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#1 25-02-09 14:21:59

paulcook
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From: Edinburgh
Registered: 13-05-08
Posts: 130
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Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Well, after passing part 1 and 2 with no problems, AND being on a pink for 5 months, I failed my first attempt at Part 3 (got a 3/3).   Was totally shocked.  I've not felt this bad since being dumped by my girlfriend when I was a young 18 year old. 


PHASE 1, CROSSROADS

Gave a confident briefing and off we go.  He goes straight into the MSM routine for leaving the carpark, but puts signal on a fraction of a second before mirrors.  I didn't notice so he kept repeating this at random times throughout the phase, and I NEVER noticed!!

I was busy making him look for clues to a potential crossroads on the approach to every junction, and even parked him up to show him how to spot one from a distance.  I was very pleased with myself at this point.  He then made some observational errors on the approach and I corrected them.  But then he went too fast turning right at a crossroads (from the priority road to the non-priority road), so I parked him up and I put this down to speed of approach.  In hindsight, it turns out I'd missed a coasting fault.  He then repeatedly cut right corners, and again I put this down to speed of approach, yet he told me later it was because he was unable to identify his point of turn correctly.

End of phase, and by this point I'm thinking I've only got half an hour to go until I'm an Approved Driving Instructor!!. 


PHASE 2 = PED CROSSINGS & SIGNALS, WITH EMPHASIS ON ARM SIGNALS

I gave no briefing but did Q & A over the arm signals.  I made him demo them with mirror checks.  But he did them quite quick and concealed the arm signal with the way he was sitting.  Caught me off-guard and I stupidly didn't make him show me again.  Off we go and he starts doing the arm signals for left and right with his palm facing the tarmac, instead of the karate chop hand shape.  And I never noticed!!  I was too busy congratulating myself on making him check the correct mirrors.  Then we abandon arm signals in favour of indicator signals.  And he starts putting on the left signal when turning right and vice versa.  I noticed it and corrected it but found out later he'd done it 4 times prior to me noticing !!!

Then came the bit where he sowed me up like a turkey.  "My friend says we should 'poodle' on through amber lights at a pelican".  I'm busy saying we should really wait 'till the crossing is clear, but he persists with "But surely I shouldn't hold up the traffic if the pedestrian has moved past my side of the crossing".  I continue to reject his notion.  He persists saying  "it's rush hour, and the pedestrian is really slow, and already past my side of the crossing etc. "   So now I think he wants me to pass and is throwing me a bone.....  So I hang myself by saying that if the pedestrian had a zimmer and was going really slow, then a certain amount of common sense could be applied.  Of course, now I've re-read the H. Code and can see it's a point of Law to wait until clear.

The next error was his signally too early or too late, which I explained quite well but didn't give him a method, i.e. signal when a certain amount of car lengths from the junction etc.  Then we parked back at the test centre, and I'm now a bit nervous...... maybe I'll just get a 4/4....

Then came the verdict.  A 3/3 with some valuable feedback.  Was totally shocked.  Now more practice, a bit more training, and 2nd attempt booked for late April.  Hope this helps someone.  Just wanted to give a bit back to the forum that helps me so much.


Paul Cook, ADI, Grade 5, DIAmond Special Test

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25-02-09 14:21:59

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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up



#2 25-02-09 14:26:36

paulcook
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From: Edinburgh
Registered: 13-05-08
Posts: 130
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Sorry, I should have said "flashing amber" lights instead of just "amber" for the Phase 2.


Paul Cook, ADI, Grade 5, DIAmond Special Test

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#3 25-02-09 14:59:19

mani
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Registered: 05-06-08
Posts: 67

Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Sorry to hear that Paul, thanks for the write up will really help me, all the best for April.

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#4 25-02-09 18:38:23

ceecee
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From: Milton Keynes
Registered: 05-01-08
Posts: 34

Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Sorry about your delayed success with the part 3, I hope your 2nd attempt is a success!!


ADI Part 1 passed: 28/03/2008
ADI Part 2 passed: 03/07/2008
ADI Part 3 failed: 28/07/2009
ADI Part 3 failed: 30/09/2009
ADI Part 3 passed:07/10/2009

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#5 25-02-09 22:45:08

lele
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From: Derbyshire
Registered: 29-09-08
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Sorry to hear that Paul sad  thank you for sharing your story and I hope that April brings you the result you have worked for.

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#6 26-02-09 00:09:16

tony adi
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From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Unfortunate result paul.

Reading through your write up seems like a classic example of sacrificing the core competencies for the sake of the PST.

If you look at PST 9 sheet, on the left side is the subject, basically he is going to put in faults on these things. Starts with MSM, so core competency one watch him like a hawk, he's going to put in a fault related to MSM. Spot it and fix it, he won't repeat that fault. Next likely faults are obs and speed (no need to go through how to identify a crossroads from a distance by the way -he's partly trained) again spot and fix the faults. What are you left with? Position, cutting corners etc. Again faults are going to be to do with these. Spot them and fix them.

The PST tells you what faults he is going to put in. You know they are going to happen, watch for them and sort them straight away. Or even better use embedded commands to pre- empt them. Don't get hung up on trying to teach him all there is to know about crossroads in 25 mins (it's not going to happen  big_smile)


Same with the phase 2, look at the subject, these are going to be the faults. On your phase 2 write up re the signals, you applied the first two core competencies but not the third (you didn't tell him the fix) Identify the fault, Analyse the fault, Fix the fault.

Part 3 is all about the core competencies, you have to see the faults, then take it from there.


Or to put it another way, on the left hand side of PST sheet is a nice handy list of the faults he's going to put in, all you have to do is spot them  big_smile You get marked in the boxes on the right, not the left  big_smile


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#7 26-02-09 00:10:33

KevB
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From: Amesbury
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Of course, now I've re-read the H. Code and can see it's a point of Law to wait until clear.

Hi Paul,
Re the above quote.
What does a flashing amber light mean?

I believe you are mistaken if you believe a driver cannot proceed if the crossing is occupied.
The flashing amber light carries the same meaning as a green light. Proceed if safe to do so.
Provided you do not endanger the pedestrian, you may proceed if safe to do so, even if the pedestrian has not reached the kerb.
The DE was indeed throwing you a lifeline.

It's good to read you are remaining positive and keen, and I hope your additional training is targeted at the weaknesses that have been identified.

Reading your write-up, I would ask your trainer to encourage you to work on watching the pupil more.

The vast majority of the errors appear to be down to lack of observing exactly what the de was physically doing.

Also, your phase 1 session reads as though the de was doing what he wanted. He is a novice, and inexperienced in this topic. He requires complete talk through.
Even if he can turn left or right perfectly at junctions, he doesn't yet know how to use those skills at a x-roads.

Think about the MSPSL routine, then watch your phase 2 pupil carefully, if he's not doing each step of the MSPSL routine when you would, then he needs help with it.

I suspect the reason you feel so shocked at the result is a lack of understanding as to what is actually being tested, and what is required.
Your trainer can help you with this.

Good luck with the training and best wishes for your next attempt smile


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#8 26-02-09 00:54:30

KevB
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From: Amesbury
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

(no need to go through how to identify a crossroads from a distance by the way -he's partly trained)

Hi Tony,
There is EVERY need to help him identify crossroads.

Partly trained in the context of the PST's simply means he's not a total beginner, and he has covered some topics BUT NOT THIS ONE.

He has never been taught crossroads and so needs full assistance at the beginning of the session.

He may know how to apply MSPSL for turning left at a side road (unless he's said he has done junctions left/right, you don't know, it's possible he's not even done that  satisfactorily yet.n Never assume !!), but how does he apply MSPSL at a crossroads? Who has priority? how does the additional road effect how he approaches?

Phase 1 pupil has never done this subject before.

Most phase 2 topics have been covered before, but the pupil is not yet independent.

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#9 26-02-09 08:20:25

tony adi
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From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

It's covered on the briefing Kev, no need for this;

and even parked him up to show him how to spot one from a distance.


Partly trained means verbal briefing is all that is required (link to T junctions etc), show some nice piccys etc then get on and teach them. Q&A during briefing will establish that he has emerged right at a junction before. Contrary to popular opinion it is possible to over instruct on phase 1.


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#10 26-02-09 08:40:52

paulcook
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Thanks very much for the replies folks.  And good advice Tony about expecting the faults on the left hand side of the page....    I think there's a penny or two still to drop in my over-all understanding.  Maybe can't see the wood for the trees.  I will definitely practice harder on spotting faults and comparing the responses of my real life pupils to what I would do. 

On a slightly different note, rule 196 in the H. Code makes it pretty clear about flashing ambers at Pelicans - in that the crossing should be completely free of pedestrians....     Just wish I'd remembered this at the time! 

Thanks again folks


Paul Cook, ADI, Grade 5, DIAmond Special Test

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#11 26-02-09 09:10:33

tony adi
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From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Just on the flashing amber paul, here's the legislation;

(f) the flashing amber signal shall convey the information that vehicular traffic may proceed through the crossing but that every pedestrian who is on the carriageway or a central reservation within the limits of a crossing (but not if he is on a central reservation which lies between two crossings forming part of a system of staggered crossings) before any part of the vehicle has entered those limits, has the right of precedence within those limits over that vehicle, and the requirement that the driver of a vehicle shall accord such precedence to any such pedestrian.


In English means if they're on any part of the crossing, you must wait.

Flashing amber, does not mean the same as green.


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#12 26-02-09 09:16:17

KevB
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From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Hi paul,
The reglations actually state that the pedestrian as precedence, and that a flashing amber light shall mean the same as a green light (proceed if safe).

Neither has the legal meanng that a driver MUST wait for the crossing to clear.

HWC is for general guidance, and do not be confused with the MUST in rule 196.

It does not mean a driver MUST wait for the crossing to clear.

It means (and actually says quite clearly that a driver MUST give way to any pedestrian on the crossing.
It also says that IF the crossing is clear, proceed with caution.
The 2 issues are seperate and should not be combined to mean the crossing MUST be clear.

Hi Tony,

If the pst was reverse into an opening to the left or right, phase 1 and the pupil has never reversed, why is it stll classed as part trained?

With the exception to the 1st 2 PSTs , the psts phase 1 all say part trained.

I agree with you that you teach from the known to the unknown, but my point was not to confuse the wording part trained to mean the pupil knows anything at all about the pst subject, nor that the candidate should assume the pupil has any retained knowledge or skill related to any other subject remotely linked to it.

If a PDI elected to pull the pupil over ahead of a crossroads and perform a mini briefing to hilight clues regarding identifying the crossing and how to approach and deal with it, I cannot think of any SE or DTAM I have met that would have any issue with it.

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#13 26-02-09 09:20:15

KevB
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From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Just on the flashing amber paul, here's the legislation;

(f) the flashing amber signal shall convey the information that vehicular traffic may proceed through the crossing but that every pedestrian who is on the carriageway or a central reservation within the limits of a crossing (but not if he is on a central reservation which lies between two crossings forming part of a system of staggered crossings) before any part of the vehicle has entered those limits, has the right of precedence within those limits over that vehicle, and the requirement that the driver of a vehicle shall accord such precedence to any such pedestrian.


In English means if they're on any part of the crossing, you must wait.

Flashing amber, does not mean the same as green.

Sorry Tony, you completely misunderstand the law and the HWC guidance and are saying exactly what I said in my post not to be confused with.

Study the HWC  rule 196 wording, and then read ZPPPCR wording regulations 22/23 and then read up on the definition of precedence in respect of zpppcr.

I would suggest if anyone wishes clarity on what the local TCM and DTAMs are looking for from their candidates then I urge them to call in and ask them, it costs nothing and would help to clarify what is wanted locally.

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#14 26-02-09 09:50:33

tony adi
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From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Hi Kev

Can you point out the section in the regs that says;

and that a flashing amber light shall mean the same as a green light (proceed if safe).

Then came the bit where he sowed me up like a turkey.  "My friend says we should 'poodle' on through amber lights at a pelican".  I'm busy saying we should really wait 'till the crossing is clear, but he persists with "But surely I shouldn't hold up the traffic if the pedestrian has moved past my side of the crossing".  I continue to reject his notion.  He persists saying  "it's rush hour, and the pedestrian is really slow, and already past my side of the crossing etc. "   So now I think he wants me to pass and is throwing me a bone.....  So I hang myself by saying that if the pedestrian had a zimmer and was going really slow, then a certain amount of common sense could be applied.  Of course, now I've re-read the H. Code and can see it's a point of Law to wait until clear.


The pedestrian is still on the crossing, WAIT.


Even if the lights green, if the pedestrians are still on the crossing you wait.


Your earlier post;

I believe you are mistaken if you believe a driver cannot proceed if the crossing is occupied.
The flashing amber light carries the same meaning as a green light. Proceed if safe to do so.
Provided you do not endanger the pedestrian, you may proceed if safe to do so, even if the pedestrian has not reached the kerb.


H/C says must wait until crossing is clear, regs say within those limits over that vehicle. What the SE wanted was to be told this. Telling him it's ok to proceed with pedestrians on crossing is not what he wanted to hear. He wanted clear instruction refuting the advice of his "friend".


With the exception to the 1st 2 PSTs , the psts phase 1 all say part trained.

For very good reason. So that PDI can establish level of knowledge with Q&A during briefing. If "pupil" has already been taught MSPSL your not teaching it, your correcting any faults with application of it. Your teaching the PST subject not re-teaching things the "pupil" already knows. Of course they have retained knowledge. The PDI needs to establish the level of this knowledge and tailor instruction to suit. How they go about this is one of the things being tested (correct use of Q&A technique)




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#15 26-02-09 10:10:23

KevB
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From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Tony,
you read what you think is correct, not what is written.

Seek guidance from your local TCM, DTAM, trainer, or roadlaw representative.

But somehow, I beleive if any 1 of them disagrees with your preconceived idea of what is meant in the legislation, they will still be wrong.

Oh, and no doubt, you will still need to have the last word, even with them.

So please, have the last word here too, just so this can be put to bed.

I really cannot suffer you any longer.

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#16 26-02-09 21:36:34

tony adi
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From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Yep, just checked this is ADI part 3 section.


On pauls part 3 the SE or "pupil" was arguing about pedestrians still on the crossing, all he wanted to hear was what it says in H/C;


Pelican crossings. These are signal-controlled crossings where flashing amber follows the red ‘Stop’ light. You MUST stop when the red light shows. When the amber light is flashing, you MUST give way to any pedestrians on the crossing. If the amber light is flashing and there are no pedestrians on the crossing, you may proceed with caution.

Wittering on about anything else is going to get people failed. Simple.

If anybody wants to debate the finer points of the various laws they can do so in the private section.

All that is needed in this section is clear guidance on what the SE is looking for.


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#17 27-02-09 07:21:34

mcculde
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From: SOUTH HANTS
Registered: 30-09-08
Posts: 60

Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Hi Paul Sorry to hear about your part 3 examination. Sounds like you should be okay for next time. I got PST 9 for my part 3 exam so can understand how you are feeling. The forum legends have pretty much covered where your faults lie from my point of view I dont teach PSTs I teach the subject so that you know each aspect of driving inside out. When you come to do the part 3 anything that is not like you would do normally yourself when driving needs to be sorted. As for the legends above squaring off re Pedestrian Crossings. I would never allow a learner to move off when a pedestrian is on a crossing. 2 reasons for this 1 they will continue to do it when on there own and maybe leave a minimal gap and 2 what happens if the people on the crossing forget something and about turn. We should at all times put SAFETY 1st. This is why Pelicans are now being replaced by Puffins. Why simple if our light is green we may proceed if it is not green we stop.

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#18 27-02-09 13:26:00

evondoll
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From: Glasgow
Registered: 27-01-09
Posts: 204
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

I'm with Kevin on how to deal with ped crossings. Give way to peds on the crossing and go when it is clear....there is no need to wait for the peds to get all the way over onto the pavement if your road ahead is clear and the light is flashing amber.

Think about a big wide road with a ped crossing (no central island)....peds crossing from your left to your right, they get more than half way across the road when the light flashes amber, are you really gonna wait till they get all the way over onto the pavement? Can't see the drivers behind being too happy about that. It is safe to go, so go.

The op should speak to the dtam as I would say he was throwing a life line in this case.

Evon x

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#19 27-02-09 18:09:06

Doc
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Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

"196
Signal-controlled crossings
Pelican crossings. These are signal-controlled crossings where flashing amber follows the red ‘Stop’ light. You MUST stop when the red light shows. When the amber light is flashing, you MUST give way to any pedestrians on the crossing. If the amber light is flashing and there are no pedestrians on the crossing, you may proceed with caution."

We all know the use of the word "MUST" has a legal standing and by not adhering to it we would be in violation of a rule. It clearly states in rule 196 that "you MUST give way to any pedestrians on the crossing." also it states "If the amber light is flashing and there are no pedestrians on the crossing, you may proceed with caution."

To me, it is clear that we should not continue until the crossing is clear.

If we were to apply the logic that some have, then there is no legal requirement to stay stopped at a red light if the crossing was clear. The rule does not state that we MUST stay stopped.

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#20 27-02-09 18:19:54

DampDog
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From: Staffordshire.
Registered: 04-02-06
Posts: 1,538

Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

Just an observation, have you ever noticed how the two cars facing each other at a crossing react to each others vehicle. Very often if one starts to move so will the other, regardless of what's on the crossing, then have to stop for the pedestrian they just noticed.

I'll be honest and say I don't know which of the possible answers is correct, but my line is "If the crossing is clear, proceed" Try to define what is partially clear and safe is just a bit too hit and miss, literally... big_smile


ADI (car)
1st CT (5)

I used to be a compleat idiot, until some bits fell off...

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#21 27-02-09 18:32:29

Doc
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Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

"194
Allow pedestrians plenty of time to cross and do not harass them by revving your engine or edging forward."

It does not say allow pedestrians plenty of time to partially cross.

"195
Zebra crossings. As you approach a zebra crossing

look out for pedestrians waiting to cross and be ready to slow down or stop to let them cross you MUST give way when a pedestrian has moved onto a crossing
allow more time for stopping on wet or icy roads
do not wave or use your horn to invite pedestrians across; this could be dangerous if another vehicle is approaching
be aware of pedestrians approaching from the side of the crossing

A zebra crossing with a central island is two separate crossings (see Rule 20)."

Again it states "let them cross" as opposed to stating let them partially cross.

If you think that "to cross" means traveling from one pavement to another via a crossing then there is no ambiguity whatsoever.

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#22 27-02-09 18:57:26

Doc
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

But it does say let them cross and by definition they have not crossed if they are still on the crossing. I think the examiners views are different to what the HC is if you are saying that candidates are not being faulted for this on test and it would be best to ask at each TC what they require from a candidate on test. Personally, i will always teach to allow pedestrians to be clear of the crossing as that is how i interpret the HC and IMO i am giving my pupils the best option.

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#23 27-02-09 18:58:44

Doc
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Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

If I let them cross and then I proceed when they are not yet off the crossing but well on the other side then I have, by definition, "let them cross". I have given way to them and allowed them to cross without harrassing.

No where have I seen any evidence that they mean anything else... I would have expected to see words like "let them completely cross" or "do not proceed whilst the pedestrian is still on the crossing" etc.

Nope, I interpret everything that has been quoted here to suggest that proceeding while someone is still on the crossing is permitted.

But it isn't clear cut is it so I could be wrong smile

So you consider them to "have crossed" even though they haven't "fully crossed"

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#24 27-02-09 19:05:30

Doc
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Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cross

to move, pass, or extend from one side to the other side of (a street, river, etc.).

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define. … &dict=CALD
cross (GO ACROSS)   Show phonetics
verb [I or T]
to go across from one side of something to the other:

http://www.yourdictionary.com/cross
the act of crossing, as from one side of a stage to the other

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#25 27-02-09 20:41:51

tony adi
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From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
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Re: Failed Pt 3 - Took me a week to come to terms! Here's the write up

There really is no wonder PDI's fail part 3.

The OP failed his part 3 partly because he gave muddled and incorrect instruction to his pupil. Weakness in core competencies.

H/C and regs say wait until crossing is clear. I repeat that is what S/E wanted to hear.

Debating the interpretation of precedence is all well and good if people want to do it in the private section. On here it is just confusing PDI's reading this.

The reason I quoted the regs was for the benefit of paul. I really couldn't give a toss how anybody else wants to interpret them.

My only advice to any PDI's who find themselves in a similar situation on part 3 is quite simple. Give clear concise unambiguous instruction. If the crossing is clear you may proceed on flashing amber. If there are pedestrians on the crossing (or the S/E asks about pedestrians on the crossing)  H/C says wait. Do not tell S/E that flashing amber means the same as green. Do not get into a debate about it on part 3. Or you WILL fail.





www.selbydriving.co.uk

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“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy
state of things.”
~ Winston Churchill

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