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#76 03-05-09 14:08:21

yasmin
Verified Member
Registered: 02-06-07
Posts: 562

Re: ADI Gradings

Angleson; your last sentance reminds me very much of a school music teacher whose position I took over whilst he was on secondment trying to gain yet another qualification to add to his very long list. I was fresh out of college and very green to say the least, working in a socially deprived area of Leeds (Armley) where a large chunk of youngsters 'graduated' to the infamous prison! It was one of the most challenging, yet fulfilling, years of my teaching career but the other, well qualified teacher was despised by the children. They loved the music lessons,many went on to consider performing as a career and many still stop to chat to me some 30 years on. Was I a brilliant teacher? No. I was enthusiastic, understanding, patient and desperate to bring my subject to life. I don't have a degree or an armful of qualifications but I make up for it with a passion for my subject. I hope that same passion is evident in my instructing even though I am a lowly Grade 4.

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03-05-09 14:08:21

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Re: ADI Gradings



#77 03-05-09 15:32:37

DampDog
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire.
Registered: 04-02-06
Posts: 1,538

Re: ADI Gradings

Do you not think this industry is just a bizarre industry anyway. It's just beyond me that the people who do the testing "The DSA" don't do the training. There loads of threads debating variations in training from one provider or another, should not all training be derived from DSA trainers, to make us all that bit leveller to begin with.

Anyone who has worked hard enough to qualify as an ADI damn well deserves it, it's no small undertaking. Now as for the grading system, it may not the best way to do it, I'm certainly not qualified to say. But it is the only avenue open too us at the moment and as level as the playing field can be for all of us. What it offers us is a tool or measure, that we can use to give us some indication that we're improving or trying too. And I'm sure, pretty much everyone wants to get better at what they do, it's human nature.

When any of us meet other ADI's do we wonder what grade is he/she is? does it ever even pop into you head? it never comes up in conversation, never even gets a thought to be honest. The green badge in their windscreen, says they gone through all the trials and tribulations that go with the job.

Thankfully talk about grades stays within these forums, that is of course until your next CT is due and you think "Oh bu gger!" As has been put very well here, there are as other things that we can measure judge ourselves by, however for now the CT is the only one they give you a piece of paper telling you how you did. I'm waiting for "Customer feedback" to be included as a measure that would be fun.

I think because we're pasionate about what we do, occasionally we forget we're all on the same side when the discussion gets going. I for one joined the forum seeking help, and in turn try to offer it back in return now I've learned a bit... smile




ADI (car)
1st CT (5)

I used to be a compleat idiot, until some bits fell off...

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#78 03-05-09 16:38:44

angleson
Verified Member
Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: ADI Gradings

I agree, DampDog.

I honestly don't know if the check-test format (and the P3) is necessarily wrong. The idea is ok I suppose. My problem is that the DSA / DfT may have created a good framework for measuring competency for one aspect of the job alone, and have disregarded all other aspects. They have even pinpointed it to core competencies of identifying, analysing and remedying faults. My other concern is as previously stated in that I don't think they are qualified to interpret the results in all cases.

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#79 03-05-09 21:51:53

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: ADI Gradings

yes i knew some one who was aiming for a 6 on her first CT and ended up with an E.. 2 months later she got a 5.

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#80 04-05-09 08:53:09

angleson
Verified Member
Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: ADI Gradings

............. you could get a 5 one day with one examiner who likes what you do and a 4 the next with someone who doesn't, it is this lack of consistency where it goes wrong................

As it is just one person who does the evaluation this is bound to happen. The DSA will say however that, as each examiner undergoes strict training and is regularly monitored on the job, consistency is achieved.

Unfortunately, we're all human, and we all see the world through our own eyes and form opinions based on our own personal experiences.

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#81 04-05-09 09:52:42

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: ADI Gradings

yes i knew some one who was aiming for a 6 on her first CT and ended up with an E.. 2 months later she got a 5.

As much as I accept that SE's will have small variations in what they prefer to see, I cannot for the life of me see how one SE would mark a performance a grade 6, and another mark the same performance as substandard, (E or below a 4).

I am willing to accept an instructor at a level that some of us may consider a grade 5 and 3 different examiners viewing that same performance as a 4,5 or a 6, but certainly not a 3 or below.

I appreciate you said she was aiming for a 6, but got an E, the issue here is wether she beleived she performed good enough for a 6 or not. If she did, then there was a misjudgement on her part.

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#82 04-05-09 09:55:33

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: ADI Gradings

The DSA must be reading this and splitting their sides  big_smile big_smile

Thank heavens for the voice of reason in the previous post, this is the type of rubbish heard every day in test centre tattle.


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#83 04-05-09 09:58:15

jonnmedds
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 154

Re: ADI Gradings

Maybe they're using the same quotas for the ct that they use for the driving test  :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

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#84 04-05-09 10:08:51

angleson
Verified Member
Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: ADI Gradings

The DSA must be reading this and splitting their sides  big_smile big_smile

Thank heavens for the voice of reason in the previous post, this is the type of rubbish heard every day in test centre tattle.

Can I disagree with you Hector or is your firm, brash view the only one to be believed?

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#85 04-05-09 10:15:31

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: ADI Gradings

Angleson disagree all you like!  big_smile wink

Im going for CT on thursday and hoping I get lucky and have the right examiner who knows what they are doing smile Never met one yet that doesnt!




EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#86 04-05-09 10:21:13

angleson
Verified Member
Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: ADI Gradings

Then that's your experience - not mine.

Best of luck, anyway! (or if not luck whatever term you use lol)

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#87 04-05-09 10:29:14

angleson
Verified Member
Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: ADI Gradings

Angleson disagree all you like!  big_smile wink

Im going for CT on thursday and hoping I get lucky and have the right examiner who knows what they are doing smile Never met one yet that doesnt!

As I live in Wales, oddly enough 80% of my pupils are Welsh speakers.

Do you think the DSA can provide a Welsh SEADI or do you think I should conduct the C/T lesson in English?

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#88 04-05-09 10:45:21

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: ADI Gradings

I appreciate you said she was aiming for a 6, but got an E, the issue here is wether she beleived she performed good enough for a 6 or not. If she did, then there was a misjudgement on her part.

Yes but the point i'm making from this factual example (not tattle as some would like to belieive) is that without any extra trainng at all in the space of two months one adi was graded E and 5.. it is one hell of a range and it would be naive of any one to suggest the same wide range isnt possible with a 6..

indeed that report shows statisticly that exactly what i have cited here is possible across the entire spectrum.... that the best pdis (lets say E level) are over lapping with the poorest grade 6s.

it just means no one can say say a specific grade 6 is better than a specific grade 5/4 and it must be offensive to grade 5/4s to keep hearing it.

even leaving aside all the attempts to prove one is better than the other or not as the case may be dont you think grade 4s keep hearing grade 6s suggest... or state... they are rubbish is a bit impolite?? Not all grade 6s of course.... the overlap isn't just with pass rates.

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#89 04-05-09 10:46:49

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: ADI Gradings

Definitely Welsh! I had one guy do his in polish, he was brilliant, examiner gave him a 1, cause he didnt understand a word  big_smile


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#90 04-05-09 10:53:39

angleson
Verified Member
Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: ADI Gradings

Definitely Welsh! I had one guy do his in polish, he was brilliant, examiner gave him a 1, cause he didnt understand a word  big_smile

My two check-tests have been conducted by English speakers although I had no alternative but do the lesson in Welsh. I had even given them advance warning that I only had Welsh speakers that I could use for the C/T!

Because they didn't understand, do you think that it may have affected my grade, like your Polish friend?

PS I assume your Polish friend was in Poland at the time or does Polish now have equal parity with English in England?! tongue

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#91 04-05-09 12:31:55

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: ADI Gradings

I've learnt something new today.
I didnt realise so many Welsh don't speak or understand English.
Of course I know many prefer to speak welsh, but didn't realise so many couldn't understand English.
Thanks to Angleson for the enlightenment, smile

hi Aspyre,
I do appreciate your viewpoint, indeed I went from a 2/4 part 3 result to almost gaining a 6/6 in a couple of months.

However, I also appreciate the massive differences in the quality of my performance on both tests.
It was plain to me at the time.

OK, it could be argued that (and I think this is your point) that the same instructor can perform differently on 2 seperate occasions, so a grade 2 performance on 1 lesson/checktest could be followed by a grade 6 on a subsequent test. Whichever grade is awarded (4-6), then that instructor keeps that grade, irrespective of his day to day lesson standard.

But, so long as the instructor acheives regular pass standards on checktests, he at least is demonstrating an ability to teach at an acceptable level, at least once every 2-4 years.

I personally cannot see how an instructors ability can bechecked other than through checktesting.

Ok, if we think that an instructor is regulary teaching at a similar standard, perhaps checktests should be more frequent, but this would be expensive and time consuming for the instructor and the DSA.

If an instructor cannot pull out an acceptable level on their checktest, knowing how important it is to their livelyhood, then exactly what standard of tuition are they providing on their regular lessons?

I've spoken to many instructors regarding their check tests, and many do feel extra pressure whilst being observed on a lesson (I'm one of them), however, even for these people, a grade 4 really should be a comfortable acheivement, if they are truly aiming for a grade 6, and have the skills to actually acheive a grade 6 on normal lessons.

The reality is, far too many scrape through (yes, scrape through) part 3, and then do nothing to raise their game for their regular lessons or check test.

Even someone that acheives a 5/6 on part 3 may have scraped through, having been lucky and got a PST where they are particulary strong on the subjects being covered. That does not mean they are a grade 5 or 6 standard instructor.

If they cannot use the core comps on EVERY aspect of driving and driver tuition, their lesson standards and check test results will swing from below standard to a high standard, depending on the subject being covered.

As i said earlier, I readily accept that the same instructor may receive different grades for different subjects covered on different check tests, and the grade awarded for THAT checktest, is no indication of consistancy of standard, but is an indication of a standard that the instructor HAS demonstrated at least once, on the check test.

I also accept that different examiners may have slightly different marking standards, but IMHO, they are usually close enough to be irrelevent to the outcome of a check test as far as passing or failing.

Even if there were big inconsistancies between examiners, there is a system in place that does check consistancies, (apart from examiners regular checktests, by senior examiners or TC Managers), and that is whenever an instructor fails to reach the desired standard, a subsequent check test is carried out with a higher graded examiner.

That means, that if 10 instructors fail their check test with 10 different examiners, all 10 can expect a checktest carried out by the same senior examiner, who presumably marks consistantly with himself.

Fail that check test and again another check test with the Master SE, who again presumably will be consistant with his own assesments.

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#92 04-05-09 14:22:19

angleson
Verified Member
Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: ADI Gradings

I've learnt something new today.
I didnt realise so many Welsh don't speak or understand English.
Of course I know many prefer to speak welsh, but didn't realise so many couldn't understand English.
Thanks to Angleson for the enlightenment, smile

Not sure if this is sarcasm or do you genuinely not understand.

As we live in Wales, most of my learners exercise their right to be taught in their native language. Who said anything about the leaners not understanding English? It's the SEADIs who don't understand Welsh. Again, as we live in Wales, I as a Welsh speaker, have a right to be check-tested in Welsh - the language has parity with English for public organisations such as the DfT/DSA. (The Welah Language Act 1993)

I can teach in English for my English customers and they will find as it is their first language that it is easier to absorb information in that language. Same applies for the Welsh customers, Kevin. Both they and I would feel like right plonkers if we spoke English to each other, especially under the check-test conditions. I would have taught them in Welsh for weeks and then I change to English for the check-test? You must be joking! Now that is a recipe for disaster!

In any case, why would we need to understand English in a Welsh check-test? neutral

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#93 04-05-09 14:24:15

Luchell
Verified Member
From: Salisbury
Registered: 12-06-07
Posts: 1,661

Re: ADI Gradings

It's not sarcasm, I can tell  lol  roll

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#94 04-05-09 14:31:24

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: ADI Gradings

I wasn't being sarcastic at all. I wasn't aware, is all.

I'm sorry to read you feel speaking English makes Welsh people feel like plonkers thou.

As an aside, many of the Asian instructors near me teach in various asian languages, although they are check tested in English.

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#95 04-05-09 14:51:01

angleson
Verified Member
Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: ADI Gradings

I understand that you don't understand!! You have to be born Welsh to understand the oppressive influence of the English language over here and I didn't really want to bring that sort of thing into the discussion.

Suffice to say the Welsh Language Society have worked hard for many years to enable Welsh to be given the same rights as English IN WALES! Can you believe it? We had to campaign for the right to use our own language in business dealings and so forth with public organisations and that includes the DSA.

By the way it's not the act of speaking English that makes us feel like plonkers and I'm not sure why you're apologising. It's the fact that we speak in a language to each other that's not our mother language. We just feel a bit daft, wouldn't you if you spoke to someone you know to be English, but the etiquette states that you must speak..... French? When there are other language speakers about then we naturally turn to English. It's quite handy like that! tongue

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#96 04-05-09 14:52:41

angleson
Verified Member
Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: ADI Gradings

As an aside, many of the Asian instructors near me teach in various asian languages, although they are check tested in English.

Not the same thing, Kevin. We live in Wales and ask to speak Welsh.

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#97 04-05-09 15:25:48

jonnmedds
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 154

Re: ADI Gradings

Kevin Beecham ADI wrote:

As an aside, many of the Asian instructors near me teach in various asian languages, although they are check tested in English.

Not the same thing, Kevin. We live in Wales and ask to speak Welsh.

Angelson, have you tried asking DSA if they can provide you with a Welsh speaking examiner for your ct.

Jon

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#98 04-05-09 16:34:15

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: ADI Gradings

I'm sorry to read you feel speaking English makes Welsh people feel like plonkers thou.

Now thats intresting when you look at that thread with evryone steadfastly saying there not racist and yet complaing about having translators for non-english speakers.. they must mean a certain kind of non-english speaker (I don't mean you kevin its just that with you saying this it brings home how a lot of other people think).

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#99 04-05-09 17:25:50

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: ADI Gradings

Angleson

Just to clarify, are you saying your were not happy with CT results, when conducted in Welsh, because the examiner did not understand the Welsh language? If the examiner didnt understand, how on earth could the CT be marked. And why go ahead with it?

Or did it in English because you had to more likely?

Hector


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#100 04-05-09 18:41:10

angleson
Verified Member
Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: ADI Gradings

angleson wrote:
Kevin Beecham ADI wrote:

As an aside, many of the Asian instructors near me teach in various asian languages, although they are check tested in English.

Not the same thing, Kevin. We live in Wales and ask to speak Welsh.

Angelson, have you tried asking DSA if they can provide you with a Welsh speaking examiner for your ct.

Jon

Yes (I did mention that in a previous post)

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