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#1 27-11-08 21:39:55

BassGirl
Verified Member
Registered: 13-03-05
Posts: 191

MSM TIR

Hi

Im just about to do my second attempt at check test after getting a 3 on my first one. Ive decided to do role play and am going to do MSM and TIR. Does anyone have any tips that could help me?

Thanks

K

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27-11-08 21:39:55

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Re: MSM TIR




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#2 27-11-08 23:40:50

timmanwaringadi
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From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
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Re: MSM TIR

Check tests with manoeuvres have to be spot on. Examiners get bored doing them and they are covered in all the books, so they really know what they are looking for.

Often a check test with a more interesting subject will be more useful. Try to pick a subject you feel really comfortable teaching, with a bit more scope to show your abilities and get learning to take place.

If you do decide on TIR, know it backwards, listen to the word picture (really try to work with the SE as a customer who you are picking up from another instructor) and take feedback from what information they give you - adapting your lesson to the way they want to be taught.

One thing - would it not be worth getting some training in first?

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#3 28-11-08 11:35:54

BassGirl
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Registered: 13-03-05
Posts: 191

Re: MSM TIR

This is the subject im most comfortable with. Hopefully he wont be too bored. I have had several hours of training. I was just asking for any other advice from people on this board aswell as that.

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#4 28-11-08 11:50:20

timmanwaringadi
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From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
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Re: MSM TIR

Glad to hear it.

One other hint - try to tailor the route to the TIR so that it gives you lots of scope for mirror work, eg: cycle lanes, ped x, roads close together etc.

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#5 28-11-08 13:28:14

jonnmedds
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 154

Re: MSM TIR

Glad to hear it.

One other hint - try to tailor the route to the TIR so that it gives you lots of scope for mirror work, eg: cycle lanes, ped x, roads close together etc.

Also make sure the route back to the DTC gives the SE lots of scope to demonstrate mirror work.
A former SE told me that lots of ADI's seem to switch off on the way back to the DTC.

Jon

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#6 28-11-08 14:50:08

timmanwaringadi
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From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
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Re: MSM TIR

A former SE told me that lots of ADI's seem to switch off on the way back to the DTC.

Jon

Something demonstrated perfectly by me switching off and forgetting to mention this before I posted.

Completely agree.

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#7 04-12-08 21:53:59

BassGirl
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Registered: 13-03-05
Posts: 191

Re: MSM TIR

what advice would you give if the subject of waving people on comes up?

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#8 04-12-08 22:02:52

timmanwaringadi
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From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
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Re: MSM TIR

I raised this question in the 2pass forum (mods - feel free to remove if necessary):

http://2passforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=52130

Hope this helps you make up your mind, but basically - discourage it, unless it is the safest way of dealing with a situation.

It's worth discussing it in the brief/recap.

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#9 06-12-08 22:35:56

Brad Pitstop
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Registered: 24-01-07
Posts: 205

Re: MSM TIR

     Be prepared to change the lesson COMPLETELY if some other problem rears its head.If necessary don't do TIR. My buddy did same two subjects last week and got a 4. Examiner said he would have given him 6 for TIR and use of mirrors, but at one point they got stuck behind a scaffold truck which my mate talked the pupil through and carried on with the lesson. Examiner said he should have gone round the block talked it through with pup, then done it again if necessary leaving TIR to another day.

Also when I passed my part three my SEADI told me never to do role play. Hope this is of some help.

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#10 07-12-08 19:11:09

Graham Hooper
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From: Ashford Kent
Registered: 12-02-06
Posts: 223
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Re: MSM TIR

Hi

Sorry Tim, John Farlam recently wrote an article about some one who got a 6 on TIR. If your good enough your pass if your not get some training.


www.1st-4.org
www.tri-coachingpartnership.co.uk
Part 3 Rescue a speciality, Fleet/Learner check test, Coaching courses, Advanced driving SAFED, ADI-CPD or if just want some advice.

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#11 07-12-08 19:19:37

timmanwaringadi
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From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
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Re: MSM TIR

I can't disagree with that. (I don't think I did, did I?)

If you're good you'll get the grade. However, most grade sixes that I've heard of have been from innovative and effective lessons. Applying this to a TIR is possible (as I suspect John Farlam outlined), but it doesn't always get people excited.

I tend to reckon that many people who choose to do manoeuvres are just trying to go safe with check-tests. There are always exceptions though.

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#12 07-12-08 20:07:29

BassGirl
Verified Member
Registered: 13-03-05
Posts: 191

Re: MSM TIR

I raised this question in the 2pass forum (mods - feel free to remove if necessary):

http://2passforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=52130

Hope this helps you make up your mind, but basically - discourage it, unless it is the safest way of dealing with a situation.

It's worth discussing it in the brief/recap.

i cant seem to view this topic. can someone give me an overview?

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#13 07-12-08 20:15:51

timmanwaringadi
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From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
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Re: MSM TIR

Apologies, it's in the ADI section, you'd need to ask the mods to let you in.

A quick precis:

Waving through should be considered very very carefully. It can be used in situations where safety would be improved by doing so, but only if full observations have been carried out. By doing so you are taking some responsibility for the safety of the driver who you are waving through, so don't just do it to get rid of them.

I brought it up as there were several comments from ADIs saying "don't waive through as you'll fail" with no explanation why, or explanation as to how to do it if you really need to once you've passed.

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#14 07-12-08 23:19:19

shelim
Verified Member
Registered: 11-01-08
Posts: 101

Re: MSM TIR

HI, Bassgirl
sorry to be a pain

Just a question why are you doing a role play?

I did a TIR and turning left/right at junction in my check test and got 5 and I used a pupil

My advice TIR and MSM don't go together because when you do TIR then the problem will be in pedal or steering controls which you can work on if you do  Junctions. 

where you going to fit the MSM lesson when their problem will be controls ?

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#15 08-12-08 10:32:36

BassGirl
Verified Member
Registered: 13-03-05
Posts: 191

Re: MSM TIR

thanks. would it be acceptable to tell the examiner to push the wheel up from the bottom on the first part of the reverse turn?

im doing it because i feel i will be better with this situation as i used a pupil the first time and failed. all of my pupils are very nervous and not happy to have someone watching them. as am i

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#16 08-12-08 10:56:56

Makem Drive
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-08
Posts: 197

Re: MSM TIR

I was told that the correct steering method is Pull-Push (not Push-Pull as we often call it). This is because the most convenient hold is at 10-2 (horizontal spokes often make 9-3 less comfortable/convenient) so you can turn the wheel further on the first movement before having to change grips.

I have also been told that the method is not 'set in stone' so as long as the driver remains in full control (and doesn't cross hands) Push-Pull should not be a problem.

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#17 08-12-08 11:53:46

BassGirl
Verified Member
Registered: 13-03-05
Posts: 191

Re: MSM TIR

yes . but if you are taking your handbrake off with your left hand  be quicker to wouldnt it be quicker use the right hand first on the steering wheel

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#18 08-12-08 12:00:08

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: MSM TIR

Does it work?

Is it safe?

If the answer to both of these questions is yes then there should be no problem, don't worry about the technicalities so much. I don't tend to teach such specific things to customers unless they're actually having trouble controlling the steering. Most customers who are taught the TIR at the right stage (i.e: not too soon) can handle steering with little or no advice.

There's always the odd one who struggles with the steering though in which case I'd see no problem with you suggesting this if this was the case, but beware of over-instructing. If they don't struggle, don't bother mentioning it. If you can put in a couple of tight turns on the way to the TIR you'll soon find out if they struggle with their steering. An ex on roleplay shouldn't steer perfectly on the way then suddenly lose the ability to co-ordinate once there.

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#19 08-12-08 12:17:37

Makem Drive
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-08
Posts: 197

Re: MSM TIR

yes . but if you are taking your handbrake off with your left hand be quicker to wouldn't it be quicker use the right hand first on the steering wheel

True but both the left & right reverse start with a straight reverse & in the TIR all odd numbered sections (1st 3rd 5th etc.) start with a turn to the right.

Also we are supposed to teach the pupils that they should turn the wheel unless they have both hands on it. When changing gear (on a larger r-bout for example) they can do so as long as they are just holding the wheel in the turned position & not actually turning it.

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#20 08-12-08 12:35:04

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: MSM TIR

Pull/push or push/pull, crossing hands, handbrake or no handbrake, all of no importance in first brief. Do not tell the examiner how to steer if he's just driven to site where you are doing manouvre, he knows how to steer. Emphasis should be on speed (dead slow) and observations.
Keep the brief simple, see how he does, correct any faults. Do not correct "faults" that don't exist.


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#21 08-12-08 12:39:51

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: MSM TIR

Good post Tony and a lot more concise than mine.

I would probably mention the handbrake though, but I'd be asking them about the camber and how they thought that might affect them during the manoeuvre. Not essential though as if it's a first time TIR you'll be giving full talk through anyway.

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#22 08-12-08 12:49:36

Makem Drive
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-08
Posts: 197

Re: MSM TIR

I agree with Tony.

If there is a steering fault then it is more likely to be timing/speed rather than method. He could turn the wheel too slow or travel a few yards before turning it to get the car in a position that would make it difficult to complete the TIR. If he is moving dead slow then steering would be easy to correct & you would have time to make him do the obs. If he takes off like a bat out of hell then you don't have much chance of correcting anything so the speed is the important factor.

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#23 08-12-08 15:56:25

BassGirl
Verified Member
Registered: 13-03-05
Posts: 191

Re: MSM TIR

well i passed : ) phew!

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#24 08-12-08 16:15:17

neil8181
Verified Member
From: Accrington
Registered: 03-11-07
Posts: 645

Re: MSM TIR

Well done!

Care to share your experience.

Did you go with TITR/MSM?

What did you get?


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#25 08-12-08 16:18:15

BassGirl
Verified Member
Registered: 13-03-05
Posts: 191

Re: MSM TIR

I got a 4 but thats fine by me as I thought I was going to fail again. Yes I went with that and it was fine. The SE said he would use a pupil but he doesnt mind doing role play. Did half the lesson on MSM then went to site fdor TIR and then did more MSM on way back to TC

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