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#51 13-11-09 20:18:59

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

....I would also suggest that if you find Roadcraft more flexible than DSA for your own driving, then you are not using it the way it is intended and you should be looking closely at why you need more 'flexibility' in your own driving!

OK, I'll bite.  Yes I find Roadcraft more flexible.  How am I not using the way it is intended?  Is it not supposed to be more flexible then?

I have been using the principles in Roadcraft before looking at my Pt2 and have not found any conflict for teaching/coaching.....

2 things come to mind. 

DSA recommend keeping to the centre of your lane for a left hand bend.  Roadcraft suggests moving out to the right.

DSA don't like the straightening of roundabouts.  Roadcraft doesn't object!

Roadcraft and the DSA appear to be coming closer in thought and, perhaps, there may be a consensus one day, but until then....

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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13-11-09 20:18:59

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Re: Position for Corners.




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#52 14-11-09 07:15:51

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

''I agree some very valid points have been made in posts on this thread and my main gripe with On Board Training is that he/she seems very rigid & inflexible in their viewpoint. ''
It is you that comes across as rigid and inflexible, maybe you ought to take a bit of your own advice that you so kindly gave out in another thread of ''admitting that you are not always right''
Roadcraft was essentially designed for the police driver, it was 'watered down' to allow the general public to use it as a reference book that would be relevant and useful to them. I believe that a true understanding and appreciation of the principles and techniques used in Roadcraft cannot be achieved unless you have used it for the purpose for which it originally intended.What you are doing when teaching the general public to extend on corners where you obviously don't fully understand what to do , when to do it and more importantly why it is done in that manner is (in my opinion)  irresponsible and likely to lead to conflict with other road users in one way or another.
With regards to using systems, whatever system is used the purpose is allow the driver to approach and negotiate  in a methodical and safe manner. Effectiveness of the  system comes from HOW it is used whether that be the DSA or Road craft system.

''Roadcraft and the DSA appear to be coming closer in thought and, perhaps, there may be a consensus one day''

There might well be for the advanced driver but there are aspects of Roadcraft that clearly do not apply nor should be taught to the novice.


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

Offline


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#53 14-11-09 09:10:22

jlo31
Verified Member
Registered: 17-02-09
Posts: 194
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi,

I have recently taken my Motor cycle IAM test. There has been feed back from the examiners that some riders hang on to just left of centre line when approaching a left hand bend (which is fine) but do Not move in as soon as they see oncoming traffic. I was taught to move out nr the centre line but not to cross it and of course only if safe to do so (road conditions, on coming traffic etc)

As soon I see an traffic approaching I move back to safety toward  the middle of my lane. Safety always over position.

I bought a DVD from Bespoke training of advanced driving which is good and there is a section on 'offsiding' It does say that this should only be considered by experienced advanced drivers and only on some roads would it benefit.

I personally see little need of it for our speed limits and roads (and yes I do enjoy making safe progress on my bike) and would not teach it. Imagine this scenario. We are offsiding to get an improved view around a left hand bend. Yamaha R1 Rossi wannabe comming the other way at 120MPH knee down. The closing speed would be so quick I don't think we would have time to get back to our side of the road.

Just my thought.
Jlo31





RoSPA Diploma in Advanced Driving Instruction
IAM Motorcycle
DSA ADI (Car)
DSA Fleet registered trainer (Grade 5)
www.PrecisionDriverTraining.co.

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#54 14-11-09 09:45:32

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi,

That , I think is a very valid point regarding seeing it from both perspectives.

Just to clarify something as well: if someone has been taught by a trainer and then examined by an examiner who is versed in the 'old school' of teaching/coaching joe public Roadcraft and they have great respect for that or those individual(s) then I can understand why some may think they must be right.

Personally I was in the police but not in the Traffic, so I had a 3 week driving course in early '87 when I was 20 and I loved it, opened my eyes a great deal at that time (even although the main person who taught me to drive was my dad who was covering huge mileages at work and had previously sat his IAM). Over the years my driving hit peaks and troughs and by the time I started training to be a driving instructor in 2001, my driving was very much average, if not worse, not had any training in 14yrs! At this time the course did not include an Emergency Response Training element but was also more relaxed with the higher speeds you could drive at outwith 30 or restricted speed zones.

Started training to be an instructor and went for IAM and RoSPA as I was working towards Pts 1 & 2 - felt I had really good knowledgeable trainers and had no real issues with both styles meeting and from the word 'go' I have used the one system. I was not taught to go opposing carriageway (or offsiding as some mention)(NOTE: the positioning term has been opposing carriageway for a good few years and offside is a reference to just left of centre of your own side of the road or some may say about 12" to left of white line)  nor taught to straight line roundabouts.

Various driving tests and assessments followed and I was also fortunate to be a trainer for Fleet with RoSPA, IAM & Drivetech and all three were clear about not doing or teaching what is being discussed here and I think that pretty much rules out differences some may suggest there may be between Scottish and English police driver training. I have also been aware for a while that some trainers have held on to what they were taught some time ago and are abit reluctant to change.

I left the police in 2002 to set up my driving school and was then fortunate in 2005 to be given a years employed contract with a police driving school and received a very good training course myself including qualified to teach ERT. AND this is where I saw and taught for myself the differences in the application of the 'System'.

I was involved in teaching the police Standard Driving Course with ERT element tagged on after students had passed it. Even then it was not permitted on the course to straight line roundabouts unless it was part of an emergency response element. Going opposing carriageway for 'normal drive' was only really encouraged if above NSLs and benefits in extended view especially when considering overtakes.

#55 14-11-09 11:17:48

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi,

I meant to add that since 2001 I have also been a tutor with the local RoSPA Group (also have my Diploma and I am the Senior Training officer for the Group) - Iwas observer with IAM also for a while but decided to commit fully to one Advanced Driving Group & for me personally the RoSPA Group ticked the boxes for me.

I may also add here that it doesn't matter to me so much about what tests or courses I have done, it is more about how I continue to look at and work on my own driving and teaching albeit I have not been as active as I would have liked since late 2005. I have been advising my wife re her driving school and instructors since then and I hope to be more active again soon. I am also eyeing up the ADI Masterclass Courses that John Farlam runs as well as other advanced driving courses for 2010.

#56 14-11-09 13:37:28

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

There have been some very interesting and valid points raised in the last few posts.
It appears the general consensus is that extending of 'offsiding' as it has been referred to should not be taught to the general public as it is is not relevant or necessary to the style of driving being taught. The potential for 'getting it wrong' could and does have disastrous and tragic consequences.   


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

Offline


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#57 14-11-09 16:34:13

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

....It is you that comes across as rigid and inflexible,

How so?  I'm not the one that is saying something must not be done or must be done.

maybe you ought to take a bit of your own advice that you so kindly gave out in another thread of ''admitting that you are not always right''

I never have insisted I am always right.  Nor would I ever do.

Roadcraft was essentially designed for the police driver, it was 'watered down' to allow the general public to use it as a reference book that would be relevant and useful to them. I believe that a true understanding and appreciation of the principles and techniques used in Roadcraft cannot be achieved unless you have used it for the purpose for which it originally intended.

Then we will have to agree to disagree on that one.  Just one question, how can a male doctor ever give advice on pregnancy & giving birth if they have never given birth themselves?  They can and do, so why shouldn't a trainer well versed in Roadcraft give advice & training in the Roadcraft system without ever having used it on an energency?

What you are doing when teaching the general public to extend on corners where you obviously don't fully understand what to do , when to do it and more importantly why it is done in that manner is (in my opinion)  irresponsible and likely to lead to conflict with other road users in one way or another.

Since safety should be paramount, how is it likely to lead to conflict with other road users?

With regards to using systems, whatever system is used the purpose is allow the driver to approach and negotiate  in a methodical and safe manner. Effectiveness of the  system comes from HOW it is used whether that be the DSA or Road craft system.

I quite agree.

''Roadcraft and the DSA appear to be coming closer in thought and, perhaps, there may be a consensus one day''

There might well be for the advanced driver but there are aspects of Roadcraft that clearly do not apply nor should be taught to the novice.

Again I agree.  It was 'OnBoard' that stated  (my highlighting)

....let's remember there is no real difference in what you are teaching/coaching your learners, Pt2s, Fleet or Advanced drivers. They are being or should be taught the same system....

I don't believe I am taking him/her out of context, my apologies if I have.

....As soon I see an traffic approaching I move back to safety toward  the middle of my lane. Safety always over position.

Absolutely.  Safety is  and always should be, paramount!

....Imagine this scenario. We are offsiding to get an improved view around a left hand bend. Yamaha R1 Rossi wannabe comming the other way at 120MPH knee down. The closing speed would be so quick I don't think we would have time to get back to our side of the road.....

If you can't see that it is safe to do it, why would you do it?

....Just to clarify something as well: if someone has been taught by a trainer and then examined by an examiner who is versed in the 'old school' of teaching/coaching joe public Roadcraft and they have great respect for that or those individual(s) then I can understand why some may think they must be right.

Yes I agree.  Phrasing this paragraph the way you have helps me see why you think you must be right.  I would suggest you should add just a touch of flexibility to your beliefs.

....I was not taught to go opposing carriageway (or offsiding as some mention)(NOTE: the positioning term has been opposing carriageway for a good few years and offside is a reference to just left of centre of your own side of the road or some may say about 12" to left of white line)

That's just semantics.  A rose by any other name.......

nor taught to straight line roundabouts.

So you were never taught to straighten roundabouts.  So what?  That doesn't mean it's wrong to do so.

There have been some very interesting and valid points raised in the last few posts.
It appears the general consensus is that extending of 'offsiding' as it has been referred to should not be taught to the general public as it is is not relevant or necessary to the style of driving being taught. The potential for 'getting it wrong' could and does have disastrous and tragic consequences.

Perhaps, for that very reason, it should be raised and discussed?  A little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing?

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#58 14-11-09 16:45:57

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi Nigel,

Not out of context, it is the same 'system' that I teach.

Please if you can, list the different 'systems' you feel you are teaching?

SYSTEM:

Learners -

Pt2 -

Pt3 -

Fleet -

Advanced -

#59 14-11-09 17:01:14

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

Most of what I will teach learners will be based on the DSA syllabus.

I don't tend to teach part 2 or 3 any more and probably wont go back to it either, but if I did it would tend to be based on what the DSA are looking for.

Anything else, beyond the basic DSA test would be based on Roadcraft rather than the DSA syllabus.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

Offline


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#60 14-11-09 17:10:27

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

Most of what I will teach learners will be based on the DSA syllabus.

I don't tend to teach part 2 or 3 any more and probably wont go back to it either, but if I did it would tend to be based on what the DSA are looking for.

Anything else, beyond the basic DSA test would be based on Roadcraft rather than the DSA syllabus.

Nigel

Hi Nigel,

I appreciate what you are saying but could you expand on what the actual 'SYSTEM' is that you use for the different areas you teach? What levels of students do you currently teach? What happened with the Pt2 & Pt3 work?

Learners System =

Fleet System =

Advanced System =


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#61 14-11-09 17:24:40

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi Nigel,

I appreciate what you are saying but could you expand on what the actual 'SYSTEM' is that you use for the different areas you teach? What levels of students do you currently teach? What happened with the Pt2 & Pt3 work?

Learners System =

Fleet System =

Advanced System =

Ok, by system are you meaning MSPSL and IPSGA?

DSA prefer MSPSL and Roadcraft preaches IPSGA.  I appreciate MSPSL is simply a slightly more rigid version of IPSGA.

As for part 2 & 3, I went through the AA 'Driving Instructor Training' programme but felt I didn't really have the inclination to keep with it once I left the AA.  Perhaps I will return to it at some point but I don't have the confidence to feel that I would be giving a high quality product so I wont do it for the moment.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#62 14-11-09 18:20:34

jlo31
Verified Member
Registered: 17-02-09
Posts: 194
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

Its a been a really interesting thread to read.

What is really impressive is all the experience you have all had. Great to be able to tap in to that experience on this forum.

Keep posting!

Cheers

Jlo31


RoSPA Diploma in Advanced Driving Instruction
IAM Motorcycle
DSA ADI (Car)
DSA Fleet registered trainer (Grade 5)
www.PrecisionDriverTraining.co.

Offline


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#63 15-11-09 07:33:38

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

Nigel,
I have repeated an earlier post as all the answers you require are contained within it.

Before extending the vehicles position on a nearside bend there are a number factors that need careful consideration.

is it safe

is it legal

is it necessary to be there - [img=Verdana]what are you going to achieve.[/img]
There always has to be a reason for being in the position that you are in. Extending into a nearside bend can in certain circumstances increase the vision point and/or straighten out the corner allow the vehicle to take a quicker more stable line. If there is however no advantage to be gained then there is no point in being there.Positioning should be planned well in advance and a smooth line taken (late or sudden steering movements can destabilise the vehicle), if your view is diminishing on the approach then a position of safety has to be adopted (centre of your lane normally).
The positional advantages described above are not as relevant to 'general' driving as they are to driving whilst on response where exemption permit speeds a lot high than the posted limits.Great care should therefore be taken by those IAM an RoSPA drivers as the the consequences of getting it wrong could far out way any advantage gained and be potentially dangerous.


When not using the exemptions afforded to me by driving for the emergency services I very rarely will extend my position to the off side on a nearside corner as there is no reason for me to be there I AM NOT gaining any advantage.
when driving with exemptions because of the higher speeds permitted and the need to make progress then extending in certain circumstances allows higher speeds to be maintained and the driver execute overtakes that would otherwise not be on.
The problem with the general public doing this sort of thing is that  they have not been trained to do it safely, (you Nigel are NOT qualified to do that)  roll also these sort of actions do not meet with other roads users expectations which could and does lead to conflict.
As for the me stating you MUST NOT teaching 'extending' I am not I am merely saying there is no requirement for you do so. :?


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#64 15-11-09 08:41:03

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: Position for Corners.

where's my popcorn?  big_smile

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#65 15-11-09 09:57:41

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

Daz
Do you also have a comfortable seat? big_smile


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

Offline


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#66 15-11-09 10:29:57

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

Nigel,
I have repeated an earlier post as all the answers you require are contained within it.

Before extending the vehicles position on a nearside bend there are a number factors that need careful consideration.

is it safe

is it legal

is it necessary to be there - [img=Verdana]what are you going to achieve.[/img]
There always has to be a reason for being in the position that you are in. Extending into a nearside bend can in certain circumstances increase the vision point and/or straighten out the corner allow the vehicle to take a quicker more stable line. If there is however no advantage to be gained then there is no point in being there.Positioning should be planned well in advance and a smooth line taken (late or sudden steering movements can destabilise the vehicle), if your view is diminishing on the approach then a position of safety has to be adopted (centre of your lane normally).
The positional advantages described above are not as relevant to 'general' driving as they are to driving whilst on response where exemption permit speeds a lot high than the posted limits.Great care should therefore be taken by those IAM an RoSPA drivers as the the consequences of getting it wrong could far out way any advantage gained and be potentially dangerous.

This is basic stuff.  Great care should be taken by ANY driver, not simply IAM or RoSPA drivers!  As I have agreed in other posts, safety must be paramount!

When not using the exemptions afforded to me by driving for the emergency services I very rarely will extend my position to the off side on a nearside corner as there is no reason for me to be there I AM NOT gaining any advantage.
when driving with exemptions because of the higher speeds permitted and the need to make progress then extending in certain circumstances allows higher speeds to be maintained and the driver execute overtakes that would otherwise not be on.

Why would anyone wish to compromise safety if there is no advantage to balance against it?  You talk as if I have said we should be out all the time, regardless.

Why do you feel the need to keep stating teh obvious and appear to be aiming it at me?  I haven't disagreed with the Is it safe etc.

The problem with the general public doing this sort of thing is that  they have not been trained to do it safely, (you Nigel are NOT qualified to do that)  roll

That's an interesting statement.  Who the hell are you to tell me what I am and am not qualified to teach? yikes  I really wonder just who you think you are sometimes!  So often you talk down to and patronise people on here.  It's almost as if you consider yourself so far above us!  roll  I even bring it into learner lessons!  yikes

also these sort of actions do not meet with other roads users expectations which could and does lead to conflict.

I'm prety sure I have agreed with you that it can and does lead to conflict and I have also stated that thet is why these subjects should be brought up in training sessions.  Clients need to be made aware of the risks involved.  They will see drivers performing these manoeuvres out on the road, they will pick up rumours of books such as Roadcraft and read them, they will hear about offsiding and the like on forums but they may not understand the risks involved.  By raising these subjects in discussions whilst training the risks can be talked about and highlighted which may result in one or two drivers giving the manoeuvres more thought before using or deciding against their use.

As for the me stating you MUST NOT teaching 'extending' I am not I am merely saying there is no requirement for you do so. :?

Then you are changing what you said.  Previously you stated...

Leave it to the emergency services ....

I have given, what I consider to be very valid, reasons for disagreeing with you on this.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#67 15-11-09 12:00:16

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi Nigel,

I remember when I first started the driving school in (2002) and had chats with other instructors at test centres (although I did sit in on tests a high % of the time) and a good few of them couldn't understand when I said I used Roadcraft in the car along with the other DSA books and my colourfile presenter. Many suggested i shouldn't be teaching new novice drivers 'advanced driving' and I realised then that many, if not most instructors didn't really understand the use of a 'system' in their driving and teaching and even more were still thinking of 'the old school' advanced driving where 'offsiding' (still prefer opposing carriageway as it makes it very clear during commentary where the car is about to be!)and straighlining roundabouts were all too frequently taught. I have passionately believed since I started out on this route as an ADI that we should teach L drivers to drive to the 'System' and I would explain and expect all our instructors to explain what a 'system' is, why it is crucial to our driving and teaching by showing diagrams from Roadcraft and Driving the essential Skills (or the colourfile) and further, that there is no difference between them:-

Information      - Position - Speed - Gear                                    - Acceleration 

Mirrors - Signal - Position - Speed - Gear - (Look - Assess - Decide - Act)

In the above with L.A.D.A I would obviously say the Look from L.A.D.A starts the moment the driver has seen the actual or potential hazard and continues with as many assessments as required to reach the final decision to then act on it. The MS-PSG-LAD-A is the System I use for all levels of student.

When we look at both systems in pictures or diagrams there is NO difference - hence the reason I say you should be teaching/coaching the same system to all levels of drivers. I have lost count of the number of driving instructors, both trainee and qualified, who have approached us for top-up training or to work with us, who look at me with a blank expression on their face when I ask them to explain the system they use in teaching or driving.

Teaching consistently to this 'System' makes a huge difference in the quality of instructor and driver produced. As well as a very high number of single fault test passes we have had 7 zero fault passes and 3 of them were trained by the same ADI who like me has a good sound understanding and application of the system and the others were by ADIs who had not long achieved their own RoSPA Gold. When RoSPA held the young driver of the year competition, for the last two of them I had a young driver achieve the best overall drive of the day and also a driver achieve best teenage driver of the day.

The system, as far as I am concerned, should immediately roll off the tongue of those who are fully versed in it and more important fully understand it, they shouldn't need a couple of stabs in the dark and then say ...... 'ahhhh....by system , do you mean ........?'

As we have read in this topic a few times, IAM & RoSPA have made it clear for years now that these aspects of positioning should not be taught to members of the general public. As long as you use roadcraft the way it is intended for the general motoring public there is no conflict with DSA and Roadcraft.

If we take 'offsiding' and straightlining roundabouts out of the equation (as good and up to date Advanced Drivers shouldn't really be doing it) it really just leaves positioning to the right of your side of the road (offside) then if this is done when there is a benefit, you will realise there are very few opportunities where there is any real benefit and when it is done, you shouldn't do it when there is, or is a chance of, following, preceeding or opposing traffic. So as long as you are selective when you do it and are doing it for the right reasons then there is also no conflict with DSA. 


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#68 15-11-09 13:29:07

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

.....Many suggested i shouldn't be teaching new novice drivers 'advanced driving'

One reason why I prefer the term 'defensive driving', some drivers/trainers can be turned off immediately by the use of the term 'advanced driving'.

....When we look at both systems in pictures or diagrams there is NO difference

OK, you see NO difference, I see 'little' difference.  I still feel MSPSL is a slightly more rigid implementation of 'The System' which can be beneficial to those starting out on driving.  I prefer IPSGA for those with a little more experience, primarily because diagrams I see showing IPSGA emphasises the fact that the Information phase is a continuous phase that encompases all the other phases.  I have no problem at all with others teaching in theor own style, it was you that appeared to have a problem, though your phraseology now appears to show a little more flexibility and acceptance that others will do things differently and not necessarily wrongly!

....As we have read in this topic a few times, IAM & RoSPA have made it clear for years now that these aspects of positioning should not be taught to members of the general public.

I am not going to keep disputing this.  I have tried to show you that it isn't as clear as you like to make it out to be.  I'll follow the directions I have been guided towards and you follow the directions you have been directed towards.  I wont take your approach and tell others how they must/should do things though!

As long as you use roadcraft the way it is intended for the general motoring public there is no conflict with DSA and Roadcraft.

Page 131 of Driving - The Essential Skills says to keep to the middle of your lane on a left hand bend, Roadcraft suggests moving out towards the right.  Can't give a page number as I don't have Roadcraft to hand just now.

If we take 'offsiding' and straightlining roundabouts out of the equation (as good and up to date Advanced Drivers shouldn't really be doing it)

Then I must be a bad & out of date advanced driver then!  roll  But then am I?  I passed the RoSPA test (Gold) when I was training to become an instructor (2002/2003).  Passed the Diploma in 2004 and the Diploma retest in Oct 2007.  So I can't really be that out of date and I must be a reasonable advanced driver to pass the retest.  Hmmm I wonder if you could possibly be wrong in your assumption that 'good and up to date advanced drivers shouldn't do it'?

it really just leaves positioning to the right of your side of the road (offside) then if this is done when there is a benefit, you will realise there are very few opportunities where there is any real benefit and when it is done, you shouldn't do it when there is, or is a chance of, following, preceeding or opposing traffic. So as long as you are selective when you do it and are doing it for the right reasons then there is also no conflict with DSA.

I still wouldn't want to try it on a part 2 though. wink

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#69 15-11-09 13:41:42

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi Nigel,

I definately wouldn't take this or any of the posts on here personally it is merely reasoned debate and as you have said is, very healthy, not only for the forum, but also driver training generally.

Although I can understand why someone (esp those who have been trained to drive and instruct at police class1 standard) may suggest that you are not qualified to teach someone to go offsiding (opposing carriageway) merely for better views or stability on left-hand bends, it is clear as an instructor we shouldn't be teaching the general public to do that especially when the DSA, IAM & RoSPA also say it shouldn't be done for 'normal' advanced or defensive driving. (again this thing about offsiding should not be confused when looking for the overtake and it is prudent to go offside fully for better views to ensure it is safe for the overtake before fully committing to it)

Are you an active tutor for your local IAM & RoSPA Group and how many people have you trained who have then passed the RoSPA test at Silver and Gold level, the IAM test or the IAM Special Assessment?

Why you 'don't have the confidence to feel that you would be giving a high quality product' in relation to Pt2 training?



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#70 15-11-09 13:43:29

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: Position for Corners.

Daz
Do you also have a comfortable seat? big_smile

yes m8 Im comfy!!!

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#71 15-11-09 13:51:35

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi Nigel,

I definately wouldn't take this or any of the posts on here personally it is merely reasoned debate and as you have said is, very healthy, not only for the forum, but also driver training generally.

Although I can understand why someone (esp those who have been trained to drive and instruct at police class1 standard) may suggest that you are not qualified to teach someone to go offsiding (opposing carriageway) merely for better views or stability on left-hand bends, it is clear as an instructor we shouldn't be teaching the general public to do that especially when the DSA, IAM & RoSPA also say it shouldn't be done for 'normal' advanced or defensive driving. (again this thing about offsiding should not be confused when looking for the overtake and it is prudent to go offside fully for better views to ensure it is safe for the overtake before fully committing to it)

But it is still offsiding or opposing carriageway.

Are you an active tutor for your local IAM & RoSPA Group and how many people have you trained who have then passed the RoSPA test at Silver and Gold level, the IAM test or the IAM Special Assessment?

Semi-active.  Until recently I haven't been able to make the time to do much or attend meetings.  recently though, I have been observing an IAM associate.  I wont observe anyone for the IAM Special Assessment until I get round to taking teh test first.  Though I will probably drop the IAM at group level and concentrate on the local RoSPA group.

Why you 'don't have the confidence to feel that you would be giving a high quality product' in relation to Pt2 training?

I don't have the time to dedicate to it.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#72 15-11-09 14:06:44

jlo31
Verified Member
Registered: 17-02-09
Posts: 194
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

ADI Education wrote:

Daz
Do you also have a comfortable seat? big_smile

yes m8 Im comfy!!!

Me to. Could you pass the popcorn over here?  smile


RoSPA Diploma in Advanced Driving Instruction
IAM Motorcycle
DSA ADI (Car)
DSA Fleet registered trainer (Grade 5)
www.PrecisionDriverTraining.co.

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#73 15-11-09 14:41:00

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi Nigel,

I think this topic originally started with comments about the 'offsiding' for better view and stability, I would suggest that if it is being done as part of a planned overtake then there is actually another reason for it other than ONLY for better view and stability.

I appreciate not training others for IAM Special Assessment if you haven't done it yourself.

I understand you have an IAM associate on the go just now but how many people have you trained who have then passed the RoSPA test at Silver and Gold level or the IAM test?

Cheers, Brian


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#74 15-11-09 14:50:30

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi Nigel,

I think this topic originally started with comments about the 'offsiding' for better view and stability, I would suggest that if it is being done as part of a planned overtake then there is actually another reason for it other than ONLY for better view and stability.

Surely the reason why you would do it as part of a planned overtake for a better view?

I appreciate not training others for IAM Special Assessment if you haven't done it yourself.

I understand you have an IAM associate on the go just now but how many people have you trained who have then passed the RoSPA test at Silver and Gold level or the IAM test?

Cheers, Brian

Zero

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

Offline


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#75 15-11-09 16:47:35

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

I taught my sister to ride her bike with no stabilizers. She got a gold star for that smile

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