09 07:47:35

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Re: Pelican Crossings



#2 11-05-09 19:06:45

mrbrightside
Verified Member
From: Doncaster, South Yorkshire
Registered: 07-05-07
Posts: 189

Re: Pelican Crossings

I haven't read the other discussion.

Why would you stop for flashing amber? You should continue if the crossing is clear of pedestrians and it is safe to proceed.

Stopping on flashing amber when it is clear would be failing to make progress and also failing to understand traffic signals.


Part 1: Passed (11/9/07) 96/100 & 68/75
Part 2: Passed (19/10/07) 3 Minors
Part 3: (2nd) Passed (27/11/08) 4/4
Check Test: Grade 5 (16/03/11)

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#3 11-05-09 19:50:11

walsh
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Registered: 29-02-08
Posts: 241

Re: Pelican Crossings

Examiner tried to go before the ped had finished crossing and I stopped him.

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#4 11-05-09 20:59:59

mrbrightside
Verified Member
From: Doncaster, South Yorkshire
Registered: 07-05-07
Posts: 189

Re: Pelican Crossings

Walsh: That obviously makes sense

SnaxMuppett: I have to disagree. If a pedestrian is anywhere on the crossing then I would expect my student to be off the gas (therefore slowing down) and covering the brake. If the timing works out, by the time the ped has crossed completely (either way) then they could re-apply gas and continue.

Any pedestrian on a crossing has priority, and you should not continue until the crossing is completely clear.


Part 1: Passed (11/9/07) 96/100 & 68/75
Part 2: Passed (19/10/07) 3 Minors
Part 3: (2nd) Passed (27/11/08) 4/4
Check Test: Grade 5 (16/03/11)

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#5 11-05-09 21:10:22

hoylake
Verified Member
From: Heysham
Registered: 21-09-07
Posts: 1,435
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Re: Pelican Crossings

I agree with mrB & Walsh, do not proceed until crossing completely clear.


http://www.sophiesdrivinglancaster.co.uk
Adi & Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Gold

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#6 11-05-09 21:56:01

smithwold
Verified Member
From: Berkshire
Registered: 18-08-07
Posts: 716
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Re: Pelican Crossings

Also agree as above.

What if that pedestrian suddenly decided that they had missed or forgot something, turns round to cross back again before clearing the crossing in the knowledge that they have priority?  Even if they continue to cross after you have a green light, they still have priority.

I've had it happen typically while using it as an argument for not proceeding until the crossing is completely clear. Point proven.

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#7 11-05-09 23:55:14

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

ZPPCR is the relevent legislation.

No where in it does it require the crossing to be completely free of pedestrians before a vehicle may proceed.

Basic gist is that if a pedestrian enters the crossing before a vehicle than the pedestrian shall have "precedence" over the vehicle.
A driver should give way to the pedestrian.
If a vehicle enters the crossing area before a pedestrian, then that vehicle shall have precedence.

succumbing  precedence or Give way does not mean may not proceed until the crossing is clear.

Indeed, some crossings in London would never be clear of pedestrians if vehicles did not begin to proceed whilst pedestrians have crossed the path of the vehicle but not reached the other kerb.

It is not uncommon for tests to be failed on the basis of the candidate failing to proceed early enough to deter other pedestrians from begining to cross whilst a pedestrian is still on the crossing but clear of the vehicle.

Question.
A 97 yr old man has taken 10 minutes to shuffle on his zimmer frame from the keb on your left to a position that is clear of the front of your vehicle. In that 10 mins 30 vehicles are now waiting behind you.

Will you wait another 5 mins until that pedestrian reaches the other kerb, even though the crossing remains clear in front of your vehicle?
If you are willing to wait the other 5 mins, do you really think that the courior in the van behind you will be willing to wait too? Or would he nip around you and try to make progress.....endangering the old gent still crossing.

What result would you expect an examiner to record if you spent 5 - 10 mins at a crossing during the test due to you waiting for the crossing to be totally clear of pedestrians?

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#8 12-05-09 06:42:40

hoylake
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From: Heysham
Registered: 21-09-07
Posts: 1,435
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

I better tell that to the DE who faulted a client for proceeding before a crossing was clear on both sides.


http://www.sophiesdrivinglancaster.co.uk
Adi & Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Gold

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#9 12-05-09 08:17:18

Doc
Verified Member
Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

Set up a meeting with your DTAM and go armed with specific questions. Nobody fails for no apparent reason.

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#10 12-05-09 10:37:59

Luchell
Verified Member
From: Salisbury
Registered: 12-06-07
Posts: 1,661

Re: Pelican Crossings

Sorry Snax, personally I disagree. Out of well over 150 tests I've put in I have never had a pupil fail for as you put it 'No apparent reason' as in the reason isn't obvious  :?  I always attend the debrief and sit in on those i can and still I 've not had a pupil fail for a reason i haven't found plainly obvious. I'm sure there are some instructors who feel that way but me personally , no.

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#11 12-05-09 12:37:51

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,596

Re: Pelican Crossings

This is the thread walsh was referring to in his opening post :  http://www.drivertrainingtoday.co.uk/fo … 659.0.html

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#12 12-05-09 13:36:24

Doc
Verified Member
Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

You don't have to think for me snax, i know what i meant and luchell elaborated on the point. If you leave the test centre baffled each time your pupils fail then the problem lies with you not understanding what happened. That may be due to not sitting in on the de-briefs and going on the pupil's version or your own training was sub-standard. Knowing the training you will be receiving, i am confident that you will understand each and every fail your pupil's experience (providing you are a good student and take your training in).What seems to be the constant outcome in all the threads relating to this topic is that both instructors and examiners have interpreted this rule in two different ways. Give-way or allow to cross. It makes perfect sense to speak with your local examiners and go by their interpretation as that's what really matters to you and your own pupils.

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#13 12-05-09 13:47:34

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,596

Re: Pelican Crossings

I had mixed opinions of this on the previous thread, but then I saw a post from Tony adi, with this quoted in it, as from the Highway Code :

Pelican crossings. These are signal-controlled crossings where flashing amber follows the red ‘Stop’ light. You MUST stop when the red light shows. When the amber light is flashing, you MUST give way to any pedestrians on the crossing. If the amber light is flashing and there are no pedestrians on the crossing, you may proceed with caution.

This thread is about pelican crossings, so I read it to mean that when the amber light is flashing, you MUST give way to any peds ON THE CROSSING, and if no peds on the crossing, you may proceed with caution.

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#14 12-05-09 18:46:23

Trumper
Verified Member
From: South west
Registered: 11-07-05
Posts: 251

Re: Pelican Crossings

think their was a test case on this in 1956. The pedestrian has precedence over traffic. If he is well out of the way and no chance him falling back into your path then you can proceed.


O.R.D.I.T. Dip D.I
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A.D.I  Car manual
Cardington A , D.I.A Special test, R.O.S.P.A , I.A.M

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#15 12-05-09 20:16:11

mrbrightside
Verified Member
From: Doncaster, South Yorkshire
Registered: 07-05-07
Posts: 189

Re: Pelican Crossings

I can't understand why this becomes such an issue! Vand just cleared it up...... you MUST give way to any peds ON THE CROSSING. (It doesn't say on your side of the crossing, it says ON THE CROSSING)

Just as a further point- there is no need to proceed once your side is clear as it will take a matter of seconds for the other side of the crossing to be clear anyway as long as the ped goes straight across.

When there are extreme cases, as in the 90-odd year old man that somebody brought up earlier then it is a matter of discretion. But in terms of teaching, you should teach your students to give way to any peds on any point of the crossing.


Part 1: Passed (11/9/07) 96/100 & 68/75
Part 2: Passed (19/10/07) 3 Minors
Part 3: (2nd) Passed (27/11/08) 4/4
Check Test: Grade 5 (16/03/11)

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#16 12-05-09 20:21:48

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Pelican Crossings

Vanda hasnt cleared it up..... it is just her opinion.

Vanda as was pointed out in the last thread "giving way" to pedestrians is not the same as "waiting stock still with the handbrake on until they are absolutely off the crossing".

You can give way by slowing down in many situations and it is not written that a driver must stop dead and put the handbrake on.

You have "given way" if your car and the pedestrian are not reasonably likely to have to worry about each other and the scenario snaxmuppet has given is a good example of such a situation.. Of course it depends on the actual crossing and circum stances but you do not automaticly have to stop and wait until the pedestrian has stepped on to a pavement some times 10 meters away from you.

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#17 12-05-09 20:24:51

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,596

Re: Pelican Crossings

Oh I love these threads........they are so open to interpretation  wink

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#18 12-05-09 20:53:15

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Pelican Crossings

like that one?? wink

it looked like you were saying that copied section in red explained it all when it doesnt and mrbrightside was saying the same.. the real crux of the matter is what "give way" means and the official reg doesnt elucidate on that.

When you "give way" at a t-junction do you stop and put the h/b on evry time?? Do you wait until any cars are completely past you until you start moving or do you anticipate safely to move into any gaps??

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#19 12-05-09 21:00:12

Lily-Anne
Verified Member
From: Northampton
Registered: 21-05-07
Posts: 606
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

I have found it not to be uncommon for a test to fail while moving on at the crossing if it is occupied.  Were you sitting in on the test or was this the view from the pupil after?

Man/woman with zimmer unlikely to turn around and run back over crossing because he forgot something.

Child/young person - yes.

LA


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#20 12-05-09 21:04:03

evanadi
Guest

Re: Pelican Crossings

''My next question is a little off topic but I'll ask it anyway... how do I get to know about my local SE's likes dislikes and quirks without spending years having pups fail for no apparent reason?''

Well you could wait for Christmas and ask him over to yours for a drink, get him drunk and get him to divulge his inner most secrets. You could join the same golf club as he does (if he is a member) and get involved in his circle.

Or you could just teach all your pupils to a standard where they don't fail their tests, which most of the rest of us try to do.

With regards to the likes and dislikes of examiners, I would hire a very large marquee if you embark on my first suggestion, because you will have to invite every examiner that is likely to test your pupils.

The bottom line is pupils will always see things a different way to what really happens when they fail. Interestingly the examiners they think are mean ###### because they have failed them, are thought of by others who they have passed as great people.

If a pupil fails on a test its usually because they have done something daft, not because the examiner is some sort of ''hooded claw'' with a vendetta against them. Ev wink

#21 12-05-09 21:43:55

mrbrightside
Verified Member
From: Doncaster, South Yorkshire
Registered: 07-05-07
Posts: 189

Re: Pelican Crossings

I don't think I said anywhere in my posts that I would stop still with hbrake on.

Aspyre: I agree that you don;t always need to stop dead, and I apologise if I'd not made it clear-

What I've said is that I wouldn't pass the crossing while a pedestrian was already on it. Of course the sensible thing (and i think i said this on my 1st post) would be to come off the gas (thus slowing down a bit) so hopefully by the time I reached the crossing, the peds would be clear and I would be able to continue without ever having to stop dead. But I stand by the fact that if by the time you reach the crossing, there is a ped still on it, then you should wait. There may well be some exceptions depending on circumstances. But we could be here all night bringing up all kinds of extreme or unusual circumstances, lets base teaching on what the highway code says, and how the majority of situations should be handled. Then make them aware there can be exceptions.


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#22 12-05-09 22:08:23

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

Ok this is not an extreme or rare event.
A pedestrian has crossed left to right and you emerge from the junction just before the crossing.
The pedestrian is 2 steps away from the right kerb.
It's not rare because every pedestrian will at some point be 2 steps from the kerb.
Many crossings are near junctions.

Would you stop at the crossing, or would you proceed.

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#23 12-05-09 22:17:10

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Pelican Crossings

mrbrightside i didnt say you did say you'd put the h/b on  smile the point i was making is that the regulation wording about giving way does not clarify the issue being discussed here.

the issue is over the definition of "giving way" and quite a few people seem to assume it means wait until the pedestrian isnt even casting a shadow on the crossing.... i know no one said that i'm joking.... when it doersnt mean that at all.

it depends on the actual crossing but like some one said last page in London on some big crossings youd be sitting there all day causing huge tailbacks if you kept waiting until the crossing was physically empty.. its the same where i am on some crossings too.... one especialy springs to mind in a student area where the bias is heavily in favor of the Pelican and it switches to red a few seconds after pressing every time.. During the day huge tailbacks build up so you have to use common sense or get white vans overtaking.

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#24 12-05-09 23:14:12

Doc
Verified Member
Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
Website

Re: Pelican Crossings

In this case I do not see any evidence that the crossing must be completely clear. I see that we must give way or give priority to peds on the crossong and that is all. However, why are so many of yo so certain that the crossing must be clear? You must have a reason?

Does the wording under the picture for rule 196 of the HC  "Allow pedestrians to cross when the amber light is flashing" fall into this category.

How you interprete "to cross" will obviously play a significant part in your interpretation of the rule.

You are obviously of the belief that it is not necessary to allow pedestrians to completely cross and that is fine, especially if your local examiners go along with the same understanding. This debate has been going on for as long as the forum has been on air and one thing that is abundantly clear is that neither side of the arguement can change the viewpoints of the other. We can and should agree that each viewpoint is as valid as each other and dependant on circumstance and local examiner ruling.

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#25 12-05-09 23:35:39

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Pelican Crossings

of course youd not want to take just the wording under the pic out of context.. the whole thing says:

"When the amber light is flashing, you MUST give way to any pedestrians on the crossing. If the amber light is flashing and there are no pedestrians on the crossing, you may proceed with caution."

The crux of this is the meaning of "give way" and not just the partial or abbreviated wording under the illustration.. It would be easy to say "do not (or you MUST NOT) proceed until the crossing is clear" but it doesn't.

Essential skills says you must give way to peds on crossing but if its clear  you can go on.. Its all interpreation.

It really does seem to be a personal thing with DEs.. I've never had anyone faulted for a crossing in any way but others have had them failed.. It also depends on the actual circumstances.... not every pupil who negotiates a Pelican is doing it the same way or under the same circumstances smile

I agree it is best to agree to disagree.

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